Sciencemadness Discussion Board

ammonia generator

sclarenonz - 24-9-2017 at 04:41

https://phys.org/news/2014-08-air-ammoniaone-world-important...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25104378

You can you give an opinion about this method?

[Edited on 24-9-2017 by sclarenonz]

[Edited on 24-9-2017 by sclarenonz]

Attachment: AMMONIA GENERATOR.rtf (37kB)
This file has been downloaded 763 times

JJay - 24-9-2017 at 05:12

It's hard to do efficiently on an amateur scale... if you just want some ammonia gas, you can boil a concentrated solution of ammonia and dry it by passing it through a tube of sodium hydroxide or perhaps calcium oxide.

THANK

sclarenonz - 24-9-2017 at 05:21

THANK YOU, BUT I'M STUDDING A STRONG AND SUSTAINABLE FUEL AMMONIA WAS THE GREAT CHOICE FOR BEING REMOVED FROM THE AIR, I THINK THAT A SMALL AMMONIA GENERATOR IS NOT DIFFICULT, IF YOU CAN READ THIS ITEM AND TELL ME WHAT DO YOU THINK?

"In the absence of the nano-Fe2O3, water is simply electrolyzed into hydrogen at the cathode and oxygen at the anode in the 200°C molten hydroxide chamber. In the presence of nano-Fe2O3, two alternative mechanisms of the ammonia synthesis can be considered. In the first, electrochemical reduction of water to hydrogen occurs at the cathode, which then diffuses to react with adsorbed nitrogen on the nano-Fe2O3 surface to form ammonia. "
"During the last 2 hours of a 200°C (NaOH-KOH) 6-hour, 2 mA cm−2 run, the ammonia production rate fell to 85% of its average value over the first 4 hours"
[Edited on 24-9-2017 by sclarenonz]

[Edited on 24-9-2017 by sclarenonz]

Melgar - 25-9-2017 at 23:49

We already produce millions of tons of ammonia a year, via the Haber-Bosch process. They currently use hydrogen made from steam and natural gas, but hydrogen could be used from, say, the sulfur-iodine cycle (uses thermal energy directly to generate hydrogen) and the hybrid sulfur cycle can both be used to generate hydrogen and oxygen using primarily thermal energy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur%E2%80%93iodine_cycle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_sulfur_cycle

thank

sclarenonz - 28-9-2017 at 06:14

nteresting, did not know about this process, thank you !!
  I'm looking for something simple and can be done at home, I know that the enzyme nitrogenase(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogenase) does this process inside the water, the water itself cools, I put ne a great all of iron, and I put 2 wire strands that I know are made of nickel and steel because they have a lot of malleability, I put my compressor to throw the air that has 70% of nitrogen the air will react with the hydrogen soon after the electrolysis, I joke small pieces of aluminum, that with a solution of 5 mol of naoh and with electricity will generate much hydrogen, the hydrogen will get stuck in the molecule of iron oxide and the nitrogen will get stuck in the same way.WE HAVE TO IMITATE NATURE!!, what do you think about it, I will withdraw after 6 hours of reaction my tube is 1 meter high, I will still see if it will work, this is only theory if someone can help me,

Melgar - 28-9-2017 at 09:09

Nature is actually much worse at fixing nitrogen than humans are. Roughly half of the fixed nitrogen in the ecosystem was fixed by humans, not nature. If you insist on fixing nitrogen in a way that nature does it though, you can generate nitrogen oxide species using electrical sparks. This happens during lightning storms in nature, after all. It is not efficient at all, though. The Haber-Bosch process is MUCH more efficient, but it requires very high temperatures and pressures, and you will not be able to do it at home.

Do you know how important it was for militaries to obtain fixed nitrogen? VERY IMPORTANT! France and England got their fixed nitrogen by controlling access to islands where seabirds nested. They would send boats there and mine these islands, which were covered by thousands of years of accumulated seabird poop. They would then extract the ammonia and nitrates from the seabird poop and use it to make explosives. If it were easy to generate ammonia from nitrogen at home, then someone would have figured out how to do it long before the Haber process was discovered. When Germany finally discovered the Haber process, it allowed them to produced enough explosives to fight wars against France and England, and Germany immediately fought two very large and very well-known wars, against most of the rest of the world. Germany had all the best chemists in the world for most of the 19th century, but was unable to fix atmospheric nitrogen until the 20th century, so don't be surprised if you aren't able to figure out a workable process by yourself with just your own resources.

sclarenonz - 29-9-2017 at 05:18

thanks, yes this is true, but there is another method that looks better:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_nitride
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_nitrite

What do you think about calcium nitride?

my doubt and I know that there is an exit is about a great independence for my life I want a sustainable life and learn to recycle everything I get from nature, in the great proportions you are right, the process haber bosh wins, but in small proportions nature wins , because at the microscob level there are huge amounts of ammonia, imagine if I increased this technology from nature to a larger scale, that's the way I'm thinking, I know there are alternatives that can be done with nothing, and with each passing day old ideas They are being abandoned, it is difficult to accept, but everything is possible.

I'm going to try and wonder how to identify small amounts of ammonia?

[Edited on 29-9-2017 by sclarenonz]

Melgar - 29-9-2017 at 21:10

Okay, if that's what you want, then use lithium nitride instead:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_nitride

I made the mistake of heating lithium in an atmosphere that I THOUGHT it was inert to once, and after the ensuing small red fire, I learned of this fun compound. The bonus of lithium nitride is that lithium metal is much easier to prepare from its salts than calcium is, which facilitates recycling the lithium in a closed-loop process. Lithium nitride will also react with any protic solvent to produce the solvent's lithium salt and ammonia.

sclarenonz - 1-10-2017 at 16:07

Thank you, very interesting, but I was thinking I spend a lot of time and energy, sorry for the simple questions but I am an amateur who is already tired and desperate to leave the local commerce and his financial system, was testing the results with Turmeric told me that it is great for dedecting ammonia is a deep red, tested and turned quite red, but I need to test with other chemicals to see if it turns red. thank my brother

Melgar - 2-10-2017 at 03:34

The easiest test for ammonia is to add a hydroxide salt and smell it. You can smell ammonia quite well even at low concentrations.

You could always get ammonia the way people used to during the middle ages, and leave a bunch of animal scraps mixed with urine in a closed barrel. Or just urine. It would be easier. If you just want fixed nitrogen for fertilizer, then you can grow legumes (soy, alfalfa, peanuts, etc.) on the land, and rotate crops so that the soil doesn't get depleted.

But really, fertilizers like synthetic urea are so cheap, that they will pay for themselves with the increase in yield. It is the benefit and the curse of having a market economy. My dad tried to do what you're considering doing, and tried to do everything the hard way and be self-sufficient, but then what do you do if you injure yourself and get an infection? You have to go to the doctor. And what about when you get cavities in your teeth? Or your equipment breaks? Or some idiot steals your stuff? You need money for all those things, and often considerable amounts of money.

[Edited on 10/2/17 by Melgar]

Sulaiman - 2-10-2017 at 05:04

I read your post a few minutes ago and I was about to recommend HCl gas (vapours from an open bottle) to detect ammonia gas
- white ammonium chloride 'smoke' forms,
but I thought I'd have a go with turmeric ... FANTASTIC !
just a hint of ammonia solution turned a whole test tube of turmeric suspension from yellow/orange to deep red.
A very sensitive indicator.
Turmeric is now a part of my chemistry kit,
and I feel a curcumin (or whatever is the ammonia sensitive compound) extraction is comming soon.
I may also make some turmeric paper indicator strips.

Does anyone know if other chemicals have a similar effect on turmeric that may give false (or equally useful) indications ?

P.S. I read that curcumin changes colour if Boron ions are present, but neither borax nor boric acid gave a significant colour change :(


[Edited on 2-10-2017 by Sulaiman]

Morgan - 2-10-2017 at 05:31

Another use of the smoke effect with just two drops of ammonia makes for a good illustration towards the end of this clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95mCNQnyiBk#t=1m29s

sclarenonz - 2-10-2017 at 06:09

thank you for the great clarification, today it is impossible to live without the money, but I have many friends who went to live in the Amazon and they get everything they want from nature, I remember that my school had no recourse and in the backyard of the school the teacher took the The root of the plant: juglans regia and was a powerful acid-base indicator, but today everything is deforested and I look for this tree and can not find it, how to make some time I go to the forest, live with the Indians and ask where there is this tree:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juglans_regia

but I know it exists in nuts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesculin

the red cabbage is very famous, but it is not specific as the turmeric

I really liked that smoke is enough to make kids fall in love with science, I'll try to do

there is a book that I found very cool, teaches to make potassium nitrate with ash and hot water, I found it very interesting




Attachment: improvised-munitions-handbook.pdf (4.9MB)
This file has been downloaded 416 times


[Edited on 2-10-2017 by sclarenonz]

RogueRose - 2-10-2017 at 07:22

Which would be more effective for generating ammonia gas, heating ammonium sulfate or urea?

Also, if looking to cool the gas down before bubbling through water, how will hot ammonia gas effect copper tubing? I assume that it would make a copper amine complex coating (deep blue color) but would most of the gas pass uncontaminated through into the water? I'm sure stainless tubing would be better, but that is often more expensive I believe..?

sclarenonz - 3-10-2017 at 05:44

Thank you for teaching me how to convert ammonia with hydroxide. This was extraordinary. I did not know. I remember that a very smart person wrote a nitric acid teaching topic about urea or ammonia. He talked about a system very similar to you. is describing, I do not know where this topic is but I saved the picture and you text:

Combustion of ammonia without a catalyst results in: 4NH3 + 3O2 ===> 2N2 + 6H2O, so that it would not work. With a platinum catalyst (some say copper works well), the reaction will be: 4NH3 + 5O2 ===> 4NO + 6H2O. This is the industrial way of producing nitric acid and nitrates. However, in a home environment, this requires very sophisticated equipment or very intelligent design. To give you an idea of ​​how it is, I'll write the rough configuration (which my limited intelligence can think of).
Firstly, you will obviously need the container to make pyrolysis of urea. A flat bottom balloon will work well. 2: A U-shaped glass tube to channel the gases produced into an oxidation chamber with some loose copper catalyst. This chamber may most likely be a three-way flask, one opening being for the gases, the other for placing an air pump to inject air, and the latter leads to another glass tube leading to a glass vase. Both the first and the second balloon have to be heated. The final glass tube takes the gases into a vazo with cold H2O or H2O2, the gases will dissolve, and the air coming from the fish pump goes away
Now, the products produced: Urea Pyrolysis: CO (NH2) 2 ===> NH3 + HCNO. HCNO hydrolyzes in water to produce NH 3 and CO 2, which is in water to form NH 4 CO 3, which reacts with HNO 3 to form NH 4 NO 3. Therefore, its final product is a mixture of HNO 3 and NH 4 NO 3.
If you have glass tubes, a cup, a three-neck vial, thin-wire copper catalysts, a flat bottom flask and a pumped air supply, this might be worth a try. But if you do not have it, it is not worth considering a system formed of metal for large quantities first if it is made with small amounts.


Captura de tela de 2015-12-28 20-15-32.png - 73kB

NEMO-Chemistry - 3-10-2017 at 16:02

Although extremely smelly, I used maggots with alot of sawdust on some road kill, maggots seem to produce alot of ammonia! then its a case of mixing the sawdust with a little water and heating to recover the Ammonia.

I could have purchased the Ammonia, but when i tried it the point was OTC bush type chemistry. Worked ok and i was surprised just how much they produce in 4-5 days, i found if i didnt use the sawdust to absorb the 'juice', the maggots died sometimes in the liquid. If you try it, do it outside well away from humanity!! It stinks really bad, the Ammonia is strong enough to make your eyes water, i used a sealed bucket when i did it.

RogueRose - 3-10-2017 at 20:51

Would the process work with fat scraps (the maggot thing). I know that it gets really nasty smelling after about 4-5 days at room temp - or does it need meat and skin?

What about rendered fat?

Chemetix - 3-10-2017 at 21:03

I think you'd enjoy the Ostwald post if oxidation of ammonia interests you.

https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=71...

NEMO-Chemistry - 4-10-2017 at 03:48

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Would the process work with fat scraps (the maggot thing). I know that it gets really nasty smelling after about 4-5 days at room temp - or does it need meat and skin?

What about rendered fat?

Should work I guess

Havnt you got a spare relative :D

[Edited on 4-10-2017 by NEMO-Chemistry]

e.liska - 4-10-2017 at 04:02

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Would the process work with fat scraps (the maggot thing). I know that it gets really nasty smelling after about 4-5 days at room temp - or does it need meat and skin?

What about rendered fat?


Fat does not contain much nitrogen, I would say you would need lot of proteins to produce ammonia.

Melgar - 4-10-2017 at 04:05

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Would the process work with fat scraps (the maggot thing). I know that it gets really nasty smelling after about 4-5 days at room temp - or does it need meat and skin?

What about rendered fat?

Neither of those have much in the way of protein/nitrogen in them, so you'd get very little ammonia. Back in the old days, they'd use the hooves, horns, hair, and hides, since those are all mostly protein. Fat has plenty of more useful applications.

Incidentally, urea is actually really difficult to extract from urine. It's not nearly as easy as everyone seems to assume.

RogueRose - 4-10-2017 at 05:28

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
Would the process work with fat scraps (the maggot thing). I know that it gets really nasty smelling after about 4-5 days at room temp - or does it need meat and skin?

What about rendered fat?

Neither of those have much in the way of protein/nitrogen in them, so you'd get very little ammonia. Back in the old days, they'd use the hooves, horns, hair, and hides, since those are all mostly protein. Fat has plenty of more useful applications.

Incidentally, urea is actually really difficult to extract from urine. It's not nearly as easy as everyone seems to assume.


I wonder if the "glue factory" could have also been a fertilizer factory as well? I remember hearing about entire horses and road kill from early days being dissolved in large vats of something. Maybe they were making ammonia??

Melgar - 4-10-2017 at 09:09

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
I wonder if the "glue factory" could have also been a fertilizer factory as well? I remember hearing about entire horses and road kill from early days being dissolved in large vats of something. Maybe they were making ammonia??

Until the Haber-Bosch process made ammonia a commodity product, there weren't actually that many uses for it. After all, any form of nitrogen other than N2 can be used as a fertilizer, so after animals would go through the rendering plants, whatever was left over would just be ground up and spread on fields. There wasn't any need to separate it, since plants need phosphates, calcium, sulfur, potassium, etc. too.

Ammonia was used for cleaning and for dying cloth, but that could be obtained by pyrolysis of animal parts, as well as from urine.

sclarenonz - 7-10-2017 at 08:54



Attachment: INSTRUCTIONS for the manufacture saltpetre.docx (35kB)
This file has been downloaded 316 times

NEMO-Chemistry - 7-10-2017 at 12:22

I found this ages ago, thx to the new improved cataloging system on my pc :D, it has reappeared! So I thought as it was kind of on topic I would post it here for you, its all the info you ever need on maggots and ammonia production, might just be me but i found it really interesting, however do keep in mind i am a bit odd.



Attachment: robinson1939.pdf (332kB)
This file has been downloaded 321 times