Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Should I talk to the police before starting my lab?

Should I talk to the police before starting my lab?

DeltaTee - 8-9-2017 at 15:14

Hello all,

I've recently graduated with my B.S. in chemistry from a school that required undergraduate research (with a 50 page thesis) as a requirement for the degree. The project itself was completed successfully (if demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt that the analytical method I was developing could not possibly work counts as a success). As all interesting research projects do, this one led to a spin-off project that I worked on for a couple of weeks but was unable to finish before graduation.

I still want to finish this and potentially publish the results, and have reason to beleive that such a thing can be accomplished using wet chemical techniques (and perhaps a bit of UV-vis spectroscopy later on). I would like to do so during my spare time in a home lab. I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to first let the police in my area know what I'm up to before setting out on the project so they know what's going on and don't ruin my work on a suspicion that I might be up to no good. The fact that I hold a degree in chemistry and am working as an R&D lab tech might lend credibility (in their eyes) to the fact that I am a "real" chemist and pursuing a topic of legitemate research. Alternatively, it could lead to a witch-hunt. Do any of you have thoughts on this?

SWIM - 8-9-2017 at 15:40

I'm betting it could be a problem telling them.
The fact that it relates to earlier research you did as a thesis would be an excellent bit of proof as to what you're up to, but cops might not be impressed. They might think you're trying to outsmart them by telling them you're a legit chemist to hide some nefarious purpose.

Also, many cops think you're some kind of maniac if you're doing home chemistry. Some of the members here have posted about some pretty alarming experiences on the legal and societal issues board.

It depends on your local police and their attitudes toward this kind of thing, and that's mighty hard to discern until you tell them what you're doing. Then it could be too late.

There's another thing. before you think about contacting them check the local fire codes out carefully. I have no idea what you're doing, or what chemicals in what quantities you'll need, but If they call out the fire marshal to check you out it could be a problem. many of the totally legit hobby chemists on here are probably in violation of some of these codes because they are rather draconian in some jurisdictions.

Another thing to consider: Do you own or rent? If the land lord gets contacted by the cops or fire marshal he might evict you because he's afraid (rightly or wrongly) of hazard to his property or the other tenants if it's an apartment.

I'd just try to be as low-profile as possible.

[Edited on 8-9-2017 by SWIM]
clearly_not_atra's post below has a very good point. Talking to a lawyer is a great idea if you can afford it. In addition to straight legal advice a local lawyer is also likely to know if the local cops are reasonable or a bunch of dicks.

[Edited on 9-9-2017 by SWIM]

clearly_not_atara - 8-9-2017 at 18:35

The best thing to do is to talk to a lawyer, who can tell you the legalities of what you're doing and where you should get any necessary permits. If that's too much of an investment, try reading through the local laws and see if you can figure out what office handles permitting for hazardous chemicals. The rank and file cops won't know a whole lot about the law.

NEMO-Chemistry - 14-10-2017 at 06:48

First rule of amateur lab

Dont talk about amateur lab

wg48 - 14-10-2017 at 08:21

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry

First rule of amateur lab

Dont talk about amateur lab

and the second rule is

what amateur lab?

NEMO-Chemistry - 14-10-2017 at 09:42

Quote: Originally posted by wg48

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry

First rule of amateur lab

Dont talk about amateur lab

and the second rule is

what amateur lab?

Second Rule is
Join Sm and talk about it lol

SWIM - 14-10-2017 at 09:43

Getting the amateur lab rules from the Fight Club movie actually works pretty well as an analogy.

I would add that the last of the Fight Club rules sounds almost like aga made it up.

If this is your first time at Sciencemadness,... you HAVE to fight.

NEMO-Chemistry - 14-10-2017 at 09:47

Quote: Originally posted by SWIM

Getting the amateur lab rules from the Fight Club movie actually works pretty well as an analogy.

I would add that the last of the Fight Club rules sounds almost like aga made it up.

If this is your first time at Sciencemadness,... you HAVE to fight.

Or at least recrystallize with pics lol.

Fighting breaks glass ware

Tsjerk - 14-10-2017 at 10:02

I think the biggest problem would be is that the police will not have the vaguest clue what you're talking about. So every scientific detail you use to prove you're legit will sound like a foreign language to them. They would have to believe you on your nice smile and your BSc, which they probably won't.

amaming - 14-10-2017 at 15:37

If you write up all your stuff and always have a lot of textbooks and smart people stuff around you'll be fine. I've had the police and various people come around to look at mine in the past, and the biggest problem is that they didn't understand what I was up to or didn't think I did either (partially true). If you have a bunch of smart people stuff around and pay big attention to safety and practicality, I think you'll generally be trusted not to fuck up. There's nothing illegal about having a lab, you just have to not do illegal stuff in it, and make sure that everyone else knows it.

Corrosive Joeseph - 14-10-2017 at 15:43

Quote: Originally posted by DeltaTee

Do any of you have thoughts on this?

Don't ever tell those b@st@rds anything............. They wouldn't understand anyways

/CJ

Tsjerk - 14-10-2017 at 18:03

Also probably an important question; in what country do you live?

Reboot - 1-11-2017 at 19:10

I'm in the process of slowly building a cute little tinkering lab and I actually did ask my lawyer if I shouldn't just introduce myself to local law enforcement so there wouldn't be any misunderstandings. His advice was that most police won't appreciate the thought of a 'personal' chem lab in their city and an investigation can be a big problem even if you're innocent, so it would probably be best to just stay under the radar. If they don't know you're there, they can't suspect you of something improper and cause you trouble.

Part of me resents the idea that we should have to stay hidden. But, I can see the wisdom of it. So, the first part of my 'plan' is to mind my own business and be a good neighbor (no weird smells, etc.) The second part of the plan is to do things properly, treating my little hobby the same way I would run a lab at work, with proper storage (like safety cabinets for solvents), SDS sheets, fire extinguishers, lab notebook, inventory lists, excellent housekeeping, etc. If the boys in blue do ever come knocking, they're going to find something clean, respectable (maybe even a bit cute.)

One of the things that has impressed me is the idea of 'the clothes make the man'. People have powerful, deeply rooted assumptions of how respectable people and things 'should' present themselves. Make sure your lab looks like the home of a responsible and respectable tinkerer, not the fever dream of a meth-head. :-)

JJay - 2-11-2017 at 09:24

If they want to talk to you, they'll let you know.

charley1957 - 2-11-2017 at 10:44

I live in a very small town with close-by neighbors. I knew smells, occasional smoke and other things might get the neighbors excited and have them call the law. So I did it first, dragged them all through the lab, opened all the cabinets and drawers to let them see everything. I showed them my write-ups, the books I study and the ones I was working from. I explained that I was doing this for the sake of the love of chemistry. As others said earlier, it certainly didn’t hurt that the place was clean and organized. Texas requires a permit for certain glassware, or so I’ve been told, but I don’t have any permits and they didn’t ask me for any. But they could certainly tell by the look of the place that I’m not a dope cook. I agree with other members that it certainly helps in how you present yourself and your lab.
This isn’t to say that you’ll have the same result I did, especially if you live in a larger city where illicit drug manufacturers are a problem. But I think that this is one time where a little “advance PR” might avert a situation where someone calls you in and the cops already have their minds made up when they get there that you’re a meth cook and they trash the place and haul you off to jail without you being able to explain yourself. Whatever you do, be safe and above all have fun!

Texium - 2-11-2017 at 10:58

Quote: Originally posted by charley1957

Texas requires a permit for certain glassware, or so I’ve been told, but I don’t have any permits and they didn’t ask me for any. But they could certainly tell by the look of the place that I’m not a dope cook. I agree with other members that it certainly helps in how you present yourself and your lab.

That's good to hear! I always figured that was the case, but the unease of not having the permits has still always been in the back of my mind.

NEMO-Chemistry - 2-11-2017 at 12:52

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Quote: Originally posted by charley1957

That's good to hear! I always figured that was the case, but the unease of not having the permits has still always been in the back of my mind.

What glass ware is supposed to have a permit? I got a friend who works for silicon labs (actually a sub company, energy micro) in Austin Texas, he has a home lab and no permits.

He said something about what us Brits call a conical flask, needs a permit. Forget what you call them over there, i suggest you buy from the UK, that way you get conical flask stamped on the box

.

Seriously though having seen your lab, your a long way off a meth cook profile. I think permits would only come into play if you upset them, and they wanted any excuse to make life hard for you.

Considering your background as a mod here etc etc, its going to be tough to prove your upto no good.

blackspirit - 24-1-2018 at 04:39

I once inquired about a matter of chemistry from local PD and they were mostly like wtf are you asking this from us, we don't know anything about such things.

wg48 - 24-1-2018 at 07:09

Quote: Originally posted by NEMO-Chemistry

Considering your background as a mod here etc etc, its going to be tough to prove your upto no good.

But it will cost him a lot of time and money to defend a charge even if he is not guilty.

PirateDocBrown - 24-1-2018 at 09:05

Talking about law with cops is like talking about surgery with a butcher.

Ozone - 24-1-2018 at 10:16

I'd recommend that you avoid calling unnecessary attention to yourself.

O3

karlos³ - 24-1-2018 at 10:46

I concur with the common opinion on this matter, don´t talk with the police ever!
That´s what lawyers are for.
Cops will just twist everything around in their favour what you say to them, trying to construct a charge out of it...

Also, keep your hobby a secret as much as possible, because others will for sure start jokingly mention your bomb/meth lab, "friend"(more like acquintances), people who don´t grasp the concept of this hobby at all, and not knowing how much damage such a behaviour could cause.
And the cops don´t care about your legal status, all they know is they probably will receive a raise after they busted a lab.
No matter that it was just a harmless chemistry lab, and not a drug kitchen or bomb workshop... A lab is a lab, right?

Cops aren´t your friendly helper, actually they´re quite the opposite of it, street pirates disguised as public servants...

But contacting a lawyer in advance, that would be a wise move, even if it may cost a little, it will come handy if there is ever any kind of trouble.
This way he knows about your projects already, very helpful to have someone already convinced and informed about the real nature of your hobby.
Especially someone with this profession, thats worth it totally to have one consulted, informed and in the worst case if it ever comes to this, ready to defend you too.

diddi - 24-1-2018 at 12:49

i definately agree with the advise to not brag/talk openly about your lab. I was advised by the police that there have been cases of educated chemists being extorted to cook for criminals. eg they discover you have a secret or they kidnap a pet etc

[Edited on 24-1-2018 by diddi]

Sulaiman - 24-1-2018 at 13:17

I do chemistry as a hobby in UK,
I wish that I had an EPP license but it seems that there is no chance of being granted one,
so I operate on the assumption that if I make no trouble for anyone,
the police would not want to waste their time on me and my hobby.

As I have no answer to terrorism and acid-in-the-face throwers, I have to support the current paranoia,
Hopefully we will soon be an independant progressive nation and science will be celebrated.
(I expect this enlightenment to occur shortly after I publish my unified field theory)

[Edited on 24-1-2018 by Sulaiman]

Magpie - 24-1-2018 at 14:46

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

I concur with the common opinion on this matter, don´t talk with the police ever!
That´s what lawyers are for.
Cops will just twist everything around in their favour what you say to them, trying to construct a charge out of it...

Also, keep your hobby a secret as much as possible, because others will for sure start jokingly mention your bomb/meth lab, "friend"(more like acquintances), people who don´t grasp the concept of this hobby at all, and not knowing how much damage such a behaviour could cause.
And the cops don´t care about your legal status, all they know is they probably will receive a raise after they busted a lab.
No matter that it was just a harmless chemistry lab, and not a drug kitchen or bomb workshop... A lab is a lab, right?

I agree with most of this advice. But over the 15 years I have done this hobby I have relaxed a bit on who I show my lab to. Most are just amazed at my lab and equipment. Cook/terrorist jokes just are minimal, just someone looking for a cheap laugh. My brother asked "where do you get all these wonderful toys?" (a la the Joker in Batman.) I am a 75 year old retired chemical engineer. My friends and associates are mostly of the same age. They are well educated and sophisticated, not inclined to gossip or joke at my expense.

I have never talked to a lawyer, but I know who I would call.

NEMO-Chemistry - 24-1-2018 at 19:11

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie

Quote: Originally posted by karlos³

Thats a great example of profiling, from a cops view point....75 years and no record, been a pro and now retired likes to dabble.

Compared with 17+ known to local police for larking about and hanging around in crowds of youngsters.
No convictions but is known to have friends with a long list of them. Dosnt have a job and never has had one......

Which one you going to visit??

[obviously, if it was us, then Magpie! But pretend your a copper]

I will update my thread shortly, I did get another visit. I now know for sure all about the police experts :O, I would post now but waiting to hear something back first.

I dont want to update until I am certain it isnt going to annoy my visitors.

I have changed my advice though, if your messing with Nitric etc, then you need to think about it, if your not and your closer to Magpies profile than the kid, then keep your mouth shut.

If your the kid..........Get rid the chemistry stuff, or make sure you get your shit together.

At least in the UK, i can assure you that the police, DO NOT react the way you think they would, and they dont act the way you would like.

I am legit and licensed by virtue of a company with the correct SIC numbers, and the shit I have been getting from them, seriously starting to consider folding the company and sticking to baking powder.

The jersey rebel - 15-3-2018 at 20:09

Here’s my advice. Keep your lab on the DL. It was a pain in the ass when my high school realized I was an am-Chemist, I can’t imagine what pain the cops would cause you. They aren’t there to give you advice, they’re there to make convictions. If you’re concerned about the regulations, go to your state’s legislative site and have a good look at housing/zoning and chemical regulations. It’ll tell you most of what you need to know. If you’re not satisfied with the results, do go to a lawyer.

I was lucky enough to be in a small suburb that you can throw a stone and it’ll land in a different town, in my case, cherry hill. the police knew me quite well as I was locally famous as that science loving autistic kid with a peaceful demeanor that lets people know my occasional psychotic temper tantrums were not intentional, I just couldn’t express myself until I was well into high school

sodium_stearate - 15-3-2018 at 23:15

Maintain a low profile.

froot - 16-3-2018 at 00:02

How big, noisy or smelly will your lab be?

Consider the type of person that would choose law enforcement as a career. Finding one that would be enlightened and supportive of your endeavour I would consider to be like finding a cardinal in a brothel. Not saying they're all bad people but they will consider an oddity to the norm like a home lab to be worth suspicious and untrusting attention. You may come out the other end of an investigation poorer but 'ok' and then again, you may not.

99% labs will require a listed reagent and that's how they'll burst your bubble because it's easier to enforce the law on standard issue citizens and not anomalies like you/us. They don't like uphills.

If you want to keep this above the radar it may be worth renting a small space in an industrial zone. Update your compliance for the reagents you require and whatever license for your lab. Hopefully the costs will be comparable to lawyers fees and whatnot if the other route is taken.

Can the institution where you qualified not give you access to some lab space? Bottle of whiskey included in there somewhere....

Learned Foot - 4-4-2018 at 04:18

Disclosure: I'm new to the board, and just getting back into amateur chemistry, but my day job is attorney.

NEVER SPEAK TO THE POLICE WITHOUT YOUR ATTORNEY PRESENT!

In Castlerock v. Gonzalez the Court made it clear that the police are not there to protect you. The following is oversimplified, but have you ever noticed that a Miranda warning says "anything you say can be used against you"? However, Miranda does not say that your statements can be used "for you." That is in part because there is a specific exception to the rule against hearsay for statements made against your own interest. In other words there is a measure of reliability when you say something to the police that would incriminate, but most people will lie to get out of trouble. Generally, under the rules of evidence, what a defendant says to the police cannot be used to prove innocence. For this reason say nothing to the police or at least have your attorney present when talking to the police.

Nearly all of my clients facing criminal charges, do so because they spoke to the police.

So in answer to the question of this thread, should you talk to the police about your lab? No, unless there is some legal requirement to do so, and if there is some reason to speak to the police let your attorney do the talking.

j_sum1 - 4-4-2018 at 05:46

Disclaimer noted.
These things do vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Where I live you are more likely to attract difficulty by keeping infomation from the police. Obvious non-disclosure will arouse suspicion and result in a deeper and more forceful investigation in most feasible circumstances.
This thread is specifically related to the UK which is in a state of transition with respect to the regulations and practices pertaining to hobby chemistry.

Learned Foot - 4-4-2018 at 06:20

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

Disclaimer noted.
These things do vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.
Where I live you are more likely to attract difficulty by keeping infomation from the police. Obvious non-disclosure will arouse suspicion and result in a deeper and more forceful investigation in most feasible circumstances.
This thread is specifically related to the UK which is in a state of transition with respect to the regulations and practices pertaining to hobby chemistry.

I agree that the issue varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. However, my advice still stands, if you are required to disclose, have an attorney or solicitor contact the police for you or at least consult one to protect your rights. In other words, in my view, criminals never get an attorney BEFORE the police are involved.

However, I could not see a reference to DeltaTee's jurisdiction, so my apologies for assuming US jurisdiction is relevant. If UK is the default jurisdiction, I am a US attorney, I will spend my time elsewhere.

j_sum1 - 4-4-2018 at 06:32

Quote: Originally posted by Learned Foot

However, I could not see a reference to DeltaTee's jurisdiction, so my apologies for assuming US jurisdiction is relevant. If UK is the default jurisdiction, I am a US attorney, I will spend my time elsewhere.

My error. I was mistaking this thread for another one related to the UK.
Do stick around. Your thoughts are appreciated. We do discuss legal matters quite regularly and having someone with some expertise can only be a good thing.