Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Important chemicals for a start up lab what to get and what not to get

BILLBUILDS - 17-8-2017 at 20:22

Ive been looking at websites or ebay ect. for chemicals to but, the problem is i dont know which ones are important for a lab and which are just by products of other reactions.

please post what chemicals are needed and what is just. ill start a list and hopefully we can get a good list of what to get when your starting a lab and what ever lab should have. please help me come up with more for the list. i cant do all of it and feel free to take one off if you think its unnecessary


Solvents
methanol
ethanol
ether
DCM
hexane
cyclohexane
toluene
ethyl acetate
THF
acetone
DMF
DMSO
nitromethane



Acids
hydrochloric
sulfuric
nitric
phosphoric
benzoic

bases
sodium hydroxide
ammonia
potassium hydoxide


powdered metals
cobalt
iron
aluminium
copper
nickel
lead
chromium

elements
sulphur
iodine




Compounds
ammonium chloride
ammonium nitrate
ammonium bisulfate
ammonium
sodium chloride
sodium sulphate
sodium bisulfate
sodium thiosulphate
sodium bromide
sodium carbonate
sodium metabisulfite
sodium sulfite
sodiummetabisulfite


carbon/charcoal
calcium oxide]
calcium nitrate
copper sulfate
copper nitrate
copper chloride
iron oxide (II)
iron oxide (III)
iron chloride
iron chloride
lead oxide (I)
lead oxideV)
lead nitrate
lead oxide

j_sum1 - 17-8-2017 at 21:01

As always, it depends entirely on what you are doing.
I have seen chemplayer do all sorts of amazing chemistry but I don't think I have seen him use FeO once.
What do you need powdered cobalt for?

The way to approach this question is to make a list of the investigations and experiments you want to do and work out what chemicals are needed. Add to that some mineral acids some bases some oxidisers (H2O2) some reducers (NaHSO3) and some dehydrating agents.
Build up your stocks (a) as you pursue new investgations and (b) as opportunities to purchase come up (cash and availability).

Cryolite. - 17-8-2017 at 21:12

It's not clear why you want such a wide assortment of organic solvents when it looks like the chemistry you're interested is primarily inorganic. Do you have any specific expected using for, say, nitromethane or DCM?

Sulaiman - 18-8-2017 at 03:26

As a youth I enjoyed chemistry at school and it was a hobby for a couple of years,
Just over three years ago I started hobby chemistry, It started with a little electroplating and grew.

As a youth i wanted quickfit glassware but of course could not afford it,
in compensation I am now the proud owner of an excessive quantity of shiny jointed glassware.
(in my defence - except for the newest piece, all have been used)

Soon after starting hobby chemistry I joined this site where I got a little over-enthusiastic
- I was buying chemicals just because they were mentioned here in topical SM threads,
without really considering what I would actually need, or be able to use sensibly,
... so I have a rather eclectic collection of chemicals - some in unopened containers :(

My initial thoughts were that it is best to have a wide range of reagents available - to cover all possible needs :P
Not practical - I'd need a chemical warehouse to have any reagent required on-hand.
So, to cut a long story short;

. if funding is not a problem buy anything and everything that you fancy.

. better would be to plan a few experiments ahead and buy just what you need for that, plus spare, and your kit will slowly grow.

...................................................................................
Another of my 'faults' is that I buy 500g or 1l where 10g or 50ml are required - to have spare, but mostly due to postal costs, for a little bit more cash I get a lot more stuff
- that I may never use :D
- but need to store, and someday dispose of.

There is more than one thread currently active on this subject,
this topic will never die as as there is no such thing as a 'universal' chemistry kit - the topic is too wide

clearly_not_atara - 18-8-2017 at 14:19

It's really dependent on what you *can* get. For example you probably don't need ethanol, acetone, nitromethane or EtOAc, and in all likelihood you only need one of DMF and DMSO. Alkanes like hexane and cyclohexane are basically special-purpose and in most cases you could just use petroleum ether. Benzoic acid, cobalt/copper/lead powders and most of those salts are a waste of time unless you have a use in mind.

I would recommend acetonitrile and tert-butanol which have useful and unique properties but maybe you won't actually use them. It's good to have a bromide around I guess. Triflic acid is worth buying since it's hard to make. Ditto triphenylphosphine. Thiophenol can also come in handy as can ethylenediamine. I'm guessing DBU and calcium hydride would be nice to have around. Trifluoroacetic acid is also worth looking out for. And tetrahydroxydiboron can do some things nothing else will. And ceric ammonium nitrate is pretty useful as is samarium diiodide. While you're at it pick up some Red-Al. But again who knows what you're gonna do with this stuff?

BILLBUILDS - 19-8-2017 at 12:25

the point of this topic is to work out what is needed and what is just junk left over from reactions. my list is just what i could think of in the 10 minutes i had. HELP making a good list would be better than flaming because i got one i didn't know was crap in there

post like

add in tin chloride and remove the cobalt powder would be much more useful

BILLBUILDS - 19-8-2017 at 12:27

the point of this topic is to work out what is needed and what is just junk left over from reactions. my list is just what i could think of in the 10 minutes i had. HELP making a good list would be better than flaming because i got one i didn't know was crap in there

post like

add in tin chloride and remove the cobalt powder would be much more useful

clearly_not_atara - 19-8-2017 at 13:36

If you want tin chloride, get tin chloride. What are you going to do with tin chloride?

The problem with the question is that it doesn't make sense. Nobody is "flaming" you. A chemical is only useful if you have something to use it for. There is no "good list".
Quote:
and what is just junk left over from reactions


Is that list of salts actually your rxn leftovers? Keep sulfur anions, bromides, nitrates, CaO, anhydrous transition metal salts, and salts of rare metals (eg copper), if you have room for them. Forget sodium chloride, iron oxide, and other stuff that's really common. Ammonium sulfate for example is for sale at hardware stores, so there's no need to save it.

[Edited on 19-8-2017 by clearly_not_atara]

CharlieA - 19-8-2017 at 17:19

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
As a youth I enjoyed chemistry at school and it was a hobby for a couple of years,
Just over three years ago I started hobby chemistry, It started with a little electroplating and grew.

As a youth i wanted quickfit glassware but of course could not afford it,
in compensation I am now the proud owner of an excessive quantity of shiny jointed glassware.
(in my defence - except for the newest piece, all have been used)

Soon after starting hobby chemistry I joined this site where I got a little over-enthusiastic
- I was buying chemicals just because they were mentioned here in topical SM threads,
without really considering what I would actually need, or be able to use sensibly,
... so I have a rather eclectic collection of chemicals - some in unopened containers :(

My initial thoughts were that it is best to have a wide range of reagents available - to cover all possible needs :P
Not practical - I'd need a chemical warehouse to have any reagent required on-hand.
So, to cut a long story short;

. if funding is not a problem buy anything and everything that you fancy.

. better would be to plan a few experiments ahead and buy just what you need for that, plus spare, and your kit will slowly grow.

...................................................................................
Another of my 'faults' is that I buy 500g or 1l where 10g or 50ml are required - to have spare, but mostly due to postal costs, for a little bit more cash I get a lot more stuff
- that I may never use :D
- but need to store, and someday dispose of.

There is more than one thread currently active on this subject,
this topic will never die as as there is no such thing as a 'universal' chemistry kit - the topic is too wide


Just getting the chemicals/apparatus you need for your next planned project that you plan is great advice. (If you need a common chemical e.g. NaOH, then you can get a larger amount of that).

I share the fault of buying more than I need of something just because the postage is the same or cheaper for a larger amount.
I think I would be better served to plan my experiments in quantities of 5-50g.

Excellent advice, Sulaiman!

CharlieA

Sulaiman - 19-8-2017 at 23:49

Quote: Originally posted by CharlieA  
I share the fault of buying more than I need of something just because the postage is the same or cheaper for a larger amount.
I think I would be better served to plan my experiments in quantities of 5-50g.


I'll be watching the "Last chemical order?" thread to see if you can resist buying in more economical quantities,
small quantities, just what you need, not what you may need lots more of in future :D
I doubt that I will take my own advice in this respect :P

__________________________________________________
regarding the original post;

In my opinion, once you have H2SO4, OTC supplies, a strong base, oxidiser and reducer, electrodes and electricity, glassware, heat and water,
almost anything else in non-organic chemistry can be synthesized.
So it is a very personal choice.

[Edited on 20-8-2017 by Sulaiman]

Melgar - 20-8-2017 at 23:06

You can probably ditch most of the transition metal nitrate salts (with the exception of silver nitrate), or add HCl to them and evaporate until you have just the chloride salt left. Nitrate ions tend to interfere with reactions, so are less desirable.

You don't need sodium sulfite if you have sodium metabisulfite, and sodium sulfite is the less useful one anyway. (If you really needed it, you could react metabisulfite with NaOH) THF is basically a higher-boiling, water-miscible version of diethyl ether. Diethyl ether is the more useful one.

Avoid water-soluble lead salts, if possible.

Personally, I LIKE having nitromethane and DMF on hand. Not necessarily as solvents, but to test reactions that are purported to work with amides and nitro groups, and I wouldn't have anything with those functional groups if not for those two reagents. Ethyl acetate too, for that matter, as an example of a prototypical ester.

[Edited on 8/21/17 by Melgar]

JJay - 21-8-2017 at 06:20

You definitely want a good selection of analytical reagents like bromothymol blue, phenylanthranilic acid, potassium iodate, potassium dichromate, standardized sodium hydroxide, standardized acids, etc.

woelen - 21-8-2017 at 07:08

Quote:
You can probably ditch most of the transition metal nitrate salts (with the exception of silver nitrate), or add HCl to them and evaporate until you have just the chloride salt left. Nitrate ions tend to interfere with reactions, so are less desirable.

This is not correct. For many reactions, nitrates are more suitable than chloride. Chlorides tend to form complexes with many transition metals. Nitrates at medium and high pH are nearly inert in aqueous solution. You need very strong reductors to get a reaction with nitrate. Only at very low pH and at high concentration of acids you get reactions with nitrate ions.
The best common inert anion in aqueous solution is perchlorate, the next best is sulfate, and then in my opinion comes nitrate, before chloride. Acetate can also be useful, but it also has a tendency to form complexes with many metal ions.
Quote:
Triflic acid is worth buying since it's hard to make. Ditto triphenylphosphine. Thiophenol can also come in handy as can ethylenediamine. I'm guessing DBU and calcium hydride would be nice to have around. Trifluoroacetic acid is also worth looking out for. And tetrahydroxydiboron can do some things nothing else will. And ceric ammonium nitrate is pretty useful as is samarium diiodide. While you're at it pick up some Red-Al. But again who knows what you're gonna do with this stuff?

Is this a joke? For an advanced home chemist these certainly may be useful, but the beginning and even many more advanced home chemists do not need these chemicals, except for maybe a very specific reaction.

What to start a lab with can indeed not be answered in general, it depends on what you want to do. Some things you can do at home:
- inorganic chemistry (redox reactions, coordination complexes, reactions with gases)
- pyrotechnics (beware: in many countries this is severely limited, or even forbidden)
- organic chemistry (synthesis of new organic compounds, extractions of oils or alkaloids from plants, perfumes)

I myself do mostly inorganic chemistry, and for that specific case I have written a webpage with some guidelines for starting a home lab which allows you to do many interesting experiments to start with and which also serves as a nice basis to build upon:

http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/misc/homelab.html

If you are a real starter/beginner, then my advice is to start with inorganic chemistry. It requires less advanced glassware and a lot of interesting chemistry can be done in water (aqueous solutions), while in organic chemistry for most interesting experiments you need some solvent (some of which are quite toxic and volatile) and more advanced glassware like a distillation setup and all kinds of tubing.

Melgar - 21-8-2017 at 12:23

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Quote:
You can probably ditch most of the transition metal nitrate salts (with the exception of silver nitrate), or add HCl to them and evaporate until you have just the chloride salt left. Nitrate ions tend to interfere with reactions, so are less desirable.

This is not correct. For many reactions, nitrates are more suitable than chloride. Chlorides tend to form complexes with many transition metals. Nitrates at medium and high pH are nearly inert in aqueous solution. You need very strong reductors to get a reaction with nitrate. Only at very low pH and at high concentration of acids you get reactions with nitrate ions.
The best common inert anion in aqueous solution is perchlorate, the next best is sulfate, and then in my opinion comes nitrate, before chloride. Acetate can also be useful, but it also has a tendency to form complexes with many metal ions.

I was thinking about it in terms of electroplating and metal displacements, since that's what most of my experience has been with transition metals. And I guess for those reactions in particular, chlorides are preferred since they prevent oxide layers from forming on metals, unlike nitrates which do the opposite. Still, you see chloride salts used in journal articles far more than any other salts (sulfates are probably second), and almost never see nitrate salts except for silver. Maybe we're just reading different journals though?

As far as perchlorate being the most inert though, I thought it was supplanted by borofluoride?

woelen - 21-8-2017 at 12:43

Tetraborofluoride is even less coordinating, but it also is much less common. For the average starting home chemist I think that sulfate ion is the best and the easiest accessible. Nitrate and chloride also are quite accessible, unfortunately perchlorates are more difficult to obtain.

For the specific use case of electroplating, indeed the chlorides are more common (here the coordinating properties of chloride are put to good use), but for general chemistry I believe that nitrates are preferrable over chlorides. Sulfates are preferrable over nitrates, except for Pb, Ca, Sr, Ba and to a lesser extent Ag, due to low solubility.

If you are a more advanced home chemist and want a greater diversity of experiments, then it is good to have both sulfates and chlorides, or nitrates and chlorides, but this is not necessary for a beginner.

BILLBUILDS - 27-8-2017 at 16:58

This is basically my way of buying chems
Quote: Originally posted by CharlieA  
Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
As a youth I enjoyed chemistry at school and it was a hobby for a couple of years,
Just over three years ago I started hobby chemistry, It started with a little electroplating and grew.

As a youth i wanted quickfit glassware but of course could not afford it,
in compensation I am now the proud owner of an excessive quantity of shiny jointed glassware.
(in my defence - except for the newest piece, all have been used)

Soon after starting hobby chemistry I joined this site where I got a little over-enthusiastic
- I was buying chemicals just because they were mentioned here in topical SM threads,
without really considering what I would actually need, or be able to use sensibly,
... so I have a rather eclectic collection of chemicals - some in unopened containers :(

My initial thoughts were that it is best to have a wide range of reagents available - to cover all possible needs :P
Not practical - I'd need a chemical warehouse to have any reagent required on-hand.
So, to cut a long story short;

. if funding is not a problem buy anything and everything that you fancy.

. better would be to plan a few experiments ahead and buy just what you need for that, plus spare, and your kit will slowly grow.

...................................................................................
Another of my 'faults' is that I buy 500g or 1l where 10g or 50ml are required - to have spare, but mostly due to postal costs, for a little bit more cash I get a lot more stuff
- that I may never use :D
- but need to store, and someday dispose of.

There is more than one thread currently active on this subject,
this topic will never die as as there is no such thing as a 'universal' chemistry kit - the topic is too wide


Just getting the chemicals/apparatus you need for your next planned project that you plan is great advice. (If you need a common chemical e.g. NaOH, then you can get a larger amount of that).

I share the fault of buying more than I need of something just because the postage is the same or cheaper for a larger amount.
I think I would be better served to plan my experiments in quantities of 5-50g.

Excellent advice, Sulaiman!