Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Decarboxylation of amino acids (phenylalanine, tryptophan) in various solvents

Melgar - 12-6-2017 at 14:57

I've read a lot of relevant threads on this board, as well as various papers, regarding the decarboxylation of amino acids. Spearmint oil (cavrone) seemed to keep coming up as a good catalyst, due to its high boiling point and the enone functionality.

My first test was to see if solvent-free conditions could work. Strictly speaking, it wouldn't be entirely solvent-free. A small amount of the liquid catalyst would be used as the solvent initially, and as the amino acid was decarboxylated, it could act as a solvent for more of the solid amino acid. Additional quantities of the amino acid could be added as the contents liquefied, and of the available amino acids, the amine products of phenylalanine and tryptophan would appear to be liquid at decarboxylation temperatures. Testing this appeared to confirm that it would work; phenylalanine bubbled vigorously and turned yellow when carefully heated over a flame with spearmint oil in a test tube. Almost all of the phenylalanine in the test tube was successfully decarboxylated in this manner. A test with larger amounts was less clean, however. Bubbles from the decarboxylation would push the amino acid away from the flask walls, and the mixture of amine and amino acid would solidify if significant amounts of amino acid were still present. It could possibly be done with a more even heat source, or under microwave irradiation, provided it was done in a flask that allowed for venting of the evolved CO2 while preventing oxygen from entering the flask. However, this test did seem to indicate that only a small quantity of solvent should be needed, and then only enough to wet the mixture. The resulting amines would be liquid and could function as solvent for the reaction after decarboxylation.

The next step was choosing a solvent. I went through my solvents and selected the ones with a boiling point well above water's. That gave me mineral oil, dimethylformamide, DMSO, tetrachloroethylene, glycerin, propylene glycol, and n-butanol. I ended up testing DMSO, glycerin, and propylene glycol, because they had known boiling points that were the highest. In each case, a few drops of spearmint oil were added to a test tube, then amino acid powder was added, then the solvent was added until it wetted the entire powder mass. The test tube was then carefully heated over a methanol flame.

Glycerin performed the worst. Even hot, it was too thick for bubbles to escape quickly enough to allow the decarboxylation to proceed at a favorable rate.

Propylene glycol performed quite well. Large quantities of CO2 gas evolved, although darker-colored amine complexes did gradually form. Decarboxylation was hampered by the amino acid's tendency to float, which made it difficult to accelerate the reaction.

DMSO actually worked very well, and perhaps the best of all of them, despite the spearmint oil forming a layer on the surface. Apparently, the small amount that did dissolve was enough to catalyze the reaction sufficiently. Also, dimethyl sulfide evolved, but only a small amount. I actually kind of liked the smell, it smelled like Eastern European food, and reminded me of my Grandma's cooking. The amino acid probably added a meaty smell to it that reminded me of food, in any case.

I had a flask of tryptophan in xylene, with a catalytic amount of spearmint oil added, that I had attempted to decarboxylate earlier, without luck. The boiling point was too low to allow decarboxylation to occur at any significant rate. To this, I added about 1/4 its volume of DMSO, and heated. Bumping immediately became a problem, despite never having been a problem before. Not sure what to do, I added another catalytic amount of spearmint oil. This actually solved the problem entirely; apparently the catalyst is deactivated somehow by the amino acid over the period of 1-2 weeks or less. Still, this allowed the entire amount of tryptophan to be decarboxylated over the course of a few hours. After it cooled, a darker oil collected at the bottom of the flask, with both layers being a shade of orange. I'm guessing that the bottom layer was amine that didn't dissolve in xylene? When hot, they seemed to be miscible.

I haven't done the workup yet, but figured that since a few other people here have posted about decarboxylation reactions, I'd put down some of my findings in case it interested anyone. DMSO and spearmint oil seemed to work best, which is a combination I hadn't heard of before. Propylene glycol with spearmint oil also worked well, and would probably make for an easier workup. Both solvents are also available OTC in large quantities, at a low cost.

[Edited on 6/13/17 by Melgar]

AvBaeyer - 13-6-2017 at 02:50

Melgar,

Nice post. A note of caution, which I think you have already recognized, without isolation and identification of the reaction products, it is premature to claim the new conditions "worked." The presence of gas bubbles is indicative of decarboxylation, but was there further reaction of the amine in these reactions? DMSO at elevated temperature always gives me suspicions. I find your report quite interesting and await further details.

AvB

Melgar - 13-6-2017 at 07:13

Part of the reason that I chose these two amino acids is their characteristic colors and odors, and SWIM's... uh, heh heh, I mean MY past familiarity with them. Do nostalgic flashbacks to 2007-2008 count as evidence for their successful formation?

As far as DMSO, I gradually increased temperature until decarboxylation proceeded at a satisfactory rate, which was well below its boiling point. I didn't record temperature at the time, since the only thermometer immediately available was stainless steel, and these reactions were small-scale proof-of-concept tests that I didn't want to contaminate with metals. I did measure the bath temperature, and both reactions were running well below 150˚C. Reaction progress was easy to monitor, since both amino acids were sparingly soluble in the solvents I used, but amines were liquid at decarboxylation temperatures, as well as at room temperature. Additionally, I have PEA hydrochloride to test against at least for the phenylacetaldehyde decarboxylation product.

Corrosive Joeseph - 3-8-2017 at 01:18

Any update on this............?


/CJ

CuReUS - 3-8-2017 at 09:21

not directly related to the topic,but how do you remove the NH2 instead of the COOH ?

Melgar - 3-8-2017 at 12:22

Well, the only update I have so far is that proline also works. I suppose I'd need to separate by distillation, but I've had a hell of a time figuring out a good way to vacuum distill in the small amount of space I have available to me. I've been working on a thermoelectric cooling system, and trying to fix the magnetic stirrer on my hotplate, but I haven't been able to make much headway on either one. I guess I should just buy a bag of ice, and use that for cooling until I have something better, and put my hotplate back together without the stirrer so I can at least use it for something.

I'm leaning towards propylene glycol as being the best solvent to use, because of its 188˚C boiling point, lack of odor and toxicity, and low cost. It's also a lot less viscous than glycerine, which has similar properties otherwise.

[Edited on 8/3/17 by Melgar]

JJay - 3-8-2017 at 12:33

You don't have enough space to vacuum distill? You can vacuum distill in a space the size of a microwave....

alking - 31-8-2017 at 16:40

Melgar, what temperature was your bath with the DMSO? I recently tried to decarboxylate tryptophan with it and had quite unsatifactory results, I'm sure some tryptamine was produced, but my effective yield was 0.

The first issue was I seemed to have significant oxidation. Whether this was because I did not flush the system or take measures to ensure an inert atmosphere or because it reacted with the DMSO I'm not sure, but my bath temperature peaked at 150C. It began decarbing around 120-130C I would guess, but it's hard to measure. This problem is likely avoidable with lower temperatures and an inert atmosphere, but I can't say for sure w/o confirmation.

The second issue is that at some point between 120-150C it fully solvated the tryptophan. Initially I thought this was a good thing, and it's not inherently bad, but the downside is that without measuring the CO2 output you can't really tell when the reaction is done. I use a water trap so one indicator is backflow, but that's not reliable or a good determination to use.

The last and most important issue is the workup. I don't really see it happening here, how do you propose doing so? Even with a very strong vacuum source you cannot fully strip the DMSO and with a not so strong one there's no point even trying. The efficiency of the solvent in a reaction is great, but it's worthless if you can't recover the product afterward. I'd imagine this is going to be the case of all high boiling aprotic solvents unless it's possible to freeze precipitate the tryptamine afterward, and even then it's still rather messy. The only option left is to use a solvent system to extract it with the DMSO and that just seems like an utter mess to me, you're going to have to throw the DMSO away and I can't imagine the emulsion you'd have to fight in order to recover the product. Is there a method I'm not aware of? This really does seem like a good solvent for the reaction, but based on the inability to extract it afterward I think you'd be better off using a stick of butter.

clearly_not_atara - 31-8-2017 at 17:26

I'd be surprised if tryptamine hydrochloride were soluble in DMSO. Is it?

Also, DMSO is boiled away quite often in common usage, so I'm not sure what you're doing wrong. You do need a heat source to get an acceptable rate of evaporation due to the "heat of boiling" consumed when the DMSO evaporates. If you subject a liquid to vacuum with no heating it can even freeze in some cases. A warm water bath can be enough heat.

Another method for removing DMSO is to use water and an immiscible solvent:

http://anonym.to/https://www.researchgate.net/post/How_can_I...

Quote:
1) take your compound in a beaker and add ice onto it. leave till ice melts.
2) add ethyl acetate/diethyl ether and take mixture in separatory funnel without shaking mixture much.
3) swirl a little but dont shake the separatory funnel. take out water layer. Now you give washing with ice-cold water with good shaking.
4) dry on sodium sulfate and concentrate using rota vapour.


Essentially what happens here is that the DMSO will migrate into the water layer and the tryptamine will move into the ethyl acetate, diethyl ether, DCM, chloroform, etc, and then you can wash that layer with water to remove remaining DMSO and evaporate the solvents. You're exploiting DMSO's affinity for water to get rid of it. This would normally be done after vacuuming as much as possible.

alking - 1-9-2017 at 07:00

I don't have time to look into that now, but I'll check it out later, thanks for the link. I thought hcl reacted with tryptamine in some way though? I remember reading that tryptamine and DMT I believe cannot form a proper salt with HCl, it tends to be a liquid and prone to oxidation, I assume because it disassociates for w/e reason. It might still work for an extraction, but I've always thought it was to be avoided.

As to stripping the DMSO I could strip about 25-50% of it and then it became increasingly difficult to do so, I assume because the tryptamine was binding to it. I'm sure if I had a better vacuum source I could do fine, I'm using a rather abused rotary vane pump, but with anything less I can't see it being practical to distill out. I'm sure it's nothing with even a basic commercial lab/vacuum source, but keep in mind many of us are lucky to even have a rotary vane pump.

When I stripped it it came over with a bath temp starting at about 50C (that's the lowest I could pull the vacuum) and peaking at 90C before I cut it off, I'm not sure how harmful that may have been to the product. My remaining solution, based on volume, seems to be about 50% DMSO, 50% product (including side products). I was going to try and do an a/b later from this, hopefully there's not too much DMSO remaining to cause a serious emulsion.

[Edited on 1-9-2017 by alking]

clearly_not_atara - 1-9-2017 at 13:34

A quick Google for "tryptamine hydrochloride" turns up several suppliers selling it, including the one that involves a Greek letter hyphenated with the name of a monster from Dark Souls 3. On this basis I conclude that it both exists and is stable, so you may be thinking of another salt.

Excessive acidity can destroy indole in the presence of water, so that may be what you heard. But this effect is not unique to HCl, and I don't think that indole will be protonated by HCl in DMSO, because the pKa of HCl in DMSO is 1.8, meaning that it is weak in DMSO, and the pKa of pyridinium is 3.4, and indole is generally several orders of magnitude less basic than pyridinium, which points to tryptamine being only monoprotonated. However, extracting indoles with concentrated hydrochloric acid (aq) is to be avoided except at 0 C, because indole is protonated by HCl in water (pKas -3.6 and -5 respectively). Gassing a nonaqueous solvent containing tryptamines with HCl should be okay.

Melgar - 2-9-2017 at 02:07

Quote: Originally posted by alking  
Melgar, what temperature was your bath with the DMSO? I recently tried to decarboxylate tryptophan with it and had quite unsatifactory results, I'm sure some tryptamine was produced, but my effective yield was 0.

The first issue was I seemed to have significant oxidation. Whether this was because I did not flush the system or take measures to ensure an inert atmosphere or because it reacted with the DMSO I'm not sure, but my bath temperature peaked at 150C. It began decarbing around 120-130C I would guess, but it's hard to measure. This problem is likely avoidable with lower temperatures and an inert atmosphere, but I can't say for sure w/o confirmation.

My temperatures were similar to yours, and also weren't easy to measure. The tryptophan is practically a foam, and there's hot CO2 bubbles spattering out all the time. You tend to not need an inert atmosphere though, since the stuff generates its own. You just need plenty of head room and a restricted opening on your flask. I've done it since with just a stopper and a meter-long length of polyethylene tubing. That way, any suckback will only suck CO2 and water vapor into the flask.

The DMSO will oxidize the amino acid, forming dimethyl sulfide and an oxidized product. I have since come to the conclusion that propylene glycol is a superior solvent. After doing this decarboxylation reaction with both solvents, the DMSO would produce a darker product, and give off the familiar dimethyl sulfide smell. Since there wasn't enough dimethyl sulfide to necessitate evacuation, I can only assume it wasn't a large fraction.

Still, DMSO tends to form complexes with other substances, preventing distillation from it, so I'm reluctant to recommend it anymore, and would probably instead recommend propylene glycol.

Quote:
The second issue is that at some point between 120-150C it fully solvated the tryptophan. Initially I thought this was a good thing, and it's not inherently bad, but the downside is that without measuring the CO2 output you can't really tell when the reaction is done. I use a water trap so one indicator is backflow, but that's not reliable or a good determination to use.

I just let it go until the CO2 bubbles stopped. CO2 bubbles are distinguishable from those produced by boiling in that they don't change size as they rise through the liquid. They also linger a bit at the surface before popping, whereas the bubbles from boiling don't.

Quote:
The last and most important issue is the workup. I don't really see it happening here, how do you propose doing so? Even with a very strong vacuum source you cannot fully strip the DMSO and with a not so strong one there's no point even trying. The efficiency of the solvent in a reaction is great, but it's worthless if you can't recover the product afterward. I'd imagine this is going to be the case of all high boiling aprotic solvents unless it's possible to freeze precipitate the tryptamine afterward, and even then it's still rather messy. The only option left is to use a solvent system to extract it with the DMSO and that just seems like an utter mess to me, you're going to have to throw the DMSO away and I can't imagine the emulsion you'd have to fight in order to recover the product. Is there a method I'm not aware of? This really does seem like a good solvent for the reaction, but based on the inability to extract it afterward I think you'd be better off using a stick of butter.

Granted, DMSO tends to raise the boiling point of the components of mixtures that it's in, but why wouldn't you just distill the tryptamine out? Wikipedia says the boiling point is only 137C under 0.15 mmHg. I tried this once from PG and got a lot of bumping, although perhaps with better boiling chips it wouldn't be as bad.

alking - 3-9-2017 at 10:47

Quote:
A quick Google for "tryptamine hydrochloride" turns up several suppliers selling it, including the one that involves a Greek letter hyphenated with the name of a monster from Dark Souls 3. On this basis I conclude that it both exists and is stable, so you may be thinking of another salt.

Excessive acidity can destroy indole in the presence of water, so that may be what you heard. But this effect is not unique to HCl, and I don't think that indole will be protonated by HCl in DMSO, because the pKa of HCl in DMSO is 1.8, meaning that it is weak in DMSO, and the pKa of pyridinium is 3.4, and indole is generally several orders of magnitude less basic than pyridinium, which points to tryptamine being only monoprotonated. However, extracting indoles with concentrated hydrochloric acid (aq) is to be avoided except at 0 C, because indole is protonated by HCl in water (pKas -3.6 and -5 respectively). Gassing a nonaqueous solvent containing tryptamines with HCl should be okay.


It's definitely HCl that I am thinking of, I've read it in at least two, maybe three different places. All were forums and essentially heresay though so I'd take your source of a supplier selling it over those. My memory is vague, but as you may gather from my description, and likely part of why my memory is vague, is that no one actually said what happened or why it didn't work, it was always 'It doesn't work for some reason, it does this or something.' Essential heresay w/o direct experience from anyone making the claim and an incomplete reasoning to support it.

Quote:

My temperatures were similar to yours, and also weren't easy to measure. The tryptophan is practically a foam, and there's hot CO2 bubbles spattering out all the time. You tend to not need an inert atmosphere though, since the stuff generates its own. You just need plenty of head room and a restricted opening on your flask. I've done it since with just a stopper and a meter-long length of polyethylene tubing. That way, any suckback will only suck CO2 and water vapor into the flask.

The DMSO will oxidize the amino acid, forming dimethyl sulfide and an oxidized product. I have since come to the conclusion that propylene glycol is a superior solvent. After doing this decarboxylation reaction with both solvents, the DMSO would produce a darker product, and give off the familiar dimethyl sulfide smell. Since there wasn't enough dimethyl sulfide to necessitate evacuation, I can only assume it wasn't a large fraction.

Still, DMSO tends to form complexes with other substances, preventing distillation from it, so I'm reluctant to recommend it anymore, and would probably instead recommend propylene glycol.


Yeah, that definitely sounds similar to my expeirences. There was significant oxidation and dimethylsulfide formation. The dimethysulfide actually may be why it was so difficult for me to vacuum distill it in fact, I did not consider that as I did not realize it's BP was so low until looking it up just now.

Quote:

Granted, DMSO tends to raise the boiling point of the components of mixtures that it's in, but why wouldn't you just distill the tryptamine out? Wikipedia says the boiling point is only 137C under 0.15 mmHg. I tried this once from PG and got a lot of bumping, although perhaps with better boiling chips it wouldn't be as bad.


I don't think my vacuum pump is good enough to sublimate the tryptamine. It may be, but I didn't want to risk it and waste time/product trying. If I couldn't strip the DMSO then I probably can't distill the tryptamine, right? I mean the DMSO would come over first.

In the past when I've experimented with making tryptamine I did so in mineral oil. Usually I do not extract from the mineral oil, I just let the formed tryptamine crystallize out over 24-48 hr and then solvate what remains between an acetic acid solution and DCM. The DCM is recovered, the aqeous is basified until the tryptamine precipitates where it is filtered off. From there it's generally fairly pure, but I will then recrystallize it in some sort of hydrocarbon to get nice white/tan crystals (which oxidize very quickly unless stored under an inert atmosphere).

I'm not very happy with that route, it seems it could be much improved, mainly just due to the solvent used, mineral oil, which is messy and cumbersome to work with. I'll give PG a try, but other than the oxidation I'd imagine I'd have similar trouble removing it, I don't know. If I could decarb it with little to no oxidation that would be a huge improvement alone though. I'm currently trying to work up the DMSO trial, it's not going too bad, but I am having an emulsion to deal with which is taking most of the time so far just waiting for it to break.

[Edited on 3-9-2017 by alking]

Melgar - 4-9-2017 at 03:42

DMSO and PG both boil at around 190C, which is considerably higher than tryptamine. PG can't be reduced (and thus contribute to oxidation) under ordinary conditions, although it can be oxidized. Probably not as easily as tryptamine though. If you're having a problem with oxidation, have you tried using an antioxidant? I used to have a problem with oxidation of certain compounds when I'd leave them out to evaporate in recrystallization dishes, until I started adding small amounts of ascorbic acid to them. BHT would probably work for this reaction, and isn't very expensive.

Even if you can't pull a full vacuum, I'd imagine tryptamine base would have a boiling point less than 150C or so.

alking - 4-9-2017 at 11:07

After working it up my yield was actually near 0%. There was a small amount of tryptamine formed from the, iirc, ~6g of starting material, but it was so low it was not worth scraping off the filter unfortunately, less than 100mg if even I'd guess. It seems that most of the product oxidized or otherwise formed some sort side product.

PartVIII - 6-9-2017 at 18:13

I have attempted the decarboxylation of tryptophan with DMSO and obtained 15-20% of theoretical.

The only way I found to remove the DMSO is to distill as much off as possible under high vacuum (<10 mmHg), then carefully perform an acid-base extraction on the resulting residue. The distillation was carried out after I had already tried nearly every other method to strip the DMSO, so the vast majority of it was already removed beforehand. Crystallization of the crude freebase (deep orange goo) from acetonitrile was unexpectedly challenging.

I strongly recommend you ditch DMSO and try the decarboxylation with cyclohexanol (preferably with 0.5-1.0% 2-cyclohexene-1-one). Cyclohexanol can be easily purchased on ebay and can be recycled via distillation. The synthesis is fairly straight forward:

Reflux AA in cyclohexanol (6mL per 1g Trp) with heavy stirring for 3-4 h or until CO2 evolution ceases. The mixture turns light yellow and turbid when heated. Wisps of vapor 'pop' out every 5-10 seconds during heavy reflux. Slurry of SM will dissolve and the solution takes on the color of chalky lemonade . The bath temperature never should reach above 180C. Popping will progressively calm down and become more infrequent. When popping stops, replace reflux condenser with distillation head and distill off as much solvent as possible without discoloration (~50%).
**Omitting the distillation sacrifices only a small amount of yield and gives much purer product, especially when at atmospheric pressures. In addition, remember to not heat the flask above 180C**

Filter off crude product and wash with water followed by a small amount of either petroleum or diethyl ether. Doing this gave me reasonably pure product (NMR). Further purification steps, such as acid/base extraction or distillation, can be performed.

Recrystallization can be done several ways. I dissolved the crude freebase in acetonitrile and adding a several drop of dilute NaOH until the mixture became turbid. It was left in a beaker covered by a watchglass for almost a week at room temp. Tan colored crystals caked the walls of the beaker. Product was filtered and dried to yield freebase tryptamine as fluffy tan crystals (60-70% of theoretical).

The procedure this was adapted from reported >90% conversion, but claimed to isolate the amine as the HCl salt without providing details of the workup or crystallization.

Any suggestions for improvements, especially with respect to the isolation of freebase amines, would be greatly appreciated.

[Edited on 7-9-2017 by PartVIII]

[Edited on 7-9-2017 by PartVIII]

Mush - 8-9-2017 at 09:31

This article is about why cyclohexenon was used as catalyst and why 98% pure cyclohexanol works better than 99% pure.
https://erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/trp.decarbox.enone.html

Melgar - 10-9-2017 at 06:33

Quote: Originally posted by Mush  
This article is about why cyclohexenon was used as catalyst and why 98% pure cyclohexanol works better than 99% pure.
https://erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/trp.decarbox.enone.html

Yep. And for those who don't have easy access to cyclohexenone or cyclohexanol, cavrone, from spearmint oil, has proven to work just as well. As a bonus, you can buy quite a lot for under $10 on eBay and Amazon.

turd - 10-9-2017 at 11:05

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
DMSO and PG both boil at around 190C, which is considerably higher than tryptamine.

That's crazy talk. DMSO distills long before tryptamine. You need a rather good vacuum to distill the latter.

By the way, it's spelled and pronounced caRVone.

Yes, handling tryptamine(s) can be quite tricky. :)

Melgar - 10-9-2017 at 11:25

Quote: Originally posted by turd  

That's crazy talk. DMSO distills long before tryptamine. You need a rather good vacuum to distill the latter.

By the way, it's spelled and pronounced caRVone.

Yes, handling tryptamine(s) can be quite tricky. :)

I wouldn't try to distill much of anything from DMSO, since it tends to raise the boiling point of mixtures. You're right about tryptamine's boiling point though, I was looking at the vacuum one.

I think my next attempt is just going to be using the amine as the solvent, then adding the amino acid in portions.

Corrosive Joeseph - 21-9-2017 at 22:14

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
easy access to cyclohexenone or cyclohexanol


Cyclohexanone to Cyclohexanol with H2O and Sodium Dithionite in 80% yields -
http://parazite.pp.fi/hiveboard/picproxie_docs/000427794-Red...

Synthesis of Cyclohexene from Cyclohexanol by Acid Catalyzed ( E1 ) Elimination (using H3PO4) -
http://academic.keystone.edu/JFalcone/SynthesisCyclohexene.h...

OTC Cyclohexanone......... Attached


/CJ

Attachment: OTC Cyclohexanone.pdf (184kB)
This file has been downloaded 675 times

Melgar - 21-9-2017 at 23:44

Quote: Originally posted by Corrosive Joeseph  


Cyclohexanone to Cyclohexanol with H2O and Sodium Dithionite in 80% yields -
http://parazite.pp.fi/hiveboard/picproxie_docs/000427794-Red...

Synthesis of Cyclohexene from Cyclohexanol by Acid Catalyzed ( E1 ) Elimination (using H3PO4) -
http://academic.keystone.edu/JFalcone/SynthesisCyclohexene.h...

OTC Cyclohexanone......... Attached


/CJ


It's actually technical grade cyclohexanol that apparently works best, due to cyclohexenone (not cyclohexanone) impurities. Of course, cyclohexanol isn't made commercially via the way you described, so impurities would also be different.

gatosgr - 23-9-2017 at 06:19

What are you using this for? How do you identify the products? Making oligopeptides sounds more useful.

Found the patent for this : https://www.google.com/patents/US20140275569

[Edited on 23-9-2017 by gatosgr]

Melgar - 28-9-2017 at 15:39

One possible workup for DMSO decarboxylation: ion-exchange resin. It might not even have to be acidified. Just dilute with large amounts of water, then run through a column of polystyrene sulfonate resin. It's orange-colored so a visual check would probably suffice. Rinse the resin with distilled water, then elute with any ionic substance dissolved in water.

LD5050 - 2-10-2017 at 11:22

Would DMF be a good choice of solvent to decarboxilate tryptophan with? I was thinking of using DMF for the solvent and for the catylist a few ml of peppermint oil. I was reading a paper and d-Pulegone found in peppermint and pennyroyal seems to be a good catylist.

UPDATE:

I went ahead and gave this a shot, I mixed 5 grams of tryptophan in 20ml DMF and added 3ml of peppermint oil into a 100ml RBF and set up for reflux.

At first the reaction mixture was milky white the tryptophan did not dissolve into the DMF. When the DMF started to reflux the mixture slowly turned yellow and had the appearance of a yellow eggnog is how I would describe it.

Approx. 2 hours in the mixture became somewhat transparent and was the color of butterscotch candy. I placed a hose adaptor on top of the reflux condenser and lead a small tube from the adaptor to a small beaker filled with water to see if I could measure or atleast tell if CO2 was being produced. I noticed slight bubbling from the tube but not much probably a few bubbles every 5-10 seconds or so. I believe this might be CO2?

I'm now on the fourth hour of reflux and when I removed the hose adaptor from the refluxcondenser I noticed a strong smell of ammonia. Any idea of why Its producing the smell of ammonia , is this normal?

[Edited on 10-2-2017 by LD5050]

Melgar - 2-10-2017 at 16:05

You need spearmint oil, not peppermint oil. Peppermint oil lacks the necessary carvone that catalyzes the decarboxylation. I don't think DMF has quite a high enough boiling point, and in any case, it's an amide, like proteins are. That means that you could have transamidation reactions with your amino acid (theoretically), giving the formamide derivatives of your amino acids as well as dimethylamine. So the dimethylamine could be what you're smelling.

The only amino acid I have significant amounts of now is proline, so I tried solventless decarboxylation with that. Of course, the decarboxylized derivative of proline, (pyrollidine) has a boiling point that's like 90C, so it boils as soon as it forms. I should probably set up a distillation rig and see what I can get from that.

LD5050 - 2-10-2017 at 17:00

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
You need spearmint oil, not peppermint oil. Peppermint oil lacks the necessary carvone that catalyzes the decarboxylation. I don't think DMF has quite a high enough boiling point, and in any case, it's an amide, like proteins are. That means that you could have transamidation reactions with your amino acid (theoretically), giving the formamide derivatives of your amino acids as well as dimethylamine. So the dimethylamine could be what you're smelling.

The only amino acid I have significant amounts of now is proline, so I tried solventless decarboxylation with that. Of course, the decarboxylized derivative of proline, (pyrollidine) has a boiling point that's like 90C, so it boils as soon as it forms. I should probably set up a distillation rig and see what I can get from that.



The paper I read used d-pulegone (I'll have to find it and attach it) it was a paper on the impurities formed using different OTC solvents and catylists. Surprisingly if I remember right turpintine and d-pulegone had pretty good yields around 75% if I recall correctly. I know the proper catylist to use is spearmint oil but the only reason I used peppermint is because it's all I could find near me and well I found a document stating it worked so what the hell I gave it a shot.

What temp does the tryptophan decarboxylate at? I was looking on google earlier but couldn't find the answer although I got interrupted 5 minutes into the search so I'll try again to find it myself if I don't get an answer in the mean time.

So is my experiment pointless because DMF is an amide? Should I pretty much just stop what I'm doing because I'm not going to get anywhere lol. Ohhh well it was worth a shot anyway I guess.

Also is a catylist necessary for decarboxylation or does it just speed up the reaction?

Melgar - 2-10-2017 at 19:48

I've found that the catalyst is very much needed. If the catalyst ever boiled away on me, I'd get a lot of bumping, to the point where one vessel actually fell off my hotplate. I had to keep a close watch for that.

You can use really any high-boiling solvent, or even no solvent, assuming the amine boils at a high enough temperature to act as a solvent. (And if not, distill it as it forms.) Decarboxylation requires around 150C or so, but it could be higher or lower I'm sure, depending on the amino acid, amount of catalyst, solvent, etc.

Pulegone does have the enone functionality that makes a catalyst effective, however peppermint oil has little if any pulegone in it. Carvone, on the other hand, is the major component of spearmint oil.

Kratom3million - 3-10-2017 at 22:41

I have a question- is there any way you can decarboxylate phenylalanine to Phenethylamine (you can do it, google it erowid has a method) without heat? My problem is I have a kitchen set up and I would like to produce pea from dl-phenylalanine but without having to cook (for the co2 release part) because if it accidentally burnt me and my family would be ingesting fumes from grams of burnt phenylalanine. Example: you can produce hydrogen in a cup of water with salt and a 9v battery. Is there any ways to do this type of thing but for co2 release? Thank you!!!

Melgar - 3-10-2017 at 23:24

Why not just do it on a very small scale with an alcohol lamp and a test tube? There's really no getting around the fact that you're going to need to use heat if you're going to do any real chemistry at all, ever. Alcohol lamps are easy to make, too. Just get a small bottle (nail polish bottles work well) and then find some cotton cord that will fit inside the neck without falling in. You can use 70% isopropanol as a fuel. 70% doesn't produce soot either, like 99% isopropanol does. Or use methanol, propylene glycol, or some other substance that burns and mixes with water. It sounds like you might be a bit inexperienced, but if you use alcohol with water mixed in as your fuel, it's very easy to extinguish, even if you spill the fuel all over yourself. (Though, try NOT to do that, obviously) The more water you add, the less flammable it is, so add an amount where it's a bit difficult to light, but will burn once you light it. If you can't find cotton cord for a wick, then unroll a cotton ball and twist it into a wick, or just twist a piece of paper towel tightly and cut it to an appropriate length.

Also, don't use your hands to hold the test tube, because it will get hotter than boiling water. Order like $5 worth of these things, you won't regret it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clamp-Heating-Glass-Tube-Tongs-Suppl...

In the meantime, you can rig something up with bent coat hanger wire or whatever you have around, I'm sure.

gatosgr - 13-10-2017 at 12:49

If you don't have tongs , fold a strip of A4 print paper many times and use this long strip to cover the test tube, squeeze the paper to lift the tube, don't touch the tube only the paper.

What is the mechanism for this reaction?

If the amino acid smells like rotten fish it's giving off di or trimethylamine.

[Edited on 13-10-2017 by gatosgr]

Untitled.png - 6kB

Melgar - 21-10-2017 at 01:16

I hadn't experimented as much with tryptophan earlier, because it's one of the more expensive amino acids and I didn't have very much of it. I tried again today though, in a 50 mL flask, after adding a stopper to it, and putting a glass tube sticking out of the top. I made the end that was in the stopper taper to a narrow size, then put a bulge in the tube higher up. The effectively prevented the gushing problem I had earlier. I also added it in portions, which was a little annoying, because I had to wait for it to cool down every time I wanted to add another portion. I also added silicone oil to reduce the foaming. It certainly helped, but there was still a lot of foaming anyway. Anyway, after all these modifications, I was able to decarboxylate tryptophan solventless with little if any visible oxidation, using spearmint oil as a catalyst. Tryptamine is an amorphous orange solid at room temperature, and doesn't seem to have a fixed melting point; it just softens and becomes less viscous as it's heated. I'm not sure what else I could have, and it certainly smells like tryptamine, but I'm not exactly sure how to test it. TLC, I guess?

gatosgr - 27-10-2017 at 23:43

What is the mechanism of the reaction?


[Edited on 28-10-2017 by gatosgr]

Melgar - 28-10-2017 at 02:15

Quote: Originally posted by gatosgr  
What is the mechanism of the reaction

Enone-catalyzed decarboxylation of alpha amino acids. It was first reported in 1986:

https://erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/trp.decarbox.en...

Carvone occurs as the principle component of spearmint oil, and thus can act in a role similar to cyclohexenone.

spookyboo13 - 3-1-2018 at 09:59

Melgar,

Thanks for the heads up on spearmint oil. I quickly recognized the correlation between carvone the main active in spearmint oil and the formation of a schiffs base between carvone and phenylalanine. In case your might not be aware the bright orange color your describing is the schiffs base itself, as they are always brightly colored, lemony yellow to orange to brilliant red. With 30 plus years as an organic chemist in the fragrance industry, I have produced dozens of them. Also when the schiffs base, also known as an imine, forms there is an instant generation of a large amount of heat and in general water vapor sweats off. These are telltale signs that the complex is forming. Some schiffs bases don't form so easy and have to be heated to initiate the formation of the complex. Just learn to recognize the bright colors, even in solution. Many schiffs bases can be formed neat, especially if one component is a liquid you can just dissolve one in the other, heating if necessary. Normally the reaction generates so much heat you wont be able to hold the flask! If both are solids dissolve them in a polar protic high boiling solvent like ethylene glycol, diethylene glycol or propylene glycol. Amino acid Schiffs bases generally decarboxylate between 110 C and 190 C so just heat the hell out of it untill you get yet another color change and evolution of CO2 gas. If your not sure just trap the gas over water and put a lit match in the receiving vessel, naturally CO2 will extinguish the flame. Some amino acid schiffs bases require 2 or more hours to completely decarboxylate.

So here is my first set of runs:

8.25 grams of phenylalanine (free form) and 6.0 grams of phenylacetaldehyde and 10 grams of ethylene glycol were intimately mixed without heating at which time a vigorous reaction set in generating an immense amount of heat and immediately turning a bright lemon-yellow color. After the initial heat flash subsided the mixture was heated over a low flame to drive the formation to completion by this time the solution was a vivid orange color with a beautiful floral-grape odor. heating was continued to bring the solution to a low boil at which time decarboxylation began. Flame testing the gas extinguished a lit splint confirming the presence of CO2. Intermittent heating was continued for approximately two hours at which time two layers had formed, a vivid burgundy overhead and a thin solid layer on the bottom. The previously milky orange solution was now deep red and completely transparent. The odor of the solution had changed from a strong floral-grape to a light floral odor with a very distinct amine odor. The solution now reeked of phenethylamine, although it still had some floral character to it. At this point in time even though the decarboxylation is complete, the schiffs base complex is still present, as indicated by the vivid red color. Now its time to cleave the schiffs base and collect the goodies! for those who might not know, water is the enemy of all schiffs bases. Formation of a schiffs base is a hydrolysis reaction, water is split off at the beginning, and addition of water and or acid to the reaction will drive the reverse reaction back to the starting materials. Here we will take advantage of this to cleave the complex and get our product. 10 grams DH2O and a small pinch of citric acid were added to the solution and the solution was once again heated to boiling for 1 hour to break the complex. If one was looking for a hydrochoride salt they would just use concentrated hydrochloric acid and reflux as normal and after 1 hour they could extract the salt out in the normal fashion. I chose a very small amount of citric acid so as to avoid hydrochloride formation. Acid is not required but does speed up the process significantly. Just refluxing with DH2O will do the trick but with my complex (phenethylamine-phenylacetaldehyde) the complex is so strong and stable that the reflux would take 3-4 hours! After the reflux is complete, there are two layers formed and orangey-yellow upper oily layer and the lower water layer. The upper layer is seperated and dried over zeolite or magnesium sulfate as you see fit, the oily layer is distilled reclaiming the phenylacetaldehyde and collecting the phenethylamine as base. The phenethylamine was dried over sodium hydroxide and will be used for a michael reaction with methyl acrylate tonight or tomorrow as soon as I have the time. A couple of notes: First I couldn't find any spearmint oil around town if you can beleive that, only fake wintergreen which is not the same thing of course. So I used phenylacetaldehyde because I had it lying around and I know it forms a schiffs base readily. Carvone will work just fine if you have it. I am currently lining up other experiments using cinnamon oil, vanillin, benzaldehyde, and cyclohexanone. Carvone is an unsaturated ketone so it will be interesting to see how cyclohexanone performs. Benzaldehyde from almond flavor is very reactive also as well as vanillin. As soon as I can get them run I will post the info for you. So maybe a day or two. Cinnamon oil contains cinnamaldehyde, an unsaturated aldehyde, so that should be highly reactive as well.

Now on to the Aza-Michael!!

Best Regards,

SPOOKY

AvBaeyer - 3-1-2018 at 10:40

I find this post lacking in enough detail to make it believable. I believe that it has been fairly well established that aldehydes are poor catalysts for the decarboxylation of amino acids. Moreover, the reactivity of phenylacetaldehyde should render it one of the poorest aldehydes by a large margin.

After the hydrolysis of the purported product imine an "oily" layer is formed which supposedly contains phenylacetaldehyde and phenethylamine. The imine complex is stated to be "so strong and stable." Why wouldn't the products then simply recombine to form the imine? Distillation of the purported products is claimed but no supporting information is provided for reference (eg., bp).

I think that someone who claims 30 years experience as an organic chemist can do better than what is in this post. I do not believe a word of it.

AvB


Melgar - 3-1-2018 at 11:31

@AvBaeyer I see what you mean; it seems strange that someone with 30 years experience as an organic chemist couldn't think of a better way to get benzaldehyde than from almond flavoring. But maybe the work he was doing was so specialized that there's a lot he doesn't know outside of his specialty? It's a whole different world, working in industry compared to doing this stuff as an amateur.

But if he's still reading this, I'd posit that cyclic enones seem to make far better catalysts than acyclic ones do.

Sigmatropic - 3-1-2018 at 11:46


Quote:

The phenethylamine was dried over sodium hydroxide and will be used for a michael reaction with methyl acrylate tonight


Hmmmm... where would this be going... not the 4-piperidone derivative I hope.

spookyboo13 - 4-1-2018 at 09:46

First and foremost, the object of this work is OTC.. not bought from ebay. Second I have been doing this for quite some time, and have just a little more experience in the field than the average amateur. The unfortunate thing about leaving the big city is also leaving the big budget companies behind, and working the hard way, by making almost everything required as opposed to buying it. I could just call alfa for the amine, but as such they ask a lot of questions i'm not in a position to answer. Anyway benzaldehyde and cinnamaldehyde are an experiment, to further knowledge on the topic, and both are fairly easy to get. I had a feeling I would take some flack because of my experience but I guess that just goes with the territory. Whether aldehydes are poor catalysts overall has nothing to do with the fact that phenylacetaldehyde is exceptionally reactive either way and I just happen to have it lying around, so why not use it. Phenylacetaldehyde forms schiffs bases readily with many nitrogenous compounds, not just phenylalanine, i' have been working with it for years, even a weak ammonia solution will give a schiffs base with phenylacetaldehyde with just a shake and no heating required. Lastly, I was in a huge rush to finish the post and get off to work, what reference were you referring to? What other detail were you looking for anyway, I think enough detail was given for someone who might duplicate the work. This is not the first batch I have run anyway, more like the sixth, the amine is in hand and ready for the next project, so who cares what you and your duplicate personality think anyway? I have met a million guys like you over the years, jealous and resentful. Instead of just regurgitating someone else's work try thinking up your own!

SPOOKY

Melgar - 4-1-2018 at 12:42

Don't take it personally, spooky. We're fairly skeptical of first-time posters here as a rule, especially ones that seem a hair's breadth away from some sort of illegal drug synthesis. If you want everyone here to take you more seriously, you just have to stick around and post more. If your posts all look like what we'd expect from a Walter White wannabe, you'll probably get lectured at, ignored, and then banned. If you seem like a knowledgeable chemist, people will come to trust you more.

If I wanted OTC benzaldehyde, I'd distill this floor leveler/treatment stuff that has a lot of benzyl alcohol in it, then oxidize with potassium permanganate while stirring vigorously. Then vacuum distill. I was under the impression that the amount in almond flavoring was quite tiny. But perhaps I'm wrong. In any case, I have half a liter of benzaldehyde somewhere in storage, and probably wouldn't ever need to synthesize it.

spookyboo13 - 5-1-2018 at 09:16

Melgar,

Fair enough, no Walter White wannabee here, after lurking for years, just trying to pass on worthwhile info. If my process was a failure I would post that as well just so someone knows not to waste their time. Most of my focus is perfumery related.. nothing else.. well nothing else that is organic chemical anyway.
:cool:

spookyboo13 - 5-1-2018 at 09:23

Just for curiousity how do I post a paper, link or otherwise? I have a cool paper on decarboxylation catalyzed by pyridoxal (vitamin b-1) its kind of expensive but worth investigating. This is where I got the lead for the schiffs base work.

EilOr - 5-1-2018 at 13:06

If smell doesn't bother you - good old genuine terpuntine is OTC a almost perfect solvent for that reaction, giving 90%+ yield of a crude product after extraction with 5% acetic acid, washing with DCM, freebasing with NaOH, filtration washing with aq. ammonia and later around 60-70% after vacuum destillation of the tryptamine.
Here some pics of destillation:
http://forum.lambdasyn.org/index.php?topic=1057.0

Tryptamines can be further purified by precpt. as carbamate with CO2 from EtOH or IPA (a household "soda stream" can be used) if necessary
US2943093

LD5050 - 7-1-2018 at 10:16

35.9g of tryptophan was added to a 500ml RBF attached to a reflux condenser. I then added 120ml of turpentine and 31 drops of spearmint oil. Reaction mixture at this time was milky white heavy with tryptophan precipitate. 5 min into heating the mixture appearance turned slight yellow/cream color. 30 minutes into reflux large "boiling" bubbles erupted and what seemed to be small Co2 bubbles around edges of RBF.

90 minutes in and a lot of small bubbles forming indicating Co2 (I think). 30 minutes later I added 15 more drops of spearmint oil through condenser. Viscosity of reaction mix seems to have increased. 40 minutes later I added 60ml turpentine + 50 drops of spearmint oil. After addition a lot more small Co2 bubbles seem to form. 3 hours later I added 20 drops of Spearmint oil. 5 hours later added another 20 drops.

Next morning approx 24 hours into reaction reaction mix is now an orangish color not so much milky/turbid anymore, somewhat transparent possibly indicating reaction is close to completion? When stirring is stopped small amount of white precipitate collects on bottom of RBF. When stirring is started back up small bubbles/foam rises almost to top of RBF but then subsides after a few seconds.

25 hours into reflux I stop the heating and let cool to room temp with stirring. I'm now left with a brownish/orange turbid solution at room temp with small amount of brown oily gunky substance on bottom of flask.

I know need to purify/extract crude tryptamine from reaction mixture but I'm not sure best way to do this. I found a procedure on erowid using vinigar but I think I would rather vacuum distill if I can but I'm not sure how to go about it. I have a vacuum distillation setup. I'm confused a bit on what I have in the reaction mixture after decarboxylation of the tryptophan. Do I now have the freebase oil of tryptamine in solution? Would I first distill off the turpentine then the tryptamine freebase under vacuum then acidity with HCL to form tryptamine HCL? I performed a vacuum distillation a while back on the tryptamine but I didn't take notes and can't remember what I did but I remember when I was distilling the tryptamine it had crystallized in the condenser.

So ya I'm a little puzzled on what to do here. I looked around but couldn't find much on distilling the tryptamine from the reaction mix and rather can only find extraction with vinigar and chloroform. I would rather vacuum distill to get a cleaner product if possible.

Melgar - 7-1-2018 at 10:38

Quote: Originally posted by spookyboo13  
Just for curiousity how do I post a paper, link or otherwise? I have a cool paper on decarboxylation catalyzed by pyridoxal (vitamin b-1) its kind of expensive but worth investigating. This is where I got the lead for the schiffs base work.

If you're doing the "quick reply" at the bottom of the page, click "preview post", and it'll take you to the full editor. There, you'll see an attachment box that you can use to attach pictures or documents, or whatever you want.

Chemi Pharma - 7-1-2018 at 14:48

Hi everyone,

I was avoiding enter in this discussion board cause, really, until a few days ago, I think I didn't have too much knowledge to discuss the topic.

However I was forced to study the theory of decarboxylation of aminoacids cause a project I have that uses pyrrolidine and I conclude the better way to sinthesize it is decarboxylating L-Proline.

Then, I search at Google and here at the forum and found very interesting materials about aminoacids decarboxylation I want to share with you guys.

At first, I looked at an old thread that had begun by Scr0t in 2015, where he teached how to decarboxylate L-Proline with even 85% yield, using acetophenone as a ketone, no solvent at all, just adding L-Proline and reflux the mix at 150ºC. He told, thereafter, about the easy workup either.

He covered the use of spearmint oil and turpentine as a solvent too, as a carvone catalysed decarboxylation, mentioning the eventual use of DMSO to help solvating the mix.

I quoted what he'd wrote below to be more clear:

Quote: Originally posted by Scr0t  
Several different methods of decarboxylation were applied to the amino-acid l-proline in attempts to obtain the cyclic secondary amine pyrrolidine. Pyrrolidine can substitute piperidine in many applications.


Copper catalysed decarboxylation

50.0g l-proline mixed with 5.0g basic copper carbonate Cu2(OH)2CO3 [1] and heated directly over an electric hotplate (~1.5kW).
When plate temperature was ~320°C a small amount of product came across (going by smell but had obvious water contamination) but was very slow. It was not until plate temperature was ~420°C when collection rate picked-up (~1 drop every 1-2s), the collected product was a pale yellow colour and smelled 'charred', collection was continued at 420-450°C for about 3hrs when it slowed considerably yet the contents in the distilling flask was still significant [2].

The collected material was dried over a few grams of solid NaOH and then distilled, the material collected between 85-89°C weighed 3.1g Yield of pyrrolidine 10%.
A clear higher boiling point residue was left behind (bp >90°C, ~15ml) in the distilling and was not examined further.


Overall the reaction was very low yielding, required a higher temperature and was sluggish compared to the decarboxylation of niacin to pyridine with the same catalyst loading.

Copper carbonate is not an effective catalyst for decarboxylation of this substrate and the results are probably no better than simply heating the proline on its own.

[1] If the mixture is allowed to stand at room temperature for ~24hrs it darkens to a deep blue colour.
[2] Proline reportedly decomposes at its melting point ~200°C, decarboxylation is evidently only a minor component of this.

----------------------------------
Acetophenone catalysed decarboxylation

20.00g l-proline in 80ml acetophenone was set for reflux and heated in an oil bath to 150°C
At ~130°C evolution of CO2 commenced, generation of some water and a mild smell of pyrrolidine from the top of the condenser was noticed.
Over the course of the reaction the solids dissolved and the reaction progressed to a deep orange colour, CO2 evolution rapidly abated at around 40mins and at 50mins it was removed from the heat.

30ml 36% HCl made up to 100ml was added to the cooled mixture and stirred for 30mins (white mist formed on addition due to the presence of freebase vapour), the lower aqueous phase was separated and the acetophenone layer washed with 50ml H2O containing a few grams of NaCl to aid with phase separation, the combined aqueous portions were washed with 2x20ml DCM.
The aqueous phase was cautiously treated with 20g NaOH in 30ml H2O whereupon a separate upper phase formed however this was not primarily pyrrolidine.

The mixture was distilled with stirring to collect the product and some water (<=92°C), the upper phase that formed earlier remained in the distillation flask as a few millilitres of a brown viscous oil/goo when cool.
The distillate was treated with a couple of grams of solid NaOH and the upper phase separated and distilled (bp 87°C) to yield 10.85g pyrrolidine (85%).

----------------------------------
Carvone catalysed decarboxylation

Into a 1L RBF 50.0g l-proline, 500ml turpentine and 2.0g spearmint oil was added and with stirring it was refluxed in an oil bath (~180°C). The mixture was heated to a rapid reflux (145-160°C).
At 20hrs there was still a few small lumps of what appeared to be unreacted proline in suspension [1] but the reaction was removed from the heat and allowed to cool. The mixture was treated with 60ml 36% HCl made up to 200ml with H2O and stirred for ~15min.
The mixture was separated (small amount of brown gummy material at the interface), washed with DCM, treated with 40g NaOH in 100ml H2O and then the whole distilled to collect the product and water. The distillate was treated with a few grams of solid NaOH [2], separated and distilled to yield 25.2g (82%) pyrrolidine.

The spearmint oil used was the same as that used for successful decarboxylation of tryptophan, the slow reaction is possibly due to a low solubility of proline in this solvent. Inclusion of some DMSO may improve reaction time.

[1] These lumps turned out to be quite gooey, possibly some proline surrounded by a side-product precipitate.
[2] The two-phase mixture of aqueous NaOH and distillate turned to a pink colour on standing in air.


Further, I found a paper that elucidates the mechanism of the Schift bases formation between the aminoacids and ketones and the hydrolises to amino hidrochloride salts, with a nice experimental section, that's attached below.

Attachment: Decarboxylation by heat of a-Amino-acids in the Presence of Ketones.PDF (642kB)
This file has been downloaded 1307 times

And searching a little more I found another paper that covers the decarboxylation of aminoacids at room temperature by N-bromosuccinimide followed by reduction of the nitrile formed with nickel chloride and sodium borohydride (Nickel Boride, my favorite reducting agent:P). Attached below either.

Attachment: aminoacids decarboxylation to nitriles and further reduction to amines with n-bromosuccnimide and nickel boride.PDF (66kB)
This file has been downloaded 608 times

I hope had brought something interesting to this discussion board guys:D




Chemical1mbalance - 22-1-2019 at 16:37

100g Xylitol placed in reaction vessel and heated to 130C. It seems to reach an easily workable viscosity at this temperature.

Added 2mL Spearmint oil

Added 5g Tryptophan in small increments, it seemed to form a layer on top and not want to mix in when added all at once.

Contents appear cream colored much like the PG mixture, now the heat is turned up. Right around 160C the mixture turns completely transparent with a orangish color to it. No bubbling was ever really noticed, but a really strong smell of tryptamine was noted. Continued heating thinking maybe at some point bubbling would commence, but it never did all the way up to 200C. Let mixture cool down and it turned into a clear amber colored jelly that smelled of tryptamine. When mixed with hot water the jelly dissolved and a whitish colored precipitation was forming and falling to the bottom. Never got a chance to test it, but I suspect it could have been tryptamine based on solubility.

Perhaps someone else with a little more knowledge may want to test this out as Xylitol is cheap, easy to work with, and pretty inert as far as sugar alcohols go. Also isn't supposed to have any carmelization reactions.

What I don't know is if at 160C a decarboxylation is taking place or if it is suddenly becoming soluble into the Xylitol...


[Edited on 23-1-2019 by Chemical1mbalance]

oblivionbubble - 31-8-2019 at 05:14

I have studied the decarboxylation of tryptophan to tryptamine for quite some time now.

I read everything on Rhodium Archive, several threads here and other forums, and quite a few papers.

There seems to be a handful of contradictory information in the mentioned resources i studied. So now I am left confused and do not know how to proceed.

Can someone help me out with recommendation on the best setup to use, given availability of chemicals.

Acetophenone was recommended, but looking the several synthesis I currently dont have the means to produce it.



Quote:



Ketone-catalyzed decarboxylation, as described by Drone #342:
Decarboxylation is accomplished by mixing about 80 g tryptophan in 250 mL of high-boiling solvent (xylene, DMSO, cyclohexanol, etc.), adding a dash of a ketone (I like 5 g of cyclohexanone, but a couple grams of MEK works reasonably well), heat it to around 150 deg, and when evolution of CO2 ceases/solution is clear, the reaction is complete. This takes anywhere from 1.5 to 4 hours. After this is over, the solvent is boiled off (or at least greatly reduced in volume), and the residue is dissolved in DCM. This is washed with a 5% NaHCO3 solution, then a distilled water solution, then the DCM layer is separated off, dried with MgSO4, and the DCM is boiled off. You now have reasonably pure tryptamine.




I used DMSO and cyclohexanone... I took almost 3 days for the bromine (amber) colored solution to become translucent. Ihad no idea how to reduce the DMSO amount significantly?

First run was a trainwreck, as i missed the no oxygen line. Ended up with weird mud.

2nd attempt was better, with a reflux condenser attached, however i had no way of verifying if the product indeed is tryptamine. Any tips on that?

Colorimetric reagents are useless, TLC ? I can submit it for laboratory analysis. I measured the gas evolution using a condom zip tied to the side neck. I guess a balloon would be a bit more stylish.

Solvents available:

Turpentine, DMF, Tetrahydronaphtalene, Acetonitrile, White Spirit, Mineral Oil, Isopropyl ether


Catalysts: acetone, cyclohexanone, Methyl-Iso-hutyl ketone


Also> Could I use the same procedure for melatonine and 5-HTP?

Thank you

oblivionbubble - 21-9-2019 at 15:16

Just a quick follow up. I decided to do the following:

In a 2L FBF (flat bottom flask?), placed on a magnetic hotplate, there was added 500 ml tetrahydronaphtalene, 160 g of tryptophan and a stir bar of suitable size.

Set the temp to 300 C and decent stirring.

For covering the top, i managed to find some sort of a gas preparation adapter which neatly closed the flask, yet allowed gas discharge through miniature opening.

I used Methyl-Iso-Butyl-Ketone, around 10 ml in the beggining and then several additions of couple mls as the end of the reaction was noowhere to be seen.

Now it seems like we are coming to the end, after around 24 hours at 150 / 300 degrees C.

Will provide the workup and yield.


P.S.

Ran a smaller scale decarboxylation with technical grade "white spirit" and cyclohexanone, which was complete after several h and provided satisfactory results.

Pumukli - 22-9-2019 at 03:28

There should be a TLC method for identification. p-dimethylamino-benzaldehyde -as I remember- can be used for indoles.

What is 150/300 degrees C? Hotplate was set to 300C but the mixture was refluxing at 150C or what?

oblivionbubble - 22-9-2019 at 03:55

Apologies for unclear text.

Yes, the hotplate was set to 300, the mixture averaged 150 and fluctuated between theesse numbers.

There were beautiful, white, almost transparent flakes of crystalline formation during the reaction. But....

I fuc+++ up. Wasnt so careful at the end, and the white degraded into engine grease : (

Is it still usable? I started with 160 g of tryptophan..... do not wish to fuck this up

Pumukli - 22-9-2019 at 10:43

Fuc+++ up is not IUPAC nomenclature, strictly speaking... :)

What happened? What did you do to achieve the engine grease state? Actually, did you do anything reckless or the reaction changed course and started to produce the grease on its own?

I wanted to write that experimenting at 160 g scale is cavalier only if you have a tried and proven method. Otherwise just silly. But you were already doing it so my warning would have been useless. Now you know. :)

Btw. something is still not clear. If I set my hotplate to say 300 C then the decarboxylation reaction is refluxing around 140 C in a fairly narrow range, say plus or minus 3-5 C !!! Surely not between 150 and 300 C. How did you measure the temperature of the mixture?

[Edited on 22-9-2019 by Pumukli]