Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Morgellons sindrome

gil - 16-1-2007 at 18:58

What's you people's opinion about this?
Shall we start a tread about it?
Does anyone look for concrete answher/explanation?

Proof ,picture,personal experiences? Anyone?
I'll say this is another like Helicobacterii pylori.
Or worst. I never put my foot in U.S. but this attitude from who knows (or should know) really boil my blood!!
How can they let people clearly in distress, child,etc
in the limbo (of knowledge)? What for? For the money?
may I ask some U.S. citizen ,Please, can you let me
know statistic about EDUCATION of Morgellons disease/sindrome sufferers? I bet nobody with a Medicine Laurea or similar is suffering or complaining about this FAKE
MYSTERY. IF MY idea is wrong, well, I may be on the road for
a Nobel,maybe.

Ozone - 16-1-2007 at 19:13

IF there is any fact associated with Morgellon's syndrome (rather than psychological hysteria), I'd bet on a fungus.

There is a support group for Morgellon's syndrome here:

http://www.morgellons.org/

Sauron - 16-1-2007 at 19:44

Or is this another fictitious disease like "the clam" that was being hyped out of Italy on the web a few years ago?

I never heard of it.

Anyway @gil, don't buy your RT ticket to Stockholm quite yet.

Sauron - 16-1-2007 at 19:56

Before assuming that this is not a hoax, check the Centers for Disease Control (Atlanta),, the JAMA, the Journal of Morbidity & Mortaility (which is the top epidemiological pub)

And if this unheard of foundation is only one NAMING this supposed syndrome, I wouldn't bother memorizing the name just yet either, because that's not how it works.

Mimics scabies and lice. I'd wait for some real dermatologists to have an opinion. Outside of Appalachia scabies is uncommon in US.

Sauron - 16-1-2007 at 20:10

The relevant part of NIH is called the National Institute for Allergic and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and if they are not on it - it does not exist.

So, are they on it?

gil - 16-1-2007 at 20:45

SO was Helicobacterio Pylori.Not the cause of ulcera.Impossible.IT DOES NOT EXIST.
Morgellon sindrome is caused by different factors all correlated between them. It is not any
Mistery here.But this is not for WHO MADE UP their mind already.I'm busy now. i'm off to check this italian clap,to see whath it is, if there are relevant similarity.Morgellons it is U.S. denomination only.Simptom
and pathogen (AND PATHOGEN'S PATHOGEN) are endemic.
Also US CITIZEN MAY CHECK old potassium permanganate/formaldeyde/alcohol shower cubicle.Have a look about the story of it.From discovery of the sistem, trough it's actual use, to the cause bringing that pratice to an end. Will not get you the truth,but it may helb get a bit closer.
I'm off for some PHILOSOPHER's stone now.Well deserved break.
But I need to ask a question here: OZONE & SAURON:
HAVE YOU BEEN TO UNIVERSITY? I'm not ,both of you know already. I need to know for myself.Not polemics or fussy.
overall critic is better than silence, but open your perspective a bit ,guys.And your eyes ,on this "morgellons" thinghy

[Edited on 17-1-2007 by gil]

Elawr - 16-1-2007 at 21:10

I am not familiar with Morgellon's syndrome, nor do I recall encountering any cases recently meeting diagnostic criteria. Does not appear to be a lot of literature on it, beyond some anectdotal accounts. The etiology for this recently described malady remains a mystery. It is likely that Morgellon's syndrome will turn out to be a disorder with multiple causes, rather than the result of some newly emerging or previously unknown pathogen.

It is said that the CDC launched some kind of investigation into this as of July 2006. So...we shall see!

[Edited on 17-1-2007 by Elawr]

Sauron - 16-1-2007 at 23:29

@gil:

How old are you? Chances are I was at university before you were a gleam in your Daddy's eye.

We are talking about medical science and you are talking some likely internet hogwash.

You want to polemicize about American medicine, go right ahead. I'm not the AMA. But (1) try to make sense and (2) get your facts straight first.

Skepticism is not the same thing as prejudgement. Do you really accept everything you read on a frigging website uncritically?

gil - 16-1-2007 at 23:34

IT IS EXACTLY as you said,Elawr ,it's a multicausal skin disorder; most (if not all) well know.All correlated.
GRAM + and GRAM- ;ascaridi; protozoa,Filamentous bacteria, skin fungus ;algae, parassite,
Parassite of the parassite, etc. I take you are a praticioner, Elawr,are you? Wath is CDC?
THERE IS NO MISTERY, there is no single pathogen agent,But what this people experience is real.
The growth are algae, maybe fungus too,and filamentous. Live on the limphatic sistem,some on the blood,like filariae,and on the skin,sometime protected by a biofilm.This biofilm can be very strong, can grow and can move.It's sensitive to electrolite,to acids and bases.Most organisms are invisible under daylight/artificial light Some colored light and polarized light give better results.Some of them can move at incredible speed both outside and inside the body. some can carry small quantity of cream "with them"trough the body linfatic sistem.in a 1/10 of a second.
some are used industrially, like to make patterns on syntetic crocodile skin. some may have not been studied yet.
I found a way to color some of them while they are in the body.as soon as you mark them on a finger ,they can move TO THE OTHER HAND. And I don't belive I m the only one who know about it. I think
this is a member of the protea class.
I CAME ACROSS MORGELLONS(A SCAM) WHILE RESEARCHING ALL THE ABOVE.
ENGLISH INFORMATION IS SCARCE. I@M LUCKY I CAN SUPPORT IT with other 3 language i can fluently
read. All information is scarce.I understand why some information are scarce,but I don't understand this
MORGELLONS MISTERY SCAM THINKS.THE NAME IS A SCAM.
THE SINDROME IT'S REAL

[Edited on 17-1-2007 by gil]

MargaretThatcher - 17-1-2007 at 07:59

I thought Morgellons was constructed to promote the film A Scanner Darkly.

Ozone - 17-1-2007 at 17:19

Yes...

I am working on a PhD in Organic/Polymer Synthesis. I was persuing Toxicology, but decided that I did not like decapitating (well, severing the spinal chord thereof) guinea pigs and the like.

This time spent in research has provided me with one additional skill: cautious skepticism. I will not quash the idea immediately, but I prefer to see some data before passing judgement.

I have been watching this Morgellon's phenomena for some time, and remain unconvinced as the the etiology of the "disease" can usually be explained by some other, far more mundane means. For example, many of the "bits" removed from these lesions look suspiciously like synthetic fibers (or ingrown hairs) wrapped up in sebacious materials (grease, sebum, etc.).

In my memory the only agents producing rugged filaments like these are fungi (the fibers protrayed are almost like nylon or monofilament for fishing), but I have yet to see a fruiting body (or mycelium) in any of the representative micrographs.

From their own accounts, the leader of this organization is, I think, a nurse. As such, it seems plausable that she feels that there is genuine gravity to the condition and has organized these groups of people. I think that this group has become large enough to merit the investigation of the CDC, but an investigation doe not a disease make (until some pharma Co. makes a drug to cure it;)).

At any rate, for me, the court is still in session,

O3

Hilski - 17-1-2007 at 18:14

I assure you this is a real disease (infection/fungus/allergy/autoimmune disorder) or whatever. Obviously there are going to be some people who are out for attention or are just plain crazy, going on about some bizzar disease with symptoms from some sci-fi movie. But I have witnessed first hand the suffering of a couple of people who have this 'disease' and cannot be treated because no one can find out exactly what the problem is. One of them went from being a perfectly healthy young lady, to an ill, immuno compromised (no one knows why) skeleton of her former self. Almost all of her hair has fallen out, and she has many small open sores.
Her first somptoms were similar to what one would typically see if they had contracted body mites, or the like. The dermatologist she saw assumed that was the case and prescribed the usual treatment, but of course it didn't work. Nothing has worked. As of about 6 months ago (the last time I saw her) the problem had spread to her brain, where several leasions began showing up on brain scans which were done after she started having neurological problems. This woman is only in her 30's and she will no doubt die from this eventually.
Now, I'm no doctor, or biologist or anything else that has to do with the medical field. But I can tell you this thing is real. It is getting more and more attention from infectious disease specialist these days. But this thing has been around for years, and years and the fact that it was ignored for so long by most "experts" (i.e. CDC) has and will cause major problems in the future.
I do not have the disease, and I'm not on any crusade to try and persuade anyone who is skeptical. I just wanted to put it out there that I personally know that something, whatever it is, is definately making a lot of people sick. And no one knows what to do about it.
For what it's worth I also think it could be a fungus, or possibly a parasite of some sort.

Ozone - 17-1-2007 at 18:37

Hmm.

Idiopathic diseases.

I'd really like to get a representative set of blood samples from these people.

1) heavy metal panel (explains many of the skin/cognitive issues)
2) CLP pesticides (chloracne with the toxidrome is also implicated, as would be the wasting--this is not generally associated with Morgellon's at this time)
3) 1 and 2 have both been known to trigger mast cell degranulation and subsequent autoimmune syndromes
4) Decent epidemiology would be great here, clusters have been reported ( on the site) and 1 and/or 2 would also be coincident with that hypothesis.
5) Examine patient for auxilliary infection, say in lymph, where it can spread out--this is hit-or-miss and may not turn up anything even if the patient *does* have the problem. This would still be quite unusual for a bacterial infection (these tend to fulminate when entrenched this tenaciously), less unusual for a virus (like herpes or varicella zoster, which also has some similar symptoms in some patients) , and, I suppose, a slow fungus might be feasible. The nueralgia and sores would be consistant with latent V. zoster (shingles).

None of this accounts for the filamentous extrusion, however. Does your friend have these?

Just thinking,

O3

Sauron - 17-1-2007 at 18:37

Well there are such things as orphan diseases, which get little attention and funding because they are too rare. A recent well publicized example are the leukodystrophies (see movie "Lorenzo's Oil") where it took the extraordinary efforts of intelligent parents to develop a treatment for their dying son. They were World Bank officials, not scientists, but in the face of failure by the medical establishment they taught themselves chemistry, physiology, biuchem, etc and came up with a succesful hypothesis of the mechanism of the disease. And a proposed treatment. The film is actually fairly close to what actually happened. Their ereucid acid therapy did work, but not as universally as the movie makes out. It worked on some ALD kids and not on others. Their Myelin Foundation continues today, although the woman portrayed so memorably by Susan Sarandon has recently passed away.

I am not particularly suggesting that there is a facile cure for "morgellan's" awaiting amateur discovery but just that apparently until now whatever this is, has been just another orphan. The pharm industry must pick its fights and so must government, resources are finite. Every dollar we spend on disease X is a dollar we don't spend in HIV, SARS, avian influenza, ebola, falciparum malaria, etc etc etc. Who wants to play God and make decisions about what gets funded and what does not?

As the old saying goes, don't play God, because the position is not vacant, and you're no good at it anyway.

Ozone - 17-1-2007 at 19:00

Quote:
Originally posted by Ozone
(until some pharma Co. makes a drug to cure it;)).

Entirely too true, Sauron. Even so, much of the funding goes to those who produce minimal results in maximum time n order to secure...more funding.

God saves souls...and redeems them for valuable prizes,

O3

Ozone - 17-1-2007 at 20:27

M-kay,

Further perusal indicates that the fibers are effeiciently stained by calcofluor white, which react with polysaccharide polymers, particularly, those consistant with amoebaic cysts. The paricular amoeba of note, amoeba, Acanthamoeba, feeds on bacteria and as such, symptoms from either are either are difficult to deconvolute (the typical etiology of infection is ocular, particularly regarding abrasions due to contact lenses). An intersting bit of information is given here:

http://archopht.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/104/9/1309
then:
http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic10.htm

I do not think that this is exactly what we are looking for, but the possibility of dual infection is not defunct. [edit 1] On second thought, Acanthamoeba is known to be pathogenic in man producing a slew of neurological symptoms; I'd keep my eye on this one since Dr.s don't generally look for amoebas in N. Americans...

Let us examine other things which stain positive with calcofluor white, which seems specific for chitin (poly acetylglucosamine) or polysaccharides containing this moeity (unfortunately, bug parts would stain positive). [edit 2] I don't see, however any photographs using plane-polarized light, so, until I know more, the "birefringence" is suspect.

Well, here is a protist that produces "filaments" (although small by comparison with Morgellon's) and finds it's host in mosquitoes (is it possible that it has changed enough to find a reservoir or even a vector in the same species?).

a bit on Helicosporidia:

http://helicosporidia.ifas.ufl.edu/index2.shtml

[edit 3] Further, another protist, previously termed Megabacteria, now, a pathogenic yeast called Macrorhabdis orthanogaster, has been found (originally in budgies, but also in Rheas, Ostriches, etc.). This organism proved fatal to mice when injected interperitoneal. Some details are given here (bird poop vector to mammalian pathogenicity):

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/abmvz/v58n3/31018.pdf

Onward,

O3

[Edited on 18-1-2007 by Ozone]

[Edited on 18-1-2007 by Ozone]

[Edited on 18-1-2007 by Ozone]

[Edited on 18-1-2007 by Ozone]

Sauron - 17-1-2007 at 20:47

Here's a proposal that is almost serious, let me run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes.

1. This forum constitutes a community with a lot of intellectual resources and scientific knowledge that is highly diverse.

2. It is fair to say that we also have a leetle PR problem in the eyes of at least some observers.

3. Suppose those of us with the skills, jointly or severally, review orphan diseases and look for one that hold some promise of being tractible. I mean tractible by highly motivated amatuers, in same way that ALD was.

4. If we identify any candidate orphan diseases we again, jointly or severally, commence research on potential treatment.

If we get anywhere maybe they will make a film about us.

At the very least we would be able to point at the effort and show our critics that we are not mad bombers, drug crazed sociopaths and/or terrorists.

Orphan diseases by definition are those without enough of a patient base to be profitable, for the big drug companies.

The drug companies face enormous R&D costs and enormous lengthy FDA application costs and costs of clinical trials.

The parents of Lorenzo didn't face any of those. They faced an intellectual challenge to try to stave off a personal tragedy that was unacceptable to them. They rationalized the biomechanism of the disease, they proposed a treatent. First oleic acid. So obvious. It was partially succesful. They proposed another unsaturated acid, ereucid acid, the main constituent of rapeseed oil, instead of oleic acid. (Both in triglyceride form). The doctor advising them barfed on that because of heart disease in rat studies. Meanwhile their son's drain was demyelinating rapidly and so they didn't give a damn about heart disease in rats. They obtained the ester and tried it on their own hook. It worked.

You take my point?

We have more scientific background than they did (they had none.)

Surely there may just be such worthy challanges out there that merely need some cogitation to defeat?

It's worth a look isn't it?

We aren't going to cure cancer. But we might cure SOMETHING.

And it might even be fun trying because thank God none of us has a dying child of our own to motivate us.

[Edited on 18-1-2007 by Sauron]

Ozone - 17-1-2007 at 21:05

Sauron,

I'm in, see above post (which is growing as I know more *without* increasing post count;)). That sound's like a great idea to me.

Go Saints!

O3

Sauron - 17-1-2007 at 21:30

Some general comments on the concept

If possible no doctors (MDs) just because if any are involved they will hog all the credit. (If any). Med students are okay. EX med students even better.

It needs to be something that seems tractible but that essentially no one else is currently working on. It might be hard to find a disease that meets both criteria.

We can's post progress or blog this because if we are getting anywhere some other team may see it on the net and grab it. we need to think in terms of intellectual property - even if in the end we license it out freely, we want SM to have the credit.

If we get anywhere we probably ought to organize a nonprofit foundation with a respectable name so we can solicit grants etc.

Obviously these are just my personal ramblings, open for comment. Thjis is supposed to be a group venture. A collection of amateur Don Quixotes tilting at medical windmills. Proving that amateurs have a contribution to make.

So much is serendipity. Perkin's fortune rested on an accidental dye. Fleming's penicillin on a pice of moldy bread. Perking got to take the rest of his life off at a young age and do "pure" science because he got so filthy rich off his dyes.

gil - 17-1-2007 at 22:36

OZONE is gettin near and near.You seem to have very good knowledge.Algae,fungus, filamentous bacteria ,lichens,all may have something to share whith it.

All to often pratictioner, family docs. ,have to cater for any kind of complaint. If they aren't familiar whith it,
Reference books are used. But if the patient complaint it's not on the book, that it's a blind lane.

Specialists, a Microbiologist in this case, use "Markers" , reagents, to investigate. They can find what they
know,new or mutant pathogens may easily go undetected.I think the same apply to DNA / RNA. (not sure)

In dermatology cross-diagnosis are all to common. Uncertain causes abound.
Ascariology can classify only 5-10 % of estimative total organism ( 50.000 out of 500.000-1.000.00 if my memory still working). I don't know bacteria figures, but I'm confortable to say much still out in the dark.
To add a bit of speculation, ice melting may add a few newcomers.
Parasitology is making good progress. New unconventional approach are opening new roads.I see this
it's just the beginning. I think Medicine ,in general, is picking up "momentum", in a better direction,too.
One of the big breaktrough of the last century, antibiotics, show too many limits.Maybe will end up
as phenols did : good, but not enough for future society standards. We are already antiquate, for future generations. If eventual big breaktroughs will be deemed "pratical" or profitable, it's another matter.

We are so many now. Disease can spin money around, but better healthcare can be a moneyspinner too.
aaallleeluujaaa

gil - 17-1-2007 at 23:03

HILSKI.
whath your friend has is more like an amoebae abscess."Morgellons" simptom mnemonics does not aqccount for morbidity. It's a derma's complaint. That's why received little attention from medicine.
P.s. Body mites prognosis HAS to be done collecting scraping of derma and put them UNDER THE MICRO. The guy(?) can't
just <assume> thinks up! This may be ground for a compensation case.
SAURON.
I n my opinion , it's not a single pathogen. The fibre maybe, but other simptom differ.I'm talking about the
flying , fast object flashing past the visual field corner, for example.
I wouldn't be surprised if will slowly reduce incidence, and stop once more. to reappear the next generation.effimerous morgellons!
The Appalachian Indians, they had good Knowledge, centuries ago,by that way.

[Edited on 18-1-2007 by gil]

Sauron - 17-1-2007 at 23:25

@gil, I don't think I made any remark about a single causitive organism. Syndrome implies multiplicity.

And I was talking about the mountains and region not the tribe. It is fashionable these days to attribute all sorts of wonderful qualities to native Americans of old. Personally I am a little sick of such revisionist claptrap.

gil - 18-1-2007 at 00:11

@ sauron
That's why I call it sindrome not disease.
Appalachian= cue (maybe unrelated,maybe not .I'm trying to find out).More will follow.

Scabies < /> mites>Every 30 40 years : Explosion cases wordlwide.40 & 75 years ago :lesser investigative tecnology. Also U may check DDT first deployment.I.ll back to it.No good noW

neutrino - 18-1-2007 at 00:16

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
We can's post progress or blog this because if we are getting anywhere some other team may see it on the net and grab it. we need to think in terms of intellectual property - even if in the end we license it out freely, we want SM to have the credit.


If we're afraid of people stealing our work, why not put the thread in Whimsy? That subforum is not indexed by Google so I doubt anyone but a member of this forum would even know about this effort.

Sauron - 18-1-2007 at 00:42

Scabies are a problem in Cambodia but absent in Thailand.

It's a difficult infestation to get rid of. All clothing and bedding, linen etc must be landered at heat for a specified period, the affected individuals apply a specific topical cream* head to tow except for face. Nothing else is efficacious.

Canine scabies similar and are cause of mange; canine scabies can infest humans only transiently as they cannot reproduce on humans.

* If memory serves a 1-2% ointment of Lindane (benzene hexachloride) not to be confused with hexachlorobenzene however!

Sauron - 18-1-2007 at 00:49

@neutrino, considering that recently a senior forum staffer (super admin) posted the PW to both References and Whimsy in the open, and neither has been changed since then -- it hardly seems like the most secure idea to me.

Anyway I am not sure if secrecy is a good idea. The Adones (Lorenzo's parents) sponsored an international conference on ALD and published their paper of the biochemistry of the disease. So, this entire idea if it is to get anywhere needs to be carefully considered from all angles. Maybe it's something that deserves to be in Whimsy after all, but not for secrecy. Maybe it is just whimsical.

Sauron - 18-1-2007 at 00:58

@Ozone and @gil, would you look into the effects of overuse of Lindane cream on a suspected scabies infestation in pediatric patients?

This stuff is not very benign, at all. But it is the specific ectoparisiticide. It is to be used once, and if condition persists once again after a specified period. Some of the images I saw were on webbing between fingrs, typical sites for scabies activity. I am just wondering whether some sufferers might have applied Lindane cream too often/too heavily and/or some children might have been sensitized, and this could be part of the "syndrome" particularly if dermatologists invariably intially diagnosed scabies and dispensed Lindane topically as a matter of routine.

See what you think. Examine particularly from the chloracne angle.

[Edited on 18-1-2007 by Sauron]

Sauron - 18-1-2007 at 03:18

Okay here's my data dump so far:

1. Lindane is still a commonly prescribed pediculicide as ointment and shamposs for head lice, crab lice (public lice) and human scabies.

2. It is a suspected carcinogen and has been banned in California, banned in US for head lice (but not scabies) and banned in 52 countries.

3. It is still unfortunately on approved lists of Mericare/Medicaid and many state systems in US and thus, likely to be prescribed to families on welfare who are precisely the socioeconomic level most likely to need treatment for scabies. (the poor.)

4. Due to the manner in which is is packeged in 2 oz (70ml) quantities it is believe that children, especially and indeed all those under 50 Kg weight and the elederly and immuno compromised people as well as people on certain medications or with seizure disorders are likely to have an increased body burder from Lindane and be subject to its toxic effects, including neurotoxicity.

5. Lindane has not been produced in the US since the mid 1970s.

6. There are ongoing state, national and global efforts to eliminate Lindane use.

7. Chemically Lindane is 99% gamma hexachlorocyclohexane (g-HCH) or gamma-benzene hexachloride (g-BHC).

8. It is the least effective of four major pediculicides and the others are (i.e., 1% permethrin, 0.3% pyrethrin, and 0.5% malathion. Note: none of these is like a walk in the park with your best girl. Malathion is an organophosphorus inhibitor of AChE (in other words a first cousin of nerve gases.)

In summary, I would like to see a correlation between what pediculicide was prescribed to the 8000+ households claimed to be affected with Morgellon's. Age of patients. Immunological status. Other concurrent medications.

Lindane looks like a likely participant so let's confirm or eliminate its role.

Sauron - 18-1-2007 at 03:58

HALT!

Before wasting any more time and energy on this BULLSHIT please everyone have a look at the following website:

http://morgellonswatch.com/2006/10/29/morgellons-and-dermato...

In short the psychiatric and dermatologic professionals regard this as a DOP manifestation (Delusions of Persecution).

@gil, why do you have us chasing neurotic fantasies?

They say the "fibers" are environmental in origin.

What we have is media hype, internet hype, and no substance at ALL.

Next case please.

Ozone - 18-1-2007 at 04:28

I did propose that the fibers looked suspect. For reference, for organochlorine pesticides, lindane is relatively benign. I suspect that over exposure would cause chlorachne (so in this case, overtreatment could also be a causal).

Eczema is another ideopathic disease; lot's of people are working on it, but little in the way of results have been issued. I tend toward autoimmune, possibly in conjunction with a virus. Enbrel (for rheumatoid arthritus has been prescribed with mixed results to treat eczema). Stress seems to make outbreaks worse (like say, latent viral infection).

Well, I must be off to play with the chemicals (work),

O3

MargaretThatcher - 18-1-2007 at 04:33

Seriously, this is a hoax. A few websites popped up promoting the syndrome with fictitious institutions and medics. It was debunked somewhere - maybe on boingboing. There are very close parallels between Morgellon's syndrome and symptoms presented by characters in the A Scanner Darkly (the book).

Sauron - 18-1-2007 at 04:36

The professionals are saying hysteric and psychosomatic rather than ideopathic.

Overlaying a variety of physical and mental disorders.

I'm rolling over and going back to sleep, Margellon's is a non event.

nitro-genes - 18-1-2007 at 06:45

About this Morgellons syndrome, it doesn't necessarily has to be a pathogen OR phychogically induced! :)

Stomach ulcers for example are caused by infection of Heliobacter Pylori, as gil mentioned. But although we find this bacteria at the place of infection, it doesn't mean that it is the cause of the disease! For stomach ulcers it is proven that increased levels of stress affect the amount and composition of the acid in the stomach, resulting in a damaged stomach wall from which the bacterium (which had been present all along) can profit...
Stress in general is proven to reduce your ability to fight off pathogens, so in this way it is really not that strange that psychological factors can have a significant influence on your physical well beeing. So it is probably a combination of many factors. Just like heart disease now seems to be a combination of genetic inheritability, food habits, stress, and viruli...:)

[Edited on 18-1-2007 by nitro-genes]

Sauron - 18-1-2007 at 08:12

Yes yes, all that is well known.

The essential test for pathology is whether or not the pathogen will cause the disease if introduced into a healthy organism.

If H.pylon is endemic, and only opportunistically attacks stomach wall in some individuals, and not others than it isn't pathogenic is it? It's imply a common gut florum.

Anyway I was under the impression that was a virus and not a bacterium. But for immediate purposes it matters little.

nitro-genes - 18-1-2007 at 08:53

It's not a pathogen like the flu for exampe, but there are a lot of these rare diseases that are a combination of reduced immune responses or other abnormalities, and an organism that normally isn't pathogenic. I heard this grewsome story once of a man that had an abnormality in the blood/brain barrier, that made it possible for a very common, normally harmless fungus to become a pathogen, able to resist the immune system, and feeding from his brainmatter...:o Just a combination of the wrong organism at the wrong time and place...
I'm quite sure that if this syndrome really exists it would be something like this. I mean if it would be pathogenic then it could potentially be contagious as well, but it isn't, just like stomach ulcers and other common dermic fungus attacks...

[Edited on 18-1-2007 by nitro-genes]

gil - 18-1-2007 at 17:01

@sauron
lindane is also banned in my birt's country and the country where I'm living now. Syntethics "pirethrene"
analogues are used instead. I'm going By memory here. Doctors, Accademia, Wouldn't touch Lindane Whithout gloves on!
Other Western country ban syintethic "pyretrum" for Human Topical use. They use Benzyl Benzoate as first line treatment on that "Scabei whatsisnamenow". Ah,Sarcoptes scabei.
None of those country experience Morgellons hysteria.

Some protozoa can "engulf"(?) cells,molecolas,atoms, BITS ,particulate of foreign matter whithin themselve,inside their bodies, and carry it along. This same organisms are know Intradermal traveller.
(Whoah, whatta wordl). And the Foreign cells get binded,in this process.

Lorenzo's parents ( forgot name now) HAD TO GET PURIFIED OLIVE OIL FROM A U.K. COMPANY.oleic acid.
I dont think that was due to the 70" oil crisis no? More likely "lobbyng" ; reactionarist accademia.

Helicobacterium Pylori discovery,as Ulcera causal agent, came from that young doctor who used is own body as cavia, after he "politely" presented his finding to Higher Medical autorities. And CURED himself
whith cheap antibiotics, instead of using the expensive (>20x?) treatment available and indicated for it.
We know the rest of the stories. Now the two example above are widely used and accepted.

Thanks Gods this people were "a bit stubborn".



"morgellons" is not a treathening disease, by medicine standards. It's not infective, and may very vell be endemic.
Surely goes for compromised hosts, like most opportunistic
infection. There is a lot of talk about the "fibre" but when
I found out about it, 6 month ago circa, I noted other
"strange" simptom too. The " flashes" at the corners of the
visual field, came to my mind now, and maybe other peculiar ones. Nobody mention it, here.


[Edited on 19-1-2007 by gil]

gil - 18-1-2007 at 17:12

To the people out there

I started this tread askin' personal opinion,and EXPERIENCE. Its not about who is right.

Don't get frightened, also if you get a FISH WHACK on the neck, it's virtual ,digital.

Funny chemical dermatitis exp. are welcome,too.


("you wanna buy's some Mandy's bar's???) >> FLAKE'S :> sheik yerbuti.

Sauron - 19-1-2007 at 00:05

It wasn't purified olive oil they got from the UK it was purified triglyceride ester of ereucid acid, from rapeseed oil.

And there wasn't any magic about the source being in the UK, that was totally accidental. They previously HAD obtained the oelic acid triglyceride they first tried from a US company. So what? It could just as easily have been a Lower Slobbovian company. It does not signify anything.

The whole stupid Morgellons thing is about the idiotic MEDIA hyping up a fantasy concocted by some idiotic neurotics hypochondriacs. Why? Because bad news sells. Americans love a new "mystery disease" whether or not it is real. About the only thing they would love more would be a new mystery STD.

It's INANE.

gil - 19-1-2007 at 03:35

They couldn't get it in US because of locked doors. I can go out now and back in 5 min whith a stone of I2 ,to make a trivial example.

Sauron - 19-1-2007 at 04:13

@gil, that is not in the film. SO are you making that up or do you have an inside source at the Myelin Foundation?

If so it's odd you can't remember the family name Adone.

My point was that they scoured the planet for the stuff, and the first chemist who was willing to undertake to make it, mostly because he was about to retire and was bored with a lifetime of making cosmetics, happened to be British.

If you want to start drawing inferences out of thin air, about as far as logic might support is that maybe just maybe a non-US firm was less intimidated by the US FDA than American firms were.

But remember we are not talking about anything othernthan a pure naib component of rapeseed oil, a monounsaturated fatty acid of specific carbon chain length, esterified with glycerin

gil - 19-1-2007 at 08:38

@SAURON
Yes, adone's. I saw film 85<>90"s. I.was curios, I read the story in reliable font, by memory olive oil
was the first used precursor.No data, is the stuff so hard to make? No U S lab had the thech for it?
Film are just stories, but I got this as mega- purified oil in my mind. In the film they refluxed few time, that's it , Hollywood, but I never read was any "rocket science involved.It was working crude.
So did they have support from Doctors from the early stages?was a easy serendiptious discovery.?
Rethinking I can see interest from docs and pharma/ny.

Sauron - 20-1-2007 at 02:26

Z-13-docosenoic acic or delta13-cis-docosenoic acid.

Erucic acid triglyceride is not particularly hard to prepare but apparently at the time it was not readily available in pure form either as the free acid or as the ester. The technical problem was to seperate pure erucic acid from rapeseed oil in which it is admixed with other fatty acids. According to the film, this was a "difficult fractionation".

As chemists we are often faced with difficult seperations and generally solving them is a matter of time and that means man-hours at the bench.

I would have suggested preparative HPLC as a means of accomplishing the same seperation, but I wasn't there and apparently fractional distillation did the job.

I assume that the purity was required to demonstrate that this specific monounsaturaed fatty acid blocked the ALD process by competitive inhibition.

Did American companies have the technical expertise to prepare pure erucic triglyceride? Don't make me laugh.

Whether an American company would have knowingly supplied a non-FDA approved substance for medicinal use, is the question. Apparently if the film is accurate one US firm did exactly that with the oleoyl triglyceride they had on the shelf but they asked for full indemnification from all liability. In practice, I think that is probably not how it went. I think the company would have had to, on any sort of official level, been ignorant of the intended use, because I don't think the Adones COULD indemnify then otherwise, effectively, against potential FDA recriminations.

Which is why all chemical catalogs carry bold disclaimers about NOT FOR PHARMACEUTICAL USE.

Beyond these general observations, I suggest consulting the Merck Index on ereucic acid, the literature in general on same, we ought to have something on rapeseed oil in the forum library, and with a little reading we can see just how tough a seperation this might have been. Interesting?

K.S.Markley, Fatty Acids Part 1, 2nd.Ed, Wiley Interscience (1960) p138-139

Crude erucic acid from rapeseed oil: Org.Syn. CV 2, p.258

Purer sample: Doree and Pepper, J.Chem.Soc. 1942 p.477

Pure erucic acid: Chobanov et al,Chem & Ind (London) 1965 p.606

Synthesis: Bowman, J.Chem Soc. 1950, Bounds, J.Chem.Soc. 177, 3251953, p.2393

It's apparent from reading the Org.Syn. procedure that the "difficult fractionation" is the removal of small percentages of aranchnoic and other saturated fatty acids. As saturated fatty acids were what was killing Lorenzo or more precisely what was demyelinating his brain, it would not do to feed him any more.

[Edited on 20-1-2007 by Sauron]

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prica - 28-1-2007 at 07:00

Alla deriva!!!
This is SO off topic ,now.
Never mind. I like the "singin pig" proverb.
Dont try it. One get annoyed,the other ,frustrated ! PASS

Mr. Wizard - 31-1-2007 at 10:09

It's Syndrome not sindrome, and Mystery, not mistery.
I think this falls into the UFO and alien abduction categories. Where is the video of this stuff ??? :P

Hilski - 1-2-2007 at 07:26

Quote:
Where is the video of this stuff ???

Over the last few years there have been quite a few TV news stories from all over the country about this very thing, including an expose by ABC News' "Primetime". Just do a search. Those who believe it is all just a hoax need to overcome the logical brainwashing that outdated medical training has caused, and have a look around at the real world.

Here is a link to a story about a physician who had the 'disease'. This story exposes the arrogance and ignorance which a lot of so-called medical professionals seem to have when it comes to a problem that they can't find an answer to in their textbooks. After all, if Dr. so and so hasn't heard of it, it can't be real can it? Nah, that patient must be delusional. What bullshit.

http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/stories/20060820/localn...

For those who wish to send questions directly to the CDC: morgellonssyndrome@cdc.gov



[Edited on 1-2-2007 by Hilski]

[Edited on 1-2-2007 by Hilski]

Sauron - 5-2-2007 at 22:54

Anyone who seeks truth from television news is already delusional, even without this bogus ailment.

Hilski - 6-2-2007 at 10:10

Quote:
Over the last few years there have been quite a few TV news stories from all over the country about this very thing, including an expose by ABC News' "Prime time"

Please point out the phrase in the above quote that implies anything about gleaning truth from TV news. I distrust most TV news organizations as much as anyone, since all they seem to be about anymore is entertainment. I was simply replying to the question someone posed about "videos of this stuff" of which there are plenty. But as I have stated earlier I have seen firsthand, an old acquaintance waste away to nothing because of this disorder. So I have no need to seek truth from anyone on this matter.

Mr. Wizard - 6-2-2007 at 19:29

"So I have no need to seek truth from anyone on this matter."

No more discussion , or thinking, needed :o

[Edited on 7-2-2007 by Mr. Wizard]

Pyridinium - 9-3-2007 at 11:03

I just did a little web search on this "Morgellons". Interesting to say the least. I remain skeptical but undecided.

It would appear Randy Wymore is a real fiber expert. If what I'm reading is true, the man has more experience with fiber microscopy than any 10 dermatologists or psychiatrists put together. By dismissing everything about Morgellons (especially the "fibers"), we are impugning Dr. Wymore's competence or honesty. That seems a little harsh.

There are people who'd like to relegate chronic lyme sufferers to the realm of psychiatry, despite the fact science has established without a doubt that microbes can produce toxic agents. We also know some of these agents can persist for a long time while remaining extremely hard to detect in human tissue.

I agree with Sauron in that the amateur science community should study this supposed "Morgellons disease". Think of it this way: if it turns out to be real, then you've made a contribution. If it turns out to be imaginary, then you've debunked something using actual scientific method instead of the old saw of "it's not what's said, it's who says it".

Sauron - 9-3-2007 at 11:26

IIRC Lyme's is caused by a spirochete carried by ticks. Spirochetes are bacteria and easy to spot; the most famous spirochete being syphilis. Fortunately they are also easy to kill. Left untreated they will wreak havoc in the CNS because of lesions created by their colonies, and at that stage it is too late to kill them, because you'd kill the patient. In syphilis, that's the tertiary stage, aka paresis, insanity and death. The way Al Capone went. I believe Lyme's follows same slow course.

Obviously, if the sufferer is succesfully treated but remains in an area where the tick vector is endemic, he or she can be reinfected. One can imagine a recurring cycle that could appear to be "chronic" and if mismanaged, could eventually lead to real neurological impairment with psychiatric consequences.

I am not aware that the Lyme spirochete produces toxins, That would be easy to test, just culture the bitch and see if it produces anything potent. I would not think the microbiology boys and girls would have missed this.

sparkgap - 9-3-2007 at 18:04

Apparently, Borrelia burgdorferi does produce a toxin, says this source and the abstract here. What is still being doubted is whether the toxin plays a major role in the pathophysiology of Lyme disease.

sparky (~_~)

Pyridinium - 9-3-2007 at 21:17

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
That would be easy to test, just culture the bitch and see if it produces anything potent. I would not think the microbiology boys and girls would have missed this.


I don't have time right now to dig up more papers, but try this one:

Barbour, A.G., Maupin, G.O., Teltow, G.J., Carter, C.J., and Piesman, J. "Identification of an Uncultivable Borrelia Species in the Hard Tick Amblyomma americanum: Possible Agent of a Lyme Disease-like Illness." J. Infect. Dis. 173:403-409 (1996).

Sauron - 9-3-2007 at 22:31

"Uncultivable" means they haven't found the proper medium yet, that's all. I don't think there's such a thing as inherently uncultivable bacilli, but, it's not my expertise.

Pyridinium - 9-3-2007 at 23:50

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
"Uncultivable" means they haven't found the proper medium yet, that's all. I don't think there's such a thing as inherently uncultivable bacilli, but, it's not my expertise.


You are partly correct in that the proper medium or growing method has not yet been found. But for some species this may not happen any time soon. Too little is known about them.

Not trying to be pedantic, but spirochetes are not bacilli. That's a horse of another color ;)

Edit: more about uncultivables is at
http://www.marinescience.neu.edu/facultystaff/lewis.html
According to the page, "The riddle of uncultivable microorganisms has been recognized as the main challenge for basic and applied research in microbiology by the American Society for Microbiology (Young, 1997). "

That paper by Young isn't listed at the bottom of that page, sadly.

[Edited on by Pyridinium]

Sauron's idea

chemrox - 26-3-2007 at 22:43

I think it's a great idea. I think we could include a well known disease/syndrome; petroleum addiction. There are many avenues open to work on:

1) Reviving the Fischer-Troppe to make it start with CO2 instead of CO

2) Polymers to support catalysts for converting vegetable oil to biodiesel

3) more efficient more cost-effective ways of getting the glycerol out of biodiesel

4) sequestration of CO2 formed in fermenation to make fuels and organic starting compounds like pentanol and benzaldehyde

These are a few of the challenges in the synfuel arena and if this group could, as a group, with joint credits, make significant progress it would be noteworthy and I believe noted.

I got out of medicinal chemistry because I hated being inside all the time and got involved in alternative energy instead. I still have a lot of interest in solving the energy/environmental crisis. I believe a lot of solutions will come from different arenas; elctronics/electricity, geophysics, petroleum chemisrty and synfuel chemistry. we might plug in somewhere and make a difference. Whether we get recognition is secondary to me.