Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Sodium Percarbonate & Epsom Salts

Zedlum - 3-6-2017 at 20:44

... in hot water.

I need to understand if and how these two substances react or interact in hot water.

I know that sodium percarbonate dissolved in water yields a mixture of hydrogen peroxide (which eventually decomposes to water and oxygen) and sodium carbonate.

What I need to understand is if Epsom Salts, which in water, breaks down into magnesium and sulfate, will interact with the sodium percarboate and some how change the result.

Thanks in advance.

j_sum1 - 3-6-2017 at 23:23

You sound slightly muddled. Let's see if I can help.

Sodium percarbonate is perhaps inappropriately named. It is an adduct of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide. So when dissolved will give a solution of sodium carbonate and hydrogen peroxide in water. So you are correct here.

Magnesium sulfate does not "break down into magnesium and sulfate". It dissolves in water. The resulting solution has dissociated ions of magnesium (Mg2+) and sulfate ions (SO42–) which are mobile in the solution. A similar thing happens with the sodium percarbonate solution where you have mobile sodium ions and carbonate ions.

Adding the two solutions together gives a precipitation reaction. You are trying to create a mixture of sodium ions, carbonate ions, magnesium ions, sulfate ions and hydrogen peroxide. The problem with this little mixture is that magnesium carbonate is not really soluble. This means that when magnesium ions are in the vicinity of carbonate ions it is energetically favourabe for them to combine together in a crystal lattice. This may be observed as a fine solid suspension appearing in your mixture.

Exactly the same thing will happen with sodium carbonate as sodium percarbonate. The presence of hydrogen peroxide here is really incidental to the precipitation process in this case.


Hope this helps. Welcome to SM. If you stick around you will find a lot of interesting and helpful chemistry being discussed.
This kind of question, without citing a scientific paper belongs in the beginning section. Or even better, for a short Q&A, in the short questions thread. A mod will probably move it there shorty.

AJKOER - 4-6-2017 at 13:52

J_Sum1:

Normally your statement about a double salt (here, for those interested, the actual commercial product is generally under 50% Na2CO3 plus a majority of the percarbonate, 2Na2CO3.3H2O2) upon dissolving and simply undergoing dissociation would be correct, but working with commercial products can, at time, be more complex, as there is, for one, an additional equilibrium reaction occuring, namely:

CO3(2-) + H2O2 = CO4(2-) + H2O

I once experimented by adding NaOCl (chlorine bleach) to a commercial percarbonate and collected the oxygen (see my comments at https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=63...).

Apparently, because of the above equilibrium or, a serious degradation of the product, or other added 'activators', one actually collects much less O2 than expected!

Here are my relevant comments from yet another prior thread discussing so called added 'activators':
Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
First, unlike Sodium perborate, Sodium percarbonate is chemically just an addition compound of Na2CO3 and Hydrogen peroxide.

Also, while Sodium carbonate and Sodium percarbonate (basically Na2CO3 and 2Na2CO3.3H2O2) are often listed as the main ingredients in typical chlorine free bleach, an additive, TAED, which acts as a key activator (see, for example, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OxiClean ) is not even listed on the label. TetraAcetylEthyleneDiamine is apparently commonly employed as a bleach activator in many laundry products (see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraacetylethylenediamine ). TAED reacts with H2O2 in alkaline conditions (referred to as perhydrolysis) creating, in part, Peracetic Acid. The latter PAA is actually preferred over sluggish H2O2 for bleaching. In other words, it is not the H2O2 as the active bleaching agent, but PAA created in situ. So, other than possibly misleading implying that eco friendly hydrogen peroxide is the active agent, it is, in reality, PAA, a probematic compound with associated health concerns (see Marquand, E. C.; et al. , 2007. "Asthma Caused by Peracetic Acid-Hydrogen Peroxide Mixture". J. Occup. Health. 49 (2): 155–158.). Here is a MSDS on an actual PAA mix ( 76-61% water, PAA 20-35%, 3% Acetic acid and 1% H2O2): https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&... which is far from friendly but does eventually totally decompose into harmless O2, CO2, H2O,...

As such anyone using a commercial percarbonate product should at least be aware of safety issues and that one is likely employing a Peracetic acid mix.

Legally, I find it is interesting that one can list main ingredients and not actualy cite active agents. The warning labels on the product are certainly ample and displayed in different languages, and should not be dismissed under the misconception that this is just a harmless washing soda and H2O2 mix (that is, absent TAED, which it may approach under totally dry condtions) but apparently, in the presence of TAED, moisture (like in ones lungs), water vapor or in water solutions, it may no longer be quite so friendly.

[Edited on 23-4-2017 by AJKOER]


Link: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/post.php?action=reply...

One explanation, in my opinion, as to why commercial percarbonate products are transmuted into a PAA mix, is that apparently plain old H2O2 is not as powerful in bleaching as PAA. In a fierce rivalry with generally cheaper chlorine based bleaches, being significantly weaker could be perceived as a competitive disadvantage.

With regard to my warning label discussion on oxygen based bleaches, which appears to me to be scarier than on hypochlorite products, I would further comment that chlorine based bleaches probably scares people, and it is therefore likely to be more responsibly handled than the perhaps misunderstood (as to actual active agent) oxygen bleach counterpart.

[Edited on 4-6-2017 by AJKOER]

j_sum1 - 4-6-2017 at 15:12

Interesting, AJKOER.
My source of sodium percarbonate is as a bottle cleaner / disinfectant used by home brewers. I was not really considering that there would be any additives that could create peracetic acid in a food-related application. But then, I shouldn't be surprised.

I'll add that H2O2 is one of those simple compounds that is full of surprises. I am not going to claim to have thorough knowledge of its properties. I do wish there was an easy, practical way for the amateur chemist to synthesise it.



Let's see if Zedlum returns to give more details on the quality / source of his reagents and exactly what it is he is trying to accomplish.

AJKOER - 4-6-2017 at 15:25

I would like to also mention that the reaction between MgSO4 (aq) and Na2CO3 (aq) is one of my recommended reaction that is quite surprising!

It forms a massive water loving basic magnesium carbonate hydrate that may consume all the water in your vessel!

Here is a reference (http://magnesium.atomistry.com/magnesium_basic_carbonates.ht... ), to quote:

"Magnesia alba is commercially prepared as a white powder by precipitating magnesium sulphate or chloride with sodium carbonate. Magnesia alba levis results from precipitation in the cold, and magnesia alba ponderosa from precipitation in the heat. Both the light, bulky form and the heavier variety are used as laxatives in medicine, in dentistry, and for toilet purposes. They ignite respectively to the light and heavy oxides of magnesium. The light carbonate, " when examined under the microscope, is found to consist of amorphous particles with numerous slender prisms intermixed."
..........
Magnesia alba is only slightly soluble in water (the solution has an alkaline reaction), but is soluble in acids and in solutions of ammonium salts.
Its composition is usually said to approximate to that of hydromagnesite, Mg(OH)2.3MgCO3.3H2O, but analyses of its composition were never very consistent, and it seems quite certain that its composition is very variable. "

In agreement with the last variable composition comment, the product is sold by one vendor (https://www.fishersci.com/shop/products/magnesium-carbonate-... ) with the formula, MgCO3·Mg(OH)2·nH2O, which agrees with what I have observed. See also https://books.google.com/books?id=YtE5AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA375&... which describes various paths to the alba.

[Edit] I should mention that the other product on mixing MgS04 + Na2CO3 is soluble Na2SO4, which is not people friendly (historically used as a laxative), which could be trapped in the water of solution of the MgCO3·Mg(OH)2·nH2O. Using MgCl2 in place of Epsom salt would introduce a NaCl presence. One could also try mixing NaHCO3 in excess with MgSO4 and freeze out the Sodium sulfate as a hydrate. The resulting unstable Mg(HCO3)2 solution (decomposes on standing to insoluble Mg(OH)2 or MgCO3, depending on conditions, with a release of CO2) should promptly be employed in place of MgSO4 possibly creating in a sealed vessel with heating (see last link above discussing alternative paths) the magnesium alba and NaHCO3 (but not verified, as I suspect, the amphoteric bicarbonate could further act on the alba depending on conditions).

[Edited on 5-6-2017 by AJKOER]

Zedlum - 4-6-2017 at 15:27

Hi guys, thanks for the replies.

My wife has a condition that benefits from bathing in a solution containing H2O2 . In Australia getting the food grade H2O2 in the quantity needed is quite expensive so we have been using Sodium Percarbonate as a substitute. This has been working quite well, it would seem that we have found a supplier of quite a pure product as per AJKOER's comments. The main goal is that the baths contain sufficient H2O2.

Secondarily it has been suggested that Epsom Salts also has a beneficial effect, magnesium is supposed to be a good antimicrobial. We have mixed the two and it seems to precipitate something, the water is a milky colour. So am I correct in thinking that adding the Epsom Salts is simply a waste of Epsom Salts as the magnesium ends up in a form that cannot be adsorbed?

Thanks again.

[Edited on 4-6-2017 by Zedlum]

[Edited on 5-6-2017 by Zedlum]

Zedlum - 4-6-2017 at 15:31

This is what we have been using...

The brand is Blend, they are Melbourne based.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Oxygen-Bleach-5kg-Pure-Sodium-Per...

Zedlum - 4-6-2017 at 15:45

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
I do wish there was an easy, practical way for the amateur chemist to synthesise it.


I did look to do that but what I found seemed well beyond my reach.

If you are interested, and have an open mind, this is an eBook about the use of H2O2 and its role in your immune system.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3HYddJ4QlwsM3M2Q1hVNkRVU1...

So far we have found taking it orally as per "The One Minute Cure" schedule and bathing in it are very effective. My wife's condition is improving faster than it was under conventional treatment and we have suffered no other disease since starting. That alone is a amazing as we have two kids at primary school (aka the local disease exchange program) and by this time in winter (Australia) we are normally under siege.

It really does appear to greatly fortify the immune system and let it do the job it was designed to. It is at least worth keeping in the back of your mind, believe me you become very open minded and keen to try most things when you hit the limits of conventional treatment, god forbid that you ever get there.

Sorry to babble... hopefully it is of some interest.

AJKOER - 4-6-2017 at 16:04

See my comments above on Magnesium alba which is roughly MgCO3·Mg(OH)2·nH2O and in particular, the very last reference discussing various historical paths for preparation.

Mixing aqueous MgSO4 + 2Na2CO3.3H2O2 could also produce some MgCO4.

Not much literature on this compound but it may form a salt MgCO4.7H2O which was referenced in paper on a virus as a component piece of a washing solution (see "P1 peptidase of Pea seed-borne mosaic virus contains noncanonical C2H2 zinc finger and may act in a truncated form", by Jana Rohozková, Marek Šebela and Milan Navrátil, link: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&...).

I expect it to be disinfecting.

[Edited on 5-6-2017 by AJKOER]

j_sum1 - 4-6-2017 at 16:08

Interesting problem.
I have not heard of such a use of H2O2 before. I am going to guess a skin condition and that a dilute oxidiser has an antimicrobial / antifungal effect.

Epsom salts have a long history of use as a muscle relaxant. I really don't know how much is placebo and how much is real but people have been bathing in the stuff for eons. Magnesium is an essential mineral and vital in a large number of biological roles. I don't know how much is absorbed through the skin and whether its effect is as great as the claims. There is also a large number of products where magnesium is ingested. Be careful as you read about it. There is a bit of quackery out there in relation to magnesium products with the usual overinflation of health benefits. It really pays to look at the dose, the route, find out what you can about the targeted body systems and then look at the specific health claims.

In your specific case you are producing a solid precipitate in the bath. This is not going to get through the skin and even if it did it is not likely to participate in body systems in a solid state. So, yes, combining the two is wasting the epsom salts. But whether the Epsom salts are actually doing anything helpful anyway is something that you will have to research.

You should also be aware that the percarbonate bath is going to be quite alkaline. Contrary to a lot of current claims, alkaline diet, water, environment etc are not the great panacea of all ills. Skin is naturally slightly acidic. Of course it can cope with a range of conditions. But it may be that exposure to a high pH bath exacerbates irritation. Proceed with caution on the percarbonate.

My instinct would be to stay clean, have and relaxing bath that may or may not include epsom salts: Rinse off thoroughly with fresh water if you are using epsom salts. And then as a separate process, apply a solution of dilute peroxide topically. I would not leave it on but rinse it off after a certain length of time. You could experiment with dilution and duration to achieve the desired effect.

j_sum1 - 4-6-2017 at 16:28

Regarding your link on food grade peroxide, there are a few things to be aware of.

1. Peroxide is actually quite a powerful oxidant. Not quite bleach but not far from it.
2. Oxidisers undertake the same chemical reactions when dilute as they do when concentrated. The rate is slower however. But you would want to know for sure that you actually want that reaction to happen.
3. You need to answer this question -- why exactly do you think your digestive system requires additional oxidation. (It is more common for people to claim that the body needs antioxidants rather than oxidants and this is certainly close to the truth.) If you are doing nothing else you are negating the effect of any vitamin C that is in your diet by ingesting H2O2.
4. I have not read the whole book (and am unlikely to do so). But typical of these kinds of books is a lack of procedural control in experimentation. Anything pharmaceutical that goes through a regulated route is subjected to a very systematic array of testing to determine the exact effect, the magnitude of the effect, side reactions, contraindications, optimum route, dosage and, where possible, establishing the biological mechanism mechanism that causes it to be effective. Large sample sizes are used, double blind tests and sophisticated statistical methods are employed to determine all of these things to a high degree of certainty. So-called alternative remedies do not go through this process. Results are largely anecdotal and often reflect a poor understanding of both the treatment and the body systems. Even in cases where an alternative treatment appears effective there are large numbers of unknowns. And it is common to extrapolate from one situation to another. A treatment that works topically will not necessarily have any effect taken internally. A treatment that cures indigestion will not necessarily cure cancer and may have a negative effect on kidney function. Don't believe everything you read.


Edit
And this has nothing to do with whether I have an open mind or not.
The truth is not going to be affected one way or the other by whether I have an open mind.

[Edited on 5-6-2017 by j_sum1]

Zedlum - 4-6-2017 at 18:21

No this is far more serious than a skin condition but I hesitate to give it its common name because that is a misnomer and invites all sorts of prejudgement, trust me it is not easily explained or understood especially by our medical authorities. You have to live with this to get it, but once you get it you see many other common conditions in a very different light. You are somewhat flying blind trying to deal with the condition but thanks to the internet you find enough common experience that you can make head way. Best way to think about it is a chronic infection by multiple slow acting micro-organisms (sometimes called stealth diseases) that produce a wide range of symptoms. They can be minor through to crippling, they can eventually take your life and they can certainly produce depression (via toxins created when they die). My wife was originally diagnosed with MS, which is just a symptom when it comes down to it, later we discovered the cause. We have met many people that have had similar experiences, some have been luckier than us one woman (MS diagnoses) went to Germany for treatment, they take it more seriously over there. She was in a wheel chair when she left and three months later she came back in high heels... because she could. Her neurologist only then admitted he may have got things wrong.

Your body creates hydrogen peroxide and uses it within the immune system along with the oxygen that it eventually breaks down to. Your body creates H2O2 in response to vitamin c which is a part of why it works. Most microbes that are not so good for us are anaerobic, the body destroys them through oxidisation, simply flooding your system with oxygen is often more effective than the best antibiotics as oxygen gets to all parts of the body where as antibiotics actually have quite limited reach. Anyway read the book, medicine has quite a history with H2O2 already, lots of material is cited, much of this is known and has been for a long time.

As to the lack of procedural control etc. Yes, very true BUT just imagine for a second that it is as effective as claimed. Who in the regulated pharmaceutical indsutry would fund research into something that would damage their profit base. You need to get to the point where the penny drops... it is all for profit and NOTHING that is cheap and effective will ever be adopted because it threatens billions in profit. That is the bottom line, the industry would go broke if it actually kept you healthy. The regulated 'for profit' model is a double edge sword that isn't always about protecting you, take a look at the damage done by legal drugs.

As for its effect I don't really mind if you don't take my word for it, in the end it will be your loss. We have proven to ourselves that this is as effective as the antibiotic strategies proffered by the our traditional docs AND we have reason to believe that it is far more complete in its reach. As I mentioned antibiotics are surprisingly limited in the parts of the body that they can effectively reach.

Anyway, I didn't come here to convince you of anything and I thank you very much for the help with the basic chemistry. It didn't look right to me so we'd not used the combination and I see no reason to try.

Thanks guys you have been helpful.


[Edited on 5-6-2017 by Zedlum]