Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Urea sources

gnitseretni - 12-1-2007 at 10:46

I have some KNO3 on the way and as soon as i get it i'm going to try and make some HNO3. But to free the distallate from nitrogen oxide, how much urea should one add to say 10ml HNO3 and where can one get urea? Will 46-00-0 fertilizer do, and if so, does it need to be purified somehow or can I add it to the HNO3 right out of the bag?

roamingnome - 12-1-2007 at 11:10

now dont laugh....

but ive been intersted in collecting ones own....
and cats maybye too...

other then that ...make some tie dye items and if you make it, it will come....

kaviaari - 12-1-2007 at 11:17

I have actually made urea from urine (of my own). It includes working with cons. HNO3 so in this case it wouldn't be a perfect way. I would simply boil the solution to get nitrous oxides out of it.

gnitseretni - 12-1-2007 at 12:20

Quote:
Originally posted by kaviaari
I have actually made urea from urine (of my own). It includes working with cons. HNO3 so in this case it wouldn't be a perfect way. I would simply boil the solution to get nitrous oxides out of it.


Boiling it? Won't I end up with an even lower concentration (and less acid) that way due to decomposition?

From wikipedia:
"The dissolved NOx are readily removed using reduced pressure at room temperature (10-30 min at 200 mmHg or 27 kPa). "

Does that apply to AFTER distillation as well as during? I can't reduce the pressure during because of my setup, but maybe I could place the distillate in a flask and reduce the pressure inside that flask using one of those hand operated vacuum pumps. Let is sit for half an hour at room temperature and that should leave me with 100% (?) nitric acid free of nitrogen dioxide?

It's for making RDX. I've read that when making RDX the HNO3 needs to be free of nitrogen dioxide to avoid unwanted reactions. Right?

gnitseretni - 12-1-2007 at 18:25

Has anyone here ever tried making HNO3 Brainfever's way and then used that HNO3 (without any further purification) to make RDX? His method is shown here.. http://www.geocities.com/brainfevert/hno3.html

[Edited on 13-1-2007 by gnitseretni]

Sauron - 12-1-2007 at 19:36

The use of a small amount of urea to remove NOx from RFNA and obtain WFNA is the correct way.

See Vogel 3rd Ed., section on Inorganic Reagents - Liquid.

The amount of urea required to treat 10 ml RFNA would be in milligrams.

You can always make urea the way Wohler did when he started this entire mess (organic chem) by rearranging the inorganic salt ammonium cyanate.

NOTW cyanate not cyanide!!

Every organiker knows this or ought to.

Prior to this experiment, it was axiomatic that "organic" compounds could only be formed by living organisms (hence the name) and that organic compounds could not be prepared from inorganic reagents. That was regarded as immutable fact as surely as that lead could not be transmuted into gold.

Until Wohler made urea, indisputably organic, from ammonium cyanate, indisputably in organic, and tore that "law" to shreds.

The world changed forever. Not even two centuries ago.
[Edited on 13-1-2007 by Sauron]

[Edited on 13-1-2007 by Sauron]

Aqua_Fortis_100% - 12-1-2007 at 20:00

Quote:
originally posted by gnitseretni :
Has anyone here ever tried making HNO3 Brainfever's way and then used that HNO3 (without any further purification) to make RDX? His method is shown here.. http://www.geocities.com/brainfevert/hno3.html

[Edited on 13-1-2007 by gnitseretni]


from this site: "I made a support from Al-foil. (not shown on vid)" why he use this ? isn't corroded by HNO3/NOx/nitrate/H2SO4 mix???
thanks.

about the urea, i bought mine very cheap and very relativelly "pure" and "clear" from ANY gardening local center ... (about -in US$- US$ 0,75 1Kg ) :D

[Editado em 13-1-2007 por Aqua_Fortis_100%]

[Editado em 13-1-2007 por Aqua_Fortis_100%]

gnitseretni - 12-1-2007 at 20:25

Thanks Sauron. BTW, after adding the urea, do I just let it sit for a while or do I have to boil it or stir it or cool it or anything like that?

Also, in one of my previous posts, I asked if I could (after distillation is done) remove the NOx from the collected HNO3 in the receiving flask by reducing the pressure for half an hour or so. Can you or someone else confirm if this will work or not? If this works just as well as the urea, than I prefer to do it this way.

gnitseretni - 12-1-2007 at 20:29

Quote:
Originally posted by Aqua_Fortis_100%

about the urea, i bought mine very cheap and very relativelly "pure" and "clear" from ANY gardening local center ... (about -in US$- US$ 0,75 1Kg ) :D


What's the name on the bag or container, maybe I can get it here as well :-)

Sauron - 12-1-2007 at 20:34

I'd expect the rxn with urea to be rapid. Try it. Follow the course of the rxn by the obvious color change. The red-brown vapors will disappear and the liquid will turn water white.

Follw the directions in Vogel.

I do not believe that reduced pressure will do you the slightest bit of good. As to boiling 100% HNO3, let me know when you will do this so I can be sure I am nowhere around. The stuff is unstable.

Aqua_Fortis_100% - 12-1-2007 at 20:49

Quote:
originally posted by gnitseretni :
What's the name on the bag or container, maybe I can get it here as well :-)


it's funny because usually the most of the bags has NO any name or specification, but quite clear.. but some others types are of the same thing you has ( 46-00-0 fertilizer) and some brands are "jimmy® urea", "vila verde® urea" etc.. (in reallity is called here URÉIA )..
about low pressure apparatus for HNO3 100% ,(again) i dont have any lab equipment..so i thinking which for homemade chemistry some aspirators or air bubbler can help a bit ..the problems can be will the corrosion,(maybe) overheating, etc..but i'm not really sure about this.. what you think?

gnitseretni - 13-1-2007 at 10:31

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron

I'd expect the rxn with urea to be rapid.


I read at wikipedia that they add urea solutions(something called adblue) to diesel trucks exhaust systems in Europe to remove the nitrogen oxides. These gasses leave the exhaust fast so I guess it has to be pretty rapid indeed.

12AX7 - 13-1-2007 at 17:32

Quote:
Originally posted by Aqua_Fortis_100%
from this site: "I made a support from Al-foil. (not shown on vid)" why he use this ? isn't corroded by HNO3/NOx/nitrate/H2SO4 mix???
thanks.


Nope, as long as you keep it dry it's good. I put over 50 hours on a strip of 1/8" aluminum used for this purpose. It got a bit pitted is all. When moisture gets in, the mixture starts frothing up.

Tim

Lambda - 13-1-2007 at 18:11

@gnitseretni,

At any well equipted Agricultural center, you can buy 25 KG sacks of Urea for about 15 to 20 Euro, and 25 Liter HNO3 (~60%) vats for about 20 Euro. But then again, I live in Holland where things are also becoming increasingly more difficult.

Regards,

Lambda.

gnitseretni - 13-1-2007 at 21:02

Quote:
Originally posted by Lambda
@gnitseretni,

At any well equipted Agricultural center, you can buy 25 KG sacks of Urea for about 15 to 20 Euro, and 25 Liter HNO3 (~60%) vats for about 20 Euro. But then again, I live in Holland where things are also becoming increasingly more difficult.

Regards,

Lambda.


There are several fertilizer stores in my area.. I read urea has the highest amount of nitrogen of them all, so if it's really that good of a fertilizer, surely I must be able to get some. I'll find out once I finally made some HNO3. BTW, ik ben ook nederlands, but live in the US :-)

Lambda - 13-1-2007 at 22:05

Dat klopt (46,6 % Stikstof), en zelfs hoger dan die van Ammonium Nitraat (34.5% Stikstof). Ik heb het toendertijd van een Land en Tuinbouwcentrum gekocht, maar voor particulieren liggen de zaken anders. In America kan het nogal problematisch zijn door zijn toepassing voor het maken van illegale Drugs en Explosieven, namelijk Ureum Nitraat en Nitroureum. Mischien kun je een beetje van een bevriende Boer krijgen, maar probeer argwaan te vermijden, en zeker in deze tijd van opgeklopte paranoia.

In ieder geval wens ik je veel succes toe.
Quote:
Originally posted by kaviaari
I have actually made urea from urine (of my own).....

This method was described in the "Black Books". Caution !!, these Books are amoungst the most dangerouse Books I know of, and were written for people that were expendable. Many procedures described in these Books are downright suicidal. These Books should only be kept on the Bookshelf as a form of curiosity, amusement, inventivity, and source of complete and utter Madness.

On a high Protein diet, you should be able to secure at least 3% to 4% Urea out of a collective amount of Urine.

You only need a very small amount of Urea for a relativily large bulk of HNO3. Many PETN Patents describe this, COPAE (See SM Library), Brauer (See SM Library), Vogel, Urbansky, Fedoroff, etc.

Regards,

Lambda.

[Edited on 14-1-2007 by Lambda]

gnitseretni - 14-1-2007 at 07:41

Quote:
Originally posted by Lambda
Mischien kun je een beetje van een bevriende Boer krijgen, maar probeer argwaan te vermijden, en zeker in deze tijd van opgeklopte paranoia.[Edited on 14-1-2007 by Lambda]


Hehe.. mijn ouwe heer heeft hier een boerderij dus ik zou zo een ton van dat spul kunnen ophalen :-) (als ze het hebben of course ;) Hij heeft ook een paar gallons 100% propylene glycol waar ik PGDN mee zou kunnen maken. En hij heeft ook spul daar zit copper sulfate in. Maar ik ben nog nieuw in explosives maken en het engiste wat ik tot nu toe nog gemaakt hebt is AP en MEKP en ik wil graag uitbreiden :D

Sauron - 14-1-2007 at 08:35

I always figured the Black Books and Anarchist's Cookbook etc were put out by people who wanted to see hapless wannabes get hurt.

gnitseretni - 14-1-2007 at 13:17

can someone tell me if it's a problem having big lumps in your KNO3/H2SO4 mix?

gnitseretni - 15-1-2007 at 13:06

well I got 38ml of pretty clear HNO3 despite the fact that I almost used a quarter less KNO3 than I originally planned to.

Aqua_Fortis_100% - 26-1-2007 at 03:42

Quote:
Mensagem original enviada por 12AX7
Quote:
Originally posted by Aqua_Fortis_100%
from this site: "I made a support from Al-foil. (not shown on vid)" why he use this ? isn't corroded by HNO3/NOx/nitrate/H2SO4 mix???
thanks.


Nope, as long as you keep it dry it's good. I put over 50 hours on a strip of 1/8" aluminum used for this purpose. It got a bit pitted is all. When moisture gets in, the mixture starts frothing up.

Tim



Thanks 12AX7 ! about the reactivity, still today nitric acid is a very mysterious substance to me :mad: ! i made many time ago, only ONE time , weak nitric acid using enormous effort because of my "glassware"(beer and coke glass bottle :P) and today i think about this methods concerning nitrates + H2SO4 as great potential to hurt and disaster because which i no remember some more corrosive mixtures to skin, eyes..(specially hot H2SO4-nitrate mix), moreover the nasty effects of the NO2 gases...

but about this method(Brainfever ) i stiil doubtful about what has some water in mixture(2% of the 98% H2SO4), so this water is insignificant for corrosion effects on aluminium ????
what the concentration of the HNO3 you have used for this experiment (50 hours with HNO3) ?? aprox. 100% ?
and a final question: what the plastic he used for condensing HNO3 drops (low and high conc.) ??? this also looks some strange (an organic thing having NO reaction with the HNO3.. i remeber my experience which i tried use epoxy resin o seal glass and result in very FAST corrosion)!!

thanks again

[Editado em 26-1-2007 por Aqua_Fortis_100%]

12AX7 - 26-1-2007 at 08:22

I was using HDPE film at rather low temperature (the same a-solar still I described in the ethanol thread, but using a glass jar and the reciever set on a pedestal rather than hanging).

The level of H2O was probably quite low as it would catalyze reaction with Al (thus drying it out further), and H2SO4 is rather greedy for H2O. H2SO4 was drain cleaner (red bottle brand).

Tim

guy - 21-3-2007 at 19:23

Here I can't find any fertillizers that just contain urea. But I have a bag of fertillizer that has polymer coated with urea, along with ammonium sulfate, phosphate, potassium chloride, ferrous sulfate.

I just need to know if urea is alcohol soluble because all the other stuff ain't. The fertillizer has 7% urea by weight.

bereal511 - 21-3-2007 at 19:53

Urea is soluble in alcohols, at least as far as I know ethanol and methanol.

not_important - 21-3-2007 at 20:35

Crack the prills open, Just crush them some, you don't need to take them to a powder. Extract with near boiling alcohol, filter, cool, and filter to collect the urea. Use the filterate to extract more of the fertilizer.

One gram of urea dissolves in
1 ml H2O
10 ml 95% ethanol
1 ml 95% ethanol boiling
20 ml absolute EtOH
6 ml MeOH

When hot urea slowly reacts with water and alcohols, so try to do the hot stage as quickly as possible. The roughly 10:1 solubility swing gives pretty good recovery.

Levi - 21-3-2007 at 20:41

I guess this is OT, but what are the products of the reaction between urea and ethanol? Is there a simple way to purify the urea contaminated with these products?

guy - 21-3-2007 at 21:04

Quote:
Originally posted by not_important
Crack the prills open, Just crush them some, you don't need to take them to a powder. Extract with near boiling alcohol, filter, cool, and filter to collect the urea. Use the filterate to extract more of the fertilizer.

One gram of urea dissolves in
1 ml H2O
10 ml 95% ethanol
1 ml 95% ethanol boiling
20 ml absolute EtOH
6 ml MeOH

When hot urea slowly reacts with water and alcohols, so try to do the hot stage as quickly as possible. The roughly 10:1 solubility swing gives pretty good recovery.


Thanks. I have denatured alcohol. Is that near 100% ethanol?

Levi - 21-3-2007 at 21:07

Quote:
From Wikipedia
Methylated spirit

Methylated spirit (or Meths, also denatured alcohol or surgical spirit) is ethanol which has been rendered toxic or otherwise undrinkable, and in some cases dyed. It is used for purposes such as fuel for spirit burners and camping stoves, and as a solvent. Traditionally, the main additive was 10% methanol, which gave rise to its name, but this is not always the case now. There are diverse industrial uses for ethanol, and therefore literally hundreds of recipes for denaturing ethanol. Typical additives are methanol, isopropanol, methyl ethyl ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, denatonium, and even (uncommonly) aviation gasoline.


[Edited on 22-3-2007 by Levi]

16MillionEyes - 23-3-2007 at 17:29

So it appears if anyone tries to get urea out of common urine will only get a small yield. Can anyone explain to me why this is a dangerous process? What do you have to do exacly?