Sciencemadness Discussion Board

sodium metal extraction - Nurdrage did it!

jamit - 30-4-2017 at 03:59

Just in case you missed it, Nurdrage was able to extract the separation for magnesium/sodium amalgam in his most recent video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCrFFVVcPUI


I wish nurdrage would re-join this forum! He once was a part of us, but because of stupid idiots on this forum, he went rogue and decided to leave us. Just look at the forum on potassium. He was really involved and no one did a better job of explaining the science behind their experiment.

unionised - 30-4-2017 at 07:54

It looks like "cheating" a bit to me to say they don't use electrolysis.
The magnesium was made that way.
However, it's OTC.
(Incidentally, "amalgam" has a specific meaning that confuses the issue here That's why he uses the word "aggregate".)

elementcollector1 - 30-4-2017 at 11:27

...Except, PoK and len1 provided most of the starting research for the potassium thread long before NR ever did?

He even notes in that sodium video that the only truly original thing he did was the separation method (which I will admit is very good). Nighthawkinlight was the one who came up with the sodium/MgO aggregate in the first place.

Not knocking NR, he's pretty good at his job, but just because he's the one with a YouTube video doesn't mean he's the best at it. He also got into a lot of arguments with other forum members, which I wasn't around for. Something about his being a paid professional?

Also, why call people 'stupid idiots' and restart a long-dead argument? If you want NR back on this forum so badly, it should be because he can collaborate with worthwhile scientists, not because his divine presence gilds the threads he touches.

mr.crow - 30-4-2017 at 11:54

I think NurdRage discovered the separation method by accident while distilling dioxane from the Na-MgO aggregate. That would have been quite a eureka moment!

I wonder if sodium dissolves in dioxane or if it forms a complex. Then Na can migrate from small spheres to large ones due to the surface area to volume ratio.

JJay - 30-4-2017 at 12:42

What is NurdRage's handle on this forum?

Edit: Never mind, found it... it looks like he had an argument with a moderator over using bleach to start a fire. I can see why he was upset, but it wasn't that big of a deal. I don't know if that moderator is around any more.

[Edited on 30-4-2017 by JJay]

BromicAcid - 30-4-2017 at 15:58

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
Nighthawkinlight was the one who came up with the sodium/MgO aggregate in the first place.


Of course everything has been done before, but like others have said, he does a good job of putting the information in a neat package.

That being said I wonder how many people are satisfied just watching the video's and how many actually go out and replicate them.

JJay - 30-4-2017 at 16:28

If I didn't already have some sodium, I'd be distilling a mixture of antifreeze and sulfuric acid as we speak.

j_sum1 - 30-4-2017 at 20:22

This thread makes me realise how many good people have dropped off the radar over the years.
The little spat alluded to earlier was before my time and involved players that we don't see at all now. But there were some great guys there: hkparker, nurdrage, secret squirrel, and more.
I wish I had been around in the days of bfesser, vulture, organicum.
Missing arkoma (hopefully temporarily), aga (self-imposed craziness), zombie, blogfast (love to know the whole story there), deltaH (who may be back one day), chemplayer. Haven't seen diddi or Bert for a while. There are others...

I guess its up to us to keep the quality up. I wish I had more actual chemistry to report.

JJay - 30-4-2017 at 21:02

Bert has been around. I bet aga has some great stuff going on (aside from burned toast and whatnot, which I guess is actual amateur chemistry).

But yeah, there definitely have been some great people through here, and many have dropped off the radar. I hope chemplayer comes back.

We still have some of the great longtime members like S.C. Wack, Metacelsus, and Magpie (and not to mention Bert, Polverone, Nicoderm, and woelen).

[Edited on 1-5-2017 by JJay]

Jstuyfzand - 1-5-2017 at 01:53

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
Bert has been around. I bet aga has some great stuff going on (aside from burned toast and whatnot, which I guess is actual amateur chemistry).


This burnt toast has potential! :D

Things like aga's nitric acid competition were truly amazing, they sparked creativity among everyone, rotating arcs, peat electrolysis, it was an amazing read.
We should set up something like that again, although the topic is open for dicussion.

chemplayer... - 5-5-2017 at 01:29

Back! But no more videos as yet. For that you will have to wait.

j_sum1 - 5-5-2017 at 04:10

Quote: Originally posted by chemplayer...  
Back! But no more videos as yet. For that you will have to wait.

Oh! That's a tease.

symboom - 5-5-2017 at 05:50

The next one can potassium hydroxide be substituted to form this such as magnesium and potassium hydroxide to form potassium metal

The other methods codys lab of sodium with potassium chloride which not sure if lithium could be substituted instead of sodium it has a higher boiling point

Elemental Phosphorus - 5-5-2017 at 06:04

I am not sure if the magnesium metal reduction of potassium hydroxide will work with reasonable yields, since potassium boils at a much lower temperature, so it might boil out and burn. If not, then it will oxidise much faster in the aggregate grinding step, leading to a lower yield. It should still be possible though.

clearly_not_atara - 5-5-2017 at 12:21

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
It looks like "cheating" a bit to me to say they don't use electrolysis.
The magnesium was made that way.
However, it's OTC.
(Incidentally, "amalgam" has a specific meaning that confuses the issue here That's why he uses the word "aggregate".)

Magnesium is often made by silicothermic reduction and the silicon itself made by carbothermal reduction
Quote:
The next one can potassium hydroxide be substituted to form this such as magnesium and potassium hydroxide to form potassium metal

someone doesn't read sticky threads
Quote:
I am not sure if the magnesium metal reduction of potassium hydroxide will work with reasonable yields

two people in fact
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=14...

[Edited on 5-5-2017 by clearly_not_atara]

symboom - 5-5-2017 at 14:25

I am aware or that thread but that is a method involving reduction of potassium hydroxide to potassium metal with magnesium in a Solvent and catalysis the procedure I am referring to is burning magnesium with potassium hydroxide at high temperatures

[Edited on 5-5-2017 by symboom]

symboom - 30-6-2017 at 04:20

June 2 nurdrage on twitter
Quote
Interesting, potassium magnesium aggregate is pyrophoric! Surprised the heck out of me when it exploded in my hands. (Don't worry, i'm safe)

On trying to make potassium metal with magnesium
So has anyone tried a work around or have a method to eliminate this potassium was produced

JJay - 30-6-2017 at 06:48

I think you could distill it in quartz labware from a melt of potassium chloride and sodium. This would require high temperatures and inert gas. If it's not too dangerous, you might be able to do it with a sealed system by allowing the sodium to react with oxygen and water in your setup prior to distillation, but I imagine that could cause bumping, which is certainly not desired at such high temperatures.

Funkerman23 - 30-6-2017 at 23:02

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
This thread makes me realise how many good people have dropped off the radar over the years.
The little spat alluded to earlier was before my time and involved players that we don't see at all now. But there were some great guys there: hkparker, nurdrage, secret squirrel, and more.
I wish I had been around in the days of bfesser, vulture, organicum.
Missing arkoma (hopefully temporarily), aga (self-imposed craziness), zombie, blogfast (love to know the whole story there), deltaH (who may be back one day), chemplayer. Haven't seen diddi or Bert for a while. There are others...

I guess its up to us to keep the quality up. I wish I had more actual chemistry to report.
I never did find out what happened to arkoma, but I know he had a hand in making Deschem accepted here after a thread of his took off. I know that Peach went missing and I haven't a clue where, but without the videos that where once there, there are holes in it.

Elemental Phosphorus - 1-7-2017 at 12:15

What I meant in my earlier post was that I did not believe that a hot pyrotechnic reduction of potassium hydroxide using magnesium metal would work in a good yield. The sticky thread is definitely a workable route but a route that is not as fickle and cheaper is always welcome.

oberkarteufel - 15-6-2019 at 21:49

After my failures with potassium via menthol-catalysed method I decided I'll try something else. I realised that I have all chemicals required to create Na/MgO aggregate (currently no place for safe heating/distillation to extract Na with dioxane).

WOW. KIDS, THIS SHOULD REALLY BE DONE OUTSIDE. Preferably at least 2m from any walls that you don't want to stain and any flammable materials, like dry grass. Just in case something goes unpredictably.
I scaled it down to half of NurdRages experiment (i.e. 20g NaOH + 15g Mg) and yet the flames were very impressive. In the first attempt, I underestimated it and used a too light brick as a lid, so it tipped over and quite a fireball of orange flames emerged, followed by a cloud of white smoke. Most of the sodium probably vaporized/burned, however when I quenched the leftovers there were still some bits of sodium in it apparently, as some small orange bursts appeared.
In second attempt the can was partially dug into the sand and the original "lid" was reinforced with a second, heavier brick. This one was certainly better contained, but some sodium flames still managed to escape (can't help it, but I have to cite NurdRage: "Mwahahaha!" ;) ).
I played a bit with the product; nice bursts were produced when pea-sized lumps of Na/MgO were thrown into water. This might be useful for reduction of ketones to alcohols, or the production of alcoholates in the future. I think the long-term storage has no sense, this reagent is probably best when freshly prepared and the preparation is easy (if somewhat hazardous) and quick.

draculic acid69 - 15-6-2019 at 22:41

You reckon the reason k doesn't work with menthol was assorted factors ie: lamp oil Vs baby oil etc etc or it just doesn't work with menthol at all?

oberkarteufel - 16-6-2019 at 00:24

In this topic it's an off-top, but I'll answer.
I'm leaning towards the opininon that menthol doesn't work. The mineral oil/liquid paraffin I'm using contains no adulterants like esters, very little unsaturated compunds, is thermally stable and doesn't boil significantly up to 230°C. There is an issue with low power output of the heating plate - reaction mixture reaches ~210°C after almost 3 hrs of heating. As I usually was a bit time-limited, this lead to only about 2hrs of proper reaction time. However, this should be sufficient to see at least first signs of K forming, which was never observed. Even careful addition of water to cooled mixture didn't prove potassium's presence. And this was done with new fresh batch of KOH, which contained less water than previous one. After I sign a permanent contract I'll ask my supervisor for permission to try it once again, maybe with a t-amyl alcohol, in a lab at work.

Tsjerk - 16-6-2019 at 01:43

Did you try to heat the hell out of the KOH in order to make it anhydrous? Usually KOH contains about 15% water when not stated otherwise. I can imaging this 15% of water screwing up at least the first couple of hours, if not the whole start of the preparation.

Heating KOH until molten should make it as good as anhydrous, maybe one big batch could be made in a sacrificial vessel to last for some time.

oberkarteufel - 16-6-2019 at 10:02

Followed 12thealchemist's suggestion from https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=14... on how to dehydrate it.
Good people, the above-linked thread is a better place to discuss this, maybe let's not contaminate this one with the off-top?
May I kindly ask a moderator to cut the off-top from here and move it to the sticky potassium thread? Thank you in advance.

[Edited on 16-6-2019 by oberkarteufel]