Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Ruthenium dust (and more!) for sale from US. International shipping is possible.

Ruthenium dust (and more!) for sale from US. International shipping is possible.

Melgar - 31-3-2017 at 15:22

So, I had a friend who had some ruthenium that he was no longer interested in, and I asked for it in exchange for helping him with a project. He finally sent it to me, but he put the ingot inside the same bag as the dust, and one of its edges cut the bag open, resulting in the inside of the envelope being coated with ruthenium dust.

At first, I had no idea how to sell this. There's supposed to be an ounce of dust, and ruthenium spot price is only $40 an ounce or so... good luck ever finding it for that price though. This dust is really hard to weigh without getting it all over, too, so I'm probably going to add it to a binder, meaning I can't tell you exactly how much you'll be getting. Additionally, because I have no idea what demand will be like, I came up with a slightly complicated way of pricing it. Bear with me. However, this pricing scheme does make it so that ANYONE who wants some can get some, and without spending much money at all:

I'm going to sell half of this dust, which is about 15 grams or so. To buy it, you tell me how much you want to spend. The minimum is $5 for the US, $10 anywhere else. This covers shipping, and gets you a piece of the ruthenium-impregnated packaging. Anything beyond that gets you a fraction of the loose dust, and goes into a pool. That fraction of the dust that you'll get is determined by dividing your contribution to the pool, by how much everyone put in the pool combined. So if you're in the US, and want to buy $10 worth, $5 will go into the pool. If there's $50 total in the pool, you'll get 1/10 of the dust. Also, you'll get part of the packaging, that you can extract dust from. Test your metal [sic] as a chemist, by seeing how much ruthenium YOU can extract from whatever I send you!

If interest is based on the posts I made here in the past, I'll probably only be dividing it up among 3-4 people. I'll edit this with a running total of how much people have wanted to buy, so you can get an idea of how many people the pool will be divided among. I'll update it probably once a day or so, and close bidding at the end of April, so April 30th, New York time. For now, I'll update it based on what people tell me, but you'll actually have to pony up (give me, via paypal or bitcoin) the money before the deadline in order to get any. This is the only fair way I could think of to do it, because otherwise I can't send any out until everyone sends me their share of the money. You can raise the amount you want to put in, any time. But the amount you get will be based on how much you pay me by the deadline, not how much you say you will.

I also attached a picture I took of sodium ruthenate solution, which I made by dissolving about a quarter pound of NaOH in a bleach solution, then adding the ruthenium ingot. It eventually became very dark red, but looks black unless you place it in front of a light. I don't think there's much actual ruthenium in there, but every time I evaporate any, it reduces back to the metal somehow. Little specks of dust that land in the solution will reduce it back to metal, even. The excess of sodium hydroxide was to prevent ruthenium tetroxide from forming, although I think it did anyway. I put a plastic yogurt lid over the glass jar to keep any evolved gases inside. The yogurt lid looked perfectly fine, but some bits of yogurt on the other side were coated with a layer of metal. Apparently the RuO4 diffused through the plastic and the yogurt reduced it to the metal. What an odd substance.

So far 1 person has agreed to put in money, and $7 is in the pool. Putting in $20 would get you about two thirds of it if you were in the US, and about 60% of it otherwise.

0 people have actually paid me anything, meaning that if everyone who agreed to buy some reneges, you can have it all for $10.01.

Because I have several things that I had to order more than I needed of in order to buy any at all, I'll list those things here, for sale with no additional shipping charge:

Indium, for sale to anywhere, 2g for $1. 10-gram minimum.
Galinstan, liquid metal alloy, must be shipped ground so US lower 48 only. 2g for $1, 20-gram minimum.
TBAB (tetrabutylammonium bromide) Useful because you barely need any to make its reactions work, but can only order it in large amounts. $1 for 5 grams.
Divinylbenzene-crosslinked polystyrene sulfonate ion-exchange resin! Easier to picture the structure than it sounds; also called "strong acid ion-exchange resin". Useful for separating water-soluble anions from cations, or separating amines and positively-charged metal ions from the rest of an aqueous solution. 100g for $5.
Calcium propionate, the calcium salt of propionic acid. A cheap food additive that's hard to purchase more than five pounds of. 100g for $5.
Vanadium pentoxide, which there seems to be renewed interest in, I'll put up for 5g for $1.

Other than the galinstan, everything I'm listing should be mailable internationally, if I'm correct. If not, I'm sure someone will correct me within about five minutes of making this post.

[Edited on 4/1/17 by Melgar]

zed - 31-3-2017 at 16:43

Umm. I'd put a glove on that hand, Melgar.

Ruthenium isn't very expensive, but none-the-less, I'll make yer dick fall off, if'n you get exposed to enough of it, in the wrong form.

Melgar - 31-3-2017 at 17:51

Quote: Originally posted by zed

Umm. I'd put a glove on that hand, Melgar.

Ruthenium isn't very expensive, but none-the-less, I'll make yer dick fall off, if'n you get exposed to enough of it, in the wrong form.

Ruthenium doesn't form the tetraoxide nearly as easily as osmium does, although it is someone hazardous, I'll admit. However, after my friend was... inexperienced and uneducated enough... to mail it like this, and not directly to me but to the company I work for, which meant it was handled by three other people while leaking dust, I figured I couldn't put on a respirator and gloves before handling it (in view of said people) without causing more problems than the ruthenium dust would cause me.

It is very fine though, meaning it's hard to handle it without getting it on everything, so I'm going to forgo weighing it until I send it out. I don't want to promise a certain amount and have it come up light because I touch it without sending up clouds of dust. However, I do promise to package it better than my friend did, when mailing it out. I'm considering coating it in wax. Any reasons I shouldn't?

Cryolite. - 12-4-2017 at 05:18

Any update on this?

elementcollector1 - 12-4-2017 at 10:54

I'd be interested in 12g of this stuff (about $17.25 spot price), but what form would it be in? Packaging, or loose powder? I'm still somewhat confused by how you mean to sell this stuff.

Amos - 12-4-2017 at 11:40

Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1

I'd be interested in 12g of this stuff (about $17.25 spot price), but what form would it be in? Packaging, or loose powder? I'm still somewhat confused by how you mean to sell this stuff.

I'm putting forward $10. If I read this correctly, this means I'm getting an equal share of the actual paper envelope coated in dust as each person that put money forward, as well as a fraction of the dust equal to the fraction of whatever money Melgar makes that I put forward, with free shipping.

violet sin - 12-4-2017 at 12:34

Sooo, if I was to put in 5$ + 17.25$ => 22.25$ I would get envelope + (22.25 - 5)/( (10 - 5) + ( 17.25 - 5) + (22.25 - 5 )) => 17.25/ ( 5 + 12.25 + 17.25) => 17.25/(2 x17.25) or 50% of the powder should no one else bid... 50% of ~15g would be 7.5g straight metal powder.

So then if some one else kicks in the same as I... All get less and pay same. To ensure you get say 7.5g you have to be the one with 50% of the pot. E.C would get lions share of ~ 71% for his 12.25 in pool if only he and Amos bid. But for my 17.25$ would only get me 50%. And someone else's 34.25$ would get them 50%, then making my contribution of 17.25$ go to 25% and E.C and Amos splitting the remaining 25%. Or 7.5g /34$, + 3.75g /17.25$, 2.6g /12.25$, 1.1g / 5$.

Hence I'll pass, give some others a crack at it at a better price. Fractions aren't' my friend here, it would be rude to make then withdraw a contribution simply because more people kicked in and it watered down my value below say some acceptable cost/benefit level. But hey, indium is always fun.

[Edited on 12-4-2017 by violet sin]

[Edited on 12-4-2017 by violet sin]

Amos - 12-4-2017 at 12:45

Yup, I'm actually more interested in getting a package of both calcium propionate and indium pretty cheap. But I figure a little ruthenium might be a fun time.

Cryolite. - 12-4-2017 at 14:05

Honestly, I feel that just selling it off at a fixed price might be more convenient for all involved, for precisely this reason.

Melgar - 12-4-2017 at 16:05

Quote: Originally posted by Amos

Yup, I'm actually more interested in getting a package of both calcium propionate and indium pretty cheap. But I figure a little ruthenium might be a fun time.

That's what I was hoping people would be thinking! I mean, extracting ruthenium from a piece of an envelope would be fun for ME if I had the requisite facilities, which I currently do not.

Quote:

Honestly, I feel that just selling it off at a fixed price might be more convenient for all involved, for precisely this reason.

Unfortunately, this is something I cannot do. So I'm making my problem your problem, so to speak, and in the process giving you a good deal on ruthenium. I do not have the means to extract ruthenium from paper, nor do I have the means to even weigh the ruthenium powder that I do have without it coating everything it touches. If I were to constantly weigh out amounts of ruthenium, it would coat everything it touches, some would be lost, and everyone would lose. I also don't know how best to price this stuff. There seems to be little precedent, and on ebay prices are easy 10-100 times spot price, so that's a bad indicator. My worries are mainly that I price too low and one person scoops it all up; also that I price too high and nobody wants any. Ie, I'm trying to make sure anyone who wants some can get some.

The other factor is that I'm going to be visiting family for the time being due to the Easter holiday, and thus will not be able to send out any ruthenium in the near future anyway, hence the extended timeline.

edit: I guess I didn't realize that you can only edit your posts for about a week here.

So far there are three people who want to buy, and $12 in the ruthenium dust pool.

[Edited on 4/13/17 by Melgar]

Melgar - 12-4-2017 at 21:29

Quote: Originally posted by violet sin

Sooo, if I was to put in 5$ + 17.25$ => 22.25$ I would get envelope + (22.25 - 5)/( (10 - 5) + ( 17.25 - 5) + (22.25 - 5 )) => 17.25/ ( 5 + 12.25 + 17.25) => 17.25/(2 x17.25) or 50% of the powder should no one else bid... 50% of ~15g would be 7.5g straight metal powder.

So then if some one else kicks in the same as I... All get less and pay same. To ensure you get say 7.5g you have to be the one with 50% of the pot. E.C would get lions share of ~ 71% for his 12.25 in pool if only he and Amos bid. But for my 17.25$ would only get me 50%. And someone else's 34.25$ would get them 50%, then making my contribution of 17.25$ go to 25% and E.C and Amos splitting the remaining 25%. Or 7.5g /34$, + 3.75g /17.25$, 2.6g /12.25$, 1.1g / 5$.

Hence I'll pass, give some others a crack at it at a better price. Fractions aren't' my friend here, it would be rude to make then withdraw a contribution simply because more people kicked in and it watered down my value below say some acceptable cost/benefit level. But hey, indium is always fun.

Everybody's contribution would go towards me, as compensation for having to listen to my friend talk about alchemy and "monoatomic gold" for several hours, as sunk cost related to teaching him how to electroplate properly. I don't know how much ruthenium sells for normally, I guess I could put some up for bid or something.

I guess the point is, I don't know how much ruthenium dust I have as a result of an unsealed bag, and the fact that weighing it tends to make a huge mess. So I figured a known fraction of an unknown amount is still an unknown amount, and the 15g I estimated assumes that between what leaked out and what was left, there are about 15 grams.

But I could be way off, who knows? Point is, anyone who buys anything here WILL get enough ruthenium to do a few experiments with. If I make sure that anyone who puts in more than the shipping amount gets at least 500 mg, would that improve things at all?

edit: for anyone not in the know about "monoatomic gold", here are some Frequently Asked Questions!

[Edited on 4/13/17 by Melgar]

Praxichys - 13-4-2017 at 05:48

Wow. That FAQ is the worst thing I've read since Food Babe told us that the air inside jet planes contains nitrogen. I feel like I need a shower after reading that steaming mess.

"nor is detectable by any form of analysis."

I almost spit my coffee!

If you browse around, they're selling little dropper vials of distilled water for over $100/oz. You might want to tell your friend that the "monoatomic ruthenium" they're selling doesn't actually have any ruthenium in it before he decides to eat some.

Geocachmaster - 13-4-2017 at 06:14

Quote:

they're selling little dropper vials of distilled water for over $100/oz

But their one ounce of "250,000 ppm monatomic gold" is only $84! 7.5g of gold would cost something like $300! It's sickening to think that people actually believe this stuff and buy it.

Melgar - 13-4-2017 at 15:14

To be fair, my friend seems to have lost interest in "monoatomic" precious metals, and I'd like to think I helped play some role in shifting his attention elsewhere. At least now, he's more interested in electroplating, which at least is a real, legitimate skill, where you can buy equipment without necessarily being totally ripped off.

Incidentally, there is this "alchemy" experiment that involves boiling down a whole bunch of grape juice, and removing the soluble ash component, somehow, until finally you're left with a gray-colored powder that's attracted to magnets. I guess science isn't supposed to be able to explain what this is, but my first guess was that it was black iron oxide (magnetite) mixed with a lighter colored ash. I was asked if there was an experiment that might be used to prove my theory. I figured that mixing some with hydrochloric acid would give a yellow solution, which we tried. Indeed, the acid gradually turned yellow! Then I was asked to come up with another test that might prove the presence of iron, and I said that there is one very simple test that can rule out virtually any other metal oxide: that being that the oxide is attracted to a magnet! I suppose I could have also done a ferri/ferro cyanide test and produced Prussian blue, but I wasn't sure he was ready to be doing cyanide experiments just yet.

To his credit, he does seem to have come a long way, regarding understanding the scientific method and seems to at least be starting with simpler, safer experiments before moving up to harder more complex ones.

Thinking about this some more, I could probably divide the ruthenium up by mixing with a soluble binder, then rinsing off the binder before shipping it out. Anyone who's committing to buy now will get theirs first (shipping next week), and I'll make sure everyone gets a decent amount too. But I think I'll put aside about half of the amount I was going to sell, and then sell it at a less confusing price and just limit the quantity per person so that one or two people don't take everything. I kind of learned a lesson not to make pricing too strange and confusing, and will try and come up with a much more user-friendly pricing scheme for this stuff.

Cryolite. - 13-4-2017 at 15:46

I would like to raise my contribution to 15 dollars (+5 shipping).

Melgar - 21-4-2017 at 12:00

I finally weighed out the ruthenium powder, and total was 8.5 grams, not including whatever is impregnated in the paper. It seemed like more, to be honest. Two people played along with my convoluted distribution scheme, and I'll be dividing up half of the ruthenium (4.25 grams) between them. I'll throw in some other fun stuff as compensation for my mistake as far as overestimating the amount of powder that was there, then go ahead and make a new thread with pricing information explained much better.

Will update with more information soon.

[Edited on 4/21/17 by Melgar]

tsathoggua1 - 23-4-2017 at 04:42

Regarding ferro/ferricyanide, they don't have the extreme acute toxicity of ionic cyanide and nitriles which can release cyanide in vivo. Potassium ferrocyanide in fact is used as an anti-caking agent in table salt here. Noticed it before using it for a HCl generator and thought better of it, used a different brand.

Cryolite. - 23-4-2017 at 19:09

Well, the amount of ferrocyanide in salt is approximately 50ppm. The amount of HCN producde from using that brand of salt in a hydrogen chloride generator is negligible, especially consdering the general instability of hydrogen cyanide.

And most nitriles do release cyanide in vitro, due to bacteria in the gut breaking most nitriles apart into cyanide and the one carbon shorter alcohol. A notable exception to this is acetonitrile, which is simply hydrolyzed to acetic acid and ammonia.

Melgar - 26-4-2017 at 14:09

Ok, so if you wanted any ruthenium in this round, you'll have to send me the money via Paypal before Friday. U2U me if you don't have my Paypal address. I'll divide it up based on how much everyone put in, then start a new thread that's better organized, less confusing, etc.