Sciencemadness Discussion Board - What is the name of this?

What is the name of this?

halogen - 28-12-2006 at 11:21

What would be the name of this hell explosive, and how would one produce the precursor?
Below is the file

cyclic peroxide.GIF - 10kB

halogen - 28-12-2006 at 11:25

This is the precursor

monomer.GIF - 5kB

vulture - 28-12-2006 at 13:19

Your precursor is so strained and insanely instable it would probably still detonate at 77K.

Sauron - 28-12-2006 at 13:28

The precursor:

It's a urea derivative. Those are ethyleneimine rings and there are 4 nitroso groups so I would say

2,2',3,3'-tetranitrosodiethyleneiminylurea.

Per IUPAC: Bis-(2,3-dinitroso-aziridin-1-yl)-methanone

Those aziridine rings will contribute strain energy, for sure.

My old boss at the University of Mordor has for many years served on the IUPAC Nomenclature Committee and he taught me well. I was his RA sometime between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Hundred Years War. He is also an ACS Councillor. Professor Jack H.Morgoth.

We had a postdoc in the lab who went on to be a medicinal chemist, he was always building small ring aza compounds and many many times they went off in the drying oven or just as he was taking them out.

I think I'll let someone else build that peroxide ring.

[Edited on 28-12-2006 by Sauron]

[Edited on 28-12-2006 by Sauron]

Waffles - 28-12-2006 at 14:08

Quote:

Originally posted by halogen
hell explosive

Good description. Get some DOD funding and try to synthesize it

Sauron - 28-12-2006 at 20:47

Hah. The usual suspects at what we used to call Pickaninny Arsenal, Dover NJ, would read my propossal, nick the idea, make it themselves and write it up in Pyrotechnics, Explosives and Propellants

When I was a beltway bandit (defense consultant in Wash DC) we had a joke going round, I got it from an Aberdeen aeroballistician who used to head BRLs's special projects dept.

A guy in Europe decides to ride a balloon over the Atlantic. He makes it to the east coast, but his GPS is on the fritz and he isn't quite sure of his location. So he reduces altitude. Eventually he can see a tall building, which happens to be the Eisenhauer Ave. headquarters of what was then called DARCOM.

There's a man on the roof. The chap in the hot air ballon's gondola shouts down to him "Where am I?"

The man shouts back "You're in a balloon."

The balloonist nevertheless now knew precisely where he was, because only in Alexandria Virginia at 5700 Eisenhauer Ave would the fellow's information be 100% accurate but toitally and utterly useless.

12AX7 - 28-12-2006 at 22:33

Ah yes, the classic location joke...

Sauron - 28-12-2006 at 22:48

Hell, I left DC in 89. Maybe the street number is 5400 not 5700, but I have more important things to remember than DARCOM's address.

Yes everything in life is location, location, location.

Sauron - 28-12-2006 at 23:38

The final product:

The central ring is 1,2,4,5,7,8-hexaoxacyclononane - same as TATP of course.

The six aziridines are on the 3,6 and 9 carbons, the nitroso groups on the 2 and 3 positions of each of those.

Clearly the synthetic strategy would be to build the ure then treat with H2)2 and acid catalyst a la TATP. The question is then how to build the urea? Start with ethyleneimine and phosgene?

I would not want to be the first (or second) volunteer to try that peroxidation. Or I would want to do it remotely by lab automation from behind a shield or preferably in another building. and I would eschew all financial and legal responsibility for what followed.

Finally, how to nitrosate? Do we start with dinitrosoenthyleneimine? Diamino ethyleneimine and later treat with NaNO2? N2O4?

Over to the energetics gang, I clearly have reached the level of my incompetence. Anyway someone else ought to have some fun besides me.

[Edited on 29-12-2006 by Sauron]

Rosco Bodine - 28-12-2006 at 23:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
Hah. The usual suspects at what we used to call Pickaninny Arsenal, Dover NJ, would read my propossal, nick the idea, make it themselves and write it up in Pyrotechnics, Explosives and Propellants

Oh it gets even worse.... and the more valuable the proposal
to a "favored and/or recently created subcontractor" ,
the more certain is there to be a diverting of both credit and rewards which is consistent with the workings of the
"good old boy network" in Washington , otherwise known as
( Crook Central Station )

You end up having to make a FOIA request to check on the
progress of your own "orphaned" research after it has been "adopted" by others who never seem to have heard of the actual submitter of the original proposal ...which has quickly been de facto public domained without any credit whatsoever to the actual inventor .

But of course it is nothing "personal" ...it is just business
when someone steals a few million dollars from you ,
pats you on the head and tells you it was your patriotic duty
to contribute to their cause . Your reward awaits you in heaven , don't you know

Sauron - 28-12-2006 at 23:57

Science Applications; AAI; Aerojet General, MITRE, ho hum. I pulled the pin at the end of the Reagan years, came here to drink beer and let Thai girls have their way with me.

Sauron - 29-12-2006 at 00:01

BTW you know the definition of a consultant?

He's someone who knows 567 sexual positions but who couldn't get laid in a whorehouse even with a hundred dollar bill wrapped round his woodie.

Rosco Bodine - 29-12-2006 at 00:04

Add Batelle/UT at Oak Ridge to the list , and you have the picture .......same period of time for my own educational experiences .

I suppose you have a knack for oriental language ......

Do the Thai girls appreciate you as a cunning linguist

Sauron - 29-12-2006 at 01:01

Excuse me, I seem to have some hair caught in my throat.

Ah yes Batelle. I'd almost succeeded in forgetting about them. How about the Franklin Institute?

The corporation was a corp.member of ADPA, AUSA, Navy and Marine Corps Leagues. Spent half my life it seemed at the Sheraton Washington. Some of my colleagues became notorious, Remember Jerry Bull, Space Research Corp.? Or the guy who ratted him out, Col.Jack Frost? The supergun project. Bull was the brain behind the HARP project, Canadian in name but BRL funded in competition with the rocket programs, the idea was to put a capsule into orbit from a cannon. The rocket mob won politically and HARP died but Jerry refused to let go. He did very well on other things like the extended range base bleed artilley shells and the extended range mortar ammunition. Got into hot water because he was working with the South Sfricans (no one cared when he was doing same for the Israelis and it was them who put him in with the South Africans.) But when he got in with the Iraqis on the supergun, eventually someone put two bullets in the back of his head in Brussels. Oh well.

quicksilver - 29-12-2006 at 06:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
BTW you know the definition of a consultant?

He's someone who knows 567 sexual positions but who couldn't get laid in a whorehouse even with a hundred dollar bill wrapped round his woodie.

Jesus, that's a classic!

I have known consultants and Consultants but both had that special similarity, that special something that transends sexuality, opulance, and even business savy -that allows them to be left out in the cold in August Miami conditions.

Sauron - 29-12-2006 at 07:22

It's nice to be loved and respected, but far far better to be envied and feared.

Rosco Bodine - 29-12-2006 at 08:30

Perhaps every infant should automatically be assigned
a lawyer , and everything beyond toilet training should
be negotiable .....and only delivered if protected with an ironclad contract

Sauron - 29-12-2006 at 09:38

What was that old joke about why lawyers were preferable test subjects to lab rats for HIV experiemntation?

I think the tag line went something like:

Two reasons:

1. It is possible to become emotionally attached to a lab rat.

2. There are some acts that it is very hard to train lab rats to do.

Or

Good news and bad news.

The good news: a jumbo jet full of lawyers en route to a ABA convention (American Bar Assn) crashed with no survivors.

The bad bews:

A few seats were empty.

OR

Remember Dick Cheney's hunting accident?

Everyone was aghast at the VP.

Then it was revealed that his hunting partner, who was wounded, was a lawyer.

After that the criticism was muted.

OR

Very unpopular bumper sticker:

I BRAKE FOR LAWYERS

garryb - 29-12-2006 at 10:07

What do you call a hundred lawyers at the bottom of the sea? A good start.

Sauron - 29-12-2006 at 10:18

That's the spirit!

But what a terrible thing to do to the aquasphere.

There are some things even bottom dwellers shouldn't have to eat.

Rosco Bodine - 29-12-2006 at 11:54

Saddams lawyer says he will go to the gallows smiling .

Sooooo I was thinking ....maybe singing a little song
would be cheerful too ,

something like ,

If you're happy and you know it , kick your feet .....
if you're happy and you know it , kick your feet ....

If you're happy and you know it ,
and you really want to show it .....
if you're happy and you know it ....

* KICK * Your Feet !!!

They brought Saddam a new suit of clothes this morning ,
and he complained it was four inches too long .

The tailor reassured him it would work out just fine ,
after he was stretched , it would be a proper fit .

[Edited on 29-12-2006 by Rosco Bodine]

Sauron - 29-12-2006 at 14:08

The world will be a better cleaner place after this butcher is out of it. You know who was role model? STALIN. Who killed a lot more Russians than the Nazis did. Saddam killed a lot more Moslems than anyone else. In the second half of the 20th century Saddam stood out as a murderer without parallel. Pol Pot was a piker by comparisonm Pinochet a boy scout. The Kurds will rejoice and so will the majority of the Iraqui Shiites. So will his victims the Kuwaitis.

franklyn - 30-12-2006 at 17:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron ( Hazard to Others ) Location: Bangkok, Thailand

Science Applications; AAI; Aerojet General, MITRE, ho hum. I pulled the pin at the end of
the Reagan years, came here to drink beer and let Thai girls have their way with me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rosco Bodine ( International Hazard )

Add Batelle/UT at Oak Ridge to the list , and you have the picture .......same period of time
for my own educational experiences . I suppose you have a knack for oriental language ......
Do the Thai girls appreciate you as a cunning linguist

Hot off the press:

A Warning for you and any friends you have who may be regular visitors or
tourists in the far east, be wary of the hospitality girls scam.
Over the last month I became a victim of a clever scam while out sightseeing.
Simply going out on the town has turned out to be quite traumatic.
Don't be naive enough to think it couldn't happen to you.

Here's how the scam works:
Two seriously good-looking 18-year-old girls come over to your car as you sit
there blase to the milieu.
They both start wiping your windshield with a cloth and window cleaning fluid,
with their breasts almost falling out of their skimpy t-shirts. It is impossible not
to look.
When you thank them and offer them a tip, they say 'No' and instead ask you
for a lift to a nearby social club. You agree and they get in the back seat.
On the way, they start having sex with each other. Then one of them climbs
over into the front seat and performs oral sex on you, while the other one
steals your wallet.

I had my wallet stolen on the 18th, 20th and 24th, twice on the 26th, and
three times yesterday, and I will, very likely again this coming weekend.

So to all you connoisseurs of the local Thai delicacy Poontang, be aware that
when indulging your appetite for this staple far eastern cuisine that It's not
just true of chinese nookie that when you eat one, an hour later
you're hungry again.

P.S
what does any of the B.S. in this thread to do with energetic materials ?
For all my efforts I have yet to have a condom explode on me.

.

Sauron - 30-12-2006 at 18:20

Firstly, almost no tourist or business visitor will be driving a car.

Secondly sounds more like ladyboys (some of whom are seriously good looking) than girls. Ladyboys are the local pickpockets. So congrats, you got a bit of head from a boy not a girl.

Third, I have heard of that scam in the Phillipines but not in Thailand.

Finally, I have lived here for damned neat twenty years and I have never been pickpocketed, drugged, robbed, ripped off, scammed, mugged, etc. Bangkok is a city where you can safely walk anywhere at 4 am. and not go armed or be in danger. That is not true of my home town in USA (New Orleans) or the last place I lived in USA (Washington DC) or many many other places in USA.

In conclusion, if the experience was not energetic, try synthesizing some Viagra.

There is some delightful chemistry involved. The generic is sildefanil.

Sauron - 30-12-2006 at 18:32

BTW this thread was supposed to be about nomenclature of this as yet unsynthesized molecule and its putative precursor.

I was the only one who picked up this gauntlet.

So we got a wee bit off topic.

Rosco Bodine - 31-12-2006 at 04:27

Quote:

Originally posted by franklyn
one of them climbs
over into the front seat and performs oral sex on you, while the other one
steals your wallet.

I had my wallet stolen on the 18th, 20th and 24th, twice on the 26th, and
three times yesterday, and I will, very likely again this coming weekend.

Soooo ....in franklyns automotive service regimen , there are
regular contributions of fresh DNA samples , and adequate
morsels for reward in expendable wallets ....intended to
keep feeding the pigeons , as if an interesting pass time
being delivered to a most satisfied sitter on a park bench

The loss of so many wallets could only be intentional ....
and each bank note well spent as if the pretty dealer of
blackjack had whispered something about how grateful
you might be to her later after her shift ends .....for the present turn of a friendly card

It's all strictly business .....even if its monkey business all the way

Quote:

So to all you connoisseurs of the local Thai delicacy Poontang, be aware that
when indulging your appetite for this staple far eastern cuisine that It's not
just true of chinese nookie that when you eat one, an hour later
you're hungry again.

For the longest time I thought the Poon Tang province was
somewhere in China ....but damn , the more I travel , the
more I believe it is everywhere or somewhere close to Shangri La or Shangri OooooLala

And You are right it is
just like potato chips , once you start munching , you simply can't eat just one , it's really more like pistachio nuts , since you have to pry open the pink little shell to get at the salty little morsel inside

Happy New Year !

[Edited on 31-12-2006 by Rosco Bodine]

Sauron - 31-12-2006 at 05:34

I guess nookie is more interesting than nomenclature.

I named the precursor, thereby the six groups hanging off the ring; and I named the peroxide ring. A trivial matter to put all that together (but not to put the molecule together.)

What remains undone is the absolute stereochemical description.

I have never looked at a TATP prep as I generally am trying to avoid making peroxides rather than the other way around. However I gather than the prep involves acetone, H2)2 (I assume 30%?) and H2SO4 conc. So, acetone is a ketone. Urea "could" be regarded as a ketone although we more correctly think of it as a di-amide of carbonic acid, nicht wahr? The particular urea being proposed as precursor is one where the nitrogens attached to carbonyl as tertiary (in the aziridine ring) so, if you have prepared such a urea will H2)2 and acid catalyst condense it a la TATP?

Or would it in principle require some other synthetic strategy?

Entirely theoretical as I gather this has not been done and I am not about to be the one to try.

And I am not an energetics boffin so do not know if there are other less strained tertiary ureas like for example tetramethylureau that have been tried in this manner??

franklyn - 31-12-2006 at 13:58

Sauron
Bar fines aside, if you're going to ring the bar bell here, at least make it worth
our while. Sounds to me like the last interesting scuttle butt you knew was
from about the time Titan II's became a fond memory. In keeping with this
thread your latest entry is more on the money , thank you.
P.S. Bestwishes to all this coming year from Times Square
.

[Edited on 31-12-2006 by franklyn]

Sauron - 31-12-2006 at 20:55

My official position in Thailand, and all of ASEAN's ten member nations, is as Bureau Chief for a defense-intelligence newsletter out of Washington. A position I have held since 1990. Fully accredited. So you see, the sort of "scuttlebutt" I trade in is rather more refined. Not likely to be posted here.

Here is for nattering on about chemistry, which is my avocation and the black hole money pit I pour my discretionary income into.

As my official position is pretty much a sinecure, I have a lot of time on my hands and my income does not come from there either (thanks be to God.)

Rosco Bodine - 1-1-2007 at 03:37

Being "Bureau Chief" for a defense-intelligence newsletter out of Washington sounds like quite a heavy responsibility , and you are doing an excellent job
of it too , just keep up the good work .

It brings to mind another tough duty post ,
being chief inspector and superintendent of maintenance for the US and Canadian border bronze survey markers which are afixed to the surface of exposed stones across the northern frontier .

I have already quietly done the job voluntarily without pay for over forty years , and now should receive at least
a fair retirement package for my patriotism and dedication . That the markers remain intact today is proof
of the wonderful job I have done .

12AX7 - 1-1-2007 at 05:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Rosco Bodine
sounds like quite a heavy responsibility

Idunno, did you see his use of "sinecure"? I had to look it up. Basically a token occupation usually without much importance or income.

Rosco Bodine - 1-1-2007 at 05:19

Yeah Tim I caught that ....and
we are holding open a position for you as
Superintendent of Roadway Snow Removal
for the City of Miami

hoping that the demands
of the position won't cause any sort of
" performance anxiety "

Sounds like a good 200K annual salary position to me
with a full benefit package , expense account , ect.
of course .

12AX7 - 1-1-2007 at 07:52

Thanks,

You picked from the right state.

(Says the person living in the state with only rain in december this season!)

Sauron - 1-1-2007 at 10:12

In fact this newsletter used to cover the Islamic world and the Pacific Rim. My turf is a big slice of the Pacific Rim. However, about a decade ago the co-editor for that part of the newsletter left and the remaining editor and publisher is an Islamic world specialist. So he dropped the Pacific Rim coverage. I became redundant. He is an old friend, we worked together previously on "Defense & Foreign Affairs Magazine where he was managing editor and I was contributing editor for infantry weapons. So, he has kept me on the staff. This is advantageous for me here. And that is what I mean by sinecure. BTW that world is pronounced as if the c was a sh.