Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Phenylacetic Acid

JJay - 2-3-2017 at 10:45

I just saw phenylacetic acid being offered for sale as a 40% solution by a well-known and reputable supplier with the comment that they "can't sell it in pure form." I can't imagine that they'll be selling it for very long. I'd provide a link, but I can't imagine any legitimate purpose for buying phenylacetic acid.

In all seriousness, is there any legitimate purpose for a 40% phenylacetic acid solution?? It seems almost like seeing a 50/50 mixture of red phosphorus and sodium sulfate sold as stump remover....





[Edited on 2-3-2017 by JJay]

Db33 - 2-3-2017 at 11:24

my bad i thought it was ebay you were talking about, which is known to be a bad place to look for such items. But the place you speak of i am familiar with but unsure of the reliability.

[Edited on 2-3-2017 by Db33]

JJay - 2-3-2017 at 12:57

They have a good reputation, but I've never bought anything from them, and who knows, they might have just listed it on their website by mistake or something. I'm not about to buy any phenylacetic acid to verify the legitimacy of the offer, but it sure looks legit....

Sidmadra - 2-3-2017 at 14:26

I can think of a great deal of legitimate uses for phenylacetic acid, at least within the realm of synthesizing various hetereocyclic compounds. It's an extremely basic building block for the most part. Unfortunately many listed chemicals are very basic building blocks. You would be surprised how many different compounds I've had to synthesize that required a methylamine group, yet It's just not something I'd want laying around because of the stigma it has. I instead end up having to go a few steps out of the way to achieve the desired transformation.

Legally speaking, sellers of List 1 chemicals are required to have DEA authorization and registration, and are also required to obtain an intended-use statement from the purchaser. If the individual/company is just purchasing for internal use then no registration with the DEA is required, but rest assured their information will be passed along to the DEA as per the reporting requirements by the selling company.

Here's some example documents from a company detailing their procedures for such:
http://www.riccachemical.com/Documents/regrequirements.pdf
http://www.riccachemical.com/Documents/order_acceptance_poli...

So it wouldn't be illegal to buy, you just need to state your intended use of it and not mind being on the DEA's radar.

I'd also point out it's not unusual for companies to sell listed chemicals. Many don't because they see it as an unnecessary bureaucratic hassle to just sell a handful of reagents, but it's really not much different from how companies like Sigma sell them. It's perfectly legal if done properly.

[Edited on 2-3-2017 by Sidmadra]

JJay - 2-3-2017 at 14:36

Quote: Originally posted by Sidmadra  
I can think of a great deal of legitimate uses for phenylacetic acid, at least within the realm of synthesizing various hetereocyclic compounds. It's an extremely basic building block for the most part. Unfortunately many listed chemicals are very basic building blocks. You would be surprised how many different compounds I've had to synthesize that required a methylamine group, yet It's just not something I'd want laying around because of the stigma it has. I instead end up having to go a few steps out of the way to achieve the desired transformation.

Legally speaking, sellers of List 1 chemicals are required to have DEA authorization and registration, and are also required to obtain an intended-use statement from the purchaser. If the individual/company is just purchasing for internal use then no registration with the DEA is required, but rest assured their information will be passed along to the DEA as per the reporting requirements by the selling company.

Here's some example documents from a company detailing their procedures for such:
http://www.riccachemical.com/Documents/regrequirements.pdf
http://www.riccachemical.com/Documents/order_acceptance_poli...

So it wouldn't be illegal to buy, you just need to state your intended use of it and not mind being on the DEA's radar.


According to this, 40% phenylacetic compositions are not regulated by the DEA (the threshold is 80% for red phosphorus): https://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/FED_REGS/rules/2004/fr121...

So it's actually legal to sell a 40% phenylacetic acid composition to a hobbyist... pretty mind-blowing.

Sidmadra - 2-3-2017 at 14:50

Wow. That list is extremely surprising. I'm surprised they would allow such insignificant levels of dilution to make many of those reagents exempt. I get the impression that the list is almost sarcastic, or a trap of some kind for sketchy companies.

JJay - 2-3-2017 at 15:00

It looks like some companies lobbied specifically to get the PAA threshold limit lowered.

I'm thinking it would be kind of cool to have some PAA but then again it wouldn't really be all that cool, and it could lead to problems.

Racconized - 5-3-2017 at 04:36

There are many legitimate application's for phenylacetic acid and it would be very nice if you didn't go spreading the sources. Those who use phenylacetic acid for legitimate reasons know where to find it and I think it would be wrong to make it inaccessible for them. The most common legitimate uses for it is not really related to chemistry btw

[Edited on 5-3-2017 by Racconized]

[Edited on 5-3-2017 by Racconized]

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 08:23

I haven't bought any, mainly because I can't think of a good reason. Also, I don't think anyone has "spread the sources." I deliberately withheld the name of the supplier.

Elemental Phosphorus - 5-3-2017 at 12:11

According to Wikipedia, phenyacetic acid is used in some perfumes. This could be for making your own perfume. If not advertised as such though, it seems sketchy. Also, I personally wouldn't buy any because the DEA might pay me a visit. The last thing anyone needs is law enforcement barging in.

JJay - 5-3-2017 at 12:20

Yeah, I can just picture how that would go.

"Why did you buy the phenylacetic acid?" "Oh, I just like the way it smells." "Do you have a lab?"

....

"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say ...."