Sciencemadness Discussion Board - amateurs chemists and energetic material enthusiats are significantly reducing in asia

amateurs chemists and energetic material enthusiats are significantly reducing in asia

DubaiAmateurRocketry - 23-2-2017 at 23:20

I just had some conversation with some people I met few years back who are amateur chemists / enthusiasts. Apparantly in China at least, regulations on reagents selling has been significantly increased after some firework accidents related to unregulated chemical trading and few minor terrorist actions.

They say they're untable to obtain reagents anymore, few said still obtainable, but the sellers are taking extremely high risk since its now illegal to sell to amateurs now, there is a passport/licence to obtain any.

Plutonium404 - 24-2-2017 at 00:54

The chemical laws in China are very straightforward, but they are also severely limiting.

Individuals may not buy/sell/make/transport/use the following chemicals no matter what:

Explosive precursors:
PERCHLORIC ACID [50-72%]
POTASSIUM CHLORATE
SODIUM CHLORATE
POTASSIUM PERCHLORATE
LITHIUM PERCHLORATE
AMMONIUM PERCHLORATE
SODIUM PERCHLORATE
NITRIC ACID [>70%]
POTASSIUM NITRATE
BARIUM NITRATE
STRONTIUM NITRATE
SODIUM NITRATE
SILVER NITRATE
LEAD NITRATE
NICKEL NITRATE
MAGNESIUM NITRATE
CALCIUM NITRATE
ZINC NITRATE
CAESIUM NITRATE
NITROMETHANE
NITROETHANE
NITROCELLULOSE,DRY OR WETTED WITH WATER(OR ALCOHOL)
NITROCELLULOSE WITH <18% PLASTICIZING SUBSTANCE
NITROCELLULOSE WITH ALCOHOL
NITROCELLULOSE WITH WATER
NITROCELLULOSE WITH ALCOHOL, NOT MORETHAN 12.6% NITROGEN
NITROCELLULOSE WITHPLASTICIZING SUBSTANCE, NOT MORETHAN 12.6% NITROGEN
NITRONAPHTHALENES
NITROBENZENES
NITROPHENOLS(O-,M-,P-)
NITROANILINES
2，4-DINITROTOLUENE
2，6-DINITROTOLUENE
DINITROPHENOL
DINITROPHENOLATES
DINITRORESSORCINOL
HYDROGEN PEROXIDE SOLUTION >27.5%
PEROXYACETICACID
POTASSIUM PEROXIDE
SODIUM PEROXIDE
LITHIUM PEROXIDE
CALCIUM PEROXIDE
MAGNESIUM PEROXIDE
ZINC PEROXIDE
BARIUM PEROXIDE
STRONTIUM PEROXIDE
UREA HYDROGEN PEROXIDE
DICUMYL PEROXIDE
POTASSIUM SUPEROXIDE
SODIUM SUPEROXIDE
HEXAMETHYLENETETRAMINE
METHYLAMINE
ETHYLENE DIAMINE
SULPHUR
ALUMINIUM POWDER UNCOATED
LITHIUM
SODIUM
POTASSIUM
ZIRCONIUM POWDER，DRY
ANTIMONY POWDER
MAGNESIUMPOWDER (PYROPHORIC)
MAGNESIUM ALLOYS POWDER
ZINC POWDER or ZINC DUST (PYROPHORIC)
ALUMINIUM SILICON POWDER
SODIUM BOROHYDRIDE
LITHIUM BOROHYDRIDE
POTASSIUM BOROHYDRIDE
SODIUM PICRAMATE
SODIUM PERMANGANATE
POTASSIUM PERMANGANATE
Reference

Extremely Toxic Chemicals:
http://wenku.baidu.com/link?url=ZeDX75yPS3-B3kAQ2Uw9oT1ZXmcWW3ZGi_r9Kd25S9yUzJlGflzKu6rNOaVFCcwUGx4mKdYpy9H0I6Wlvi8lXQ8gR4mjqQdPfvH3HXv_5Zy

Notable ones include: Basically all inorganic mercury compounds, and all cyanide compounds, and a lot of fluoride compounds
(This is actually the 2012 list, they updated it in 2015 where they removed I think 80 or so chemicals and added a further 100 or so, but I can't find an updated version of the list that also has English names of the chemicals.)

Drug precursors:
Phenylacetic Acid
Acetic Anhydride
Chloroform
Diethyl Ether
Piperidine
Reference

The following chemicals are available for purchase by individuals ONLY IF you get a licence from the police:

Drug precursors:
Toluene
Acetone
MEK
Potassium Permanganate
Sulfuric Acid
Hydrochloric Acid
Reference

As can be seen, a lot of important chemicals for hobby chemistry and amateur pyrotechnics are flat out illegal for individuals, and the handful that is available require a licence that is difficult to get and expires after 2 years.

However, the plus side seems to be that any chemical not on the three lists that are mentioned (drug precursors, explosive precursors, and extremely toxic) is basically free game to buy without excessive worry. I really hope this helps out anyone who may be uncertain about chemical laws in China

Jstuyfzand - 24-2-2017 at 01:04

Being a chemist in China must be fun!

NeonPulse - 27-2-2017 at 22:46

Wow that list is incredibly limiting. What would the penalty be for possession of any of the substances in the first list? How are nitrate salts controlled considering their use in agriculture? It is no wonder there are practically no Chinese SM users here save the odd one who appears rarely- or used to anyway.

PHILOU Zrealone - 28-2-2017 at 00:55

Here in Belgium also since the start of the year 2017.

Europe has decided to strenghten the control at selling place..

So in one of my favourite chem-shop I wasn't able to buy HNO3 40% (aqua fortis in art for Copper plate engraving) anymore...apprently the ban is also on chlorates, perchlorates and water peroxide...
You need to buy it with a referenced societal number (sell-buy tax number) to fully identify the buyer and sometimes you need to have a professionnal licence (delivered by the state) for the use of certain chemicals into your specific field.

But this is stupid since I'm convinced than an evil individual can stil buy or steal/rob from those intermediaries.
Also they ban HNO3 but they stil sell NaNO2, NaNO3 and concentrated H2SO4...they say that since it involes more synthesis steps, it will discourage terrorists to make bombs...

The main problem I see is that the consequences will be worst:
Instead of buying aceton, chlorhydric acid and water peroxide in large quantities ... what is quite suspicious and usually brought attention of the autorities/police to easily find potential terrorist or activists (at least in 50-70% of the cases) and instead of blowing themselves while making it (Darwin natural selection at work) or making a reduced number of human death...
It will displace the problem and strenghten it:
1°) Terrorist will buy stronger explosives onto the black market like C4 or whatever (there are al lot of stocks from the eastern countries)...so this will make more injuries in a more efficient way with less spontaneous death in the process of making.
2°) Terrorist will be less easily found by the police...since the buying path will be at a second underneath plan.
3°) Terrorist may shift onto harder to do things...like chemical or biochemical weapons

wg48 - 28-2-2017 at 02:24

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Here in Belgium also since the start of the year 2017.

Europe has decided to strenghten the control at selling place..

So in one of my favourite chem-shop I wasn't able to buy HNO3 40% (aqua fortis in art for Copper plate engraving) anymore...apprently the ban is also on chlorates, perchlorates and water peroxide...
You need to buy it with a referenced societal number (sell-buy tax number) to fully identify the buyer and sometimes you need to have a professionnal licence (delivered by the state) for the use of certain chemicals into your specific field.

The purchase, sale, possession, use or import of explosive precursors which includes nitric acid greater than 3% was banned for any person with out a license few years ago. The EU regulations where issued 2013.

At the start of this year they added more products to the reportable list. It includes various nitrates, concentrated sulphuric and hexamine.

nitro-genes - 28-2-2017 at 02:36

Legislation has IMO completely lost touch with reality, below is a news article (in Dutch) in which new laws are planned to make it obligatory to farmers to inject artificial fertilizer directly into the ground. The responsible spokesman of the goverment department involved further calls for people to watch fertilized land carefully and report if people are collecting the fertilizer grains from the ground.

http://www.debutenpost.nl/terrorismebestrijders-willen-kunst...

This may seem hilarious, though at the same time it pisses me off that some well communally paid organization make descisions like this, defending itś own existence by completely illogical fear mongering to hide the economical and potentially environmental damage they do, much like a pathogen would...

Makes you wonder if common sense would actually apply when caught synthesizing sub gram amounts of EMs as an amateur enthusiast. Guess not, so this is a goodbye to SMDB for me.

[Edited on 28-2-2017 by nitro-genes]

PHILOU Zrealone - 28-2-2017 at 02:36

Quote: Originally posted by wg48

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

Maybe they gave some time to the various countries to comply with their EU directive...because stil in 2016 I was able to buy as a non professional (even without ID card) KClO3, HNO3 (40-69%), H2SO4 (96%), Formol (30%), Ammonia (12%) even hydrazine (20%)...now I stil have acces to formol, ammonia, H2SO4, NaNO2, NaNO3...but I haven't check yet in my other favourite supplyer for Mercury, hydrazine, ...

Anyway I have a brother that is professionnal gardener...so he has acces to fertilizers, weed killers, ...and I'm (bio)chemical engineer so I don't care to go through the process of making those from scratch...I have enough material, glasware, ironware and inoxware just like weird reactants (catalyst) to make nearly all I want to do.
It will just take an extra day or week to get the wished product.

wg48 - 28-2-2017 at 07:38

Not all nitric acid sellers on ebay heard about or complied with the 2013 ban. One seller received a lot of questions about the license at first his response was "what license". I short time later he was only selling 3%. That was super irritating to me as I had pulled him out of my favourite list to buy some nitric acid at that time. That’s when I discovered the ban..

So I guess you where lucky with your supplier prior to this year. I suspect that if you search in the “back water’s” of the internet and real places you will still find it for sale. Perhaps sellers that last bought or aquired a drum of acid many years ago and are still selling it now in small lots.

[Edited on 28-2-2017 by wg48]

PHILOU Zrealone - 28-2-2017 at 14:15

Today I bought without any troubles (again with no ID card nor any questions) and into another shop:
5L H2O2 130 Volumes (30%)
5L ammonia 12%
1L H2SO4 96%
CaC2 (1 kg)
5L bleach water 50° active chlorine
5L formaldehyde 30%
1L isopropanol
1kg granular NaOH
1L HCl 23%

It seems that formaldehyde was hidden and not on the shelves into the shop but into the back storage area of the shop...too dangerous following some rules. WTF

The seller told me it would no more be available in may 2017...so maybe I will make some storage stock...before not available anymore...

I think I could have taken an extra 5L of aceton...and they wouldn't even have noticed all what is needed to make the infamous aceton peroxide (CDAP-CTAP) was into my basket...note that I have all what is needed to make HMTD ...none of the two peroxides are on my plan at all but stil it should not be possible...especially in Belgium...

Maybe I shoudl work as an antiterrorist controler into all the belgian shops

to check if the safety rules are wel applied.

j_sum1 - 28-2-2017 at 14:42

:envious:
There aint no shop like that around where I live.

I could buy HCl, NaOH and bleach from a hardware store. They also stock isopropyl alcohol in 100mL quantities at ridiculous prices. I haven't found 30% H2O2 anywhere yet but there are some possibilities. All the rest is basically off limits as far as OTC stuff goes.

Plutonium404 - 1-3-2017 at 07:50

Quote: Originally posted by NeonPulse

Wow that list is incredibly limiting. What would the penalty be for possession of any of the substances in the first list? How are nitrate salts controlled considering their use in agriculture? It is no wonder there are practically no Chinese SM users here save the odd one who appears rarely- or used to anyway.

I think the penalty for owning a drug precursor is 10000RMB (about 1400USD) and the penalty for owning explosive precursor or highly toxic substance is 5000RMB (around 700USD).

The jersey rebel - 1-3-2017 at 08:15

nitrates! really china. Nitrates are essentially unenforceable. Bans don't work. Don't believe me? look at the drug war! I could easily find some guy on the street to buy iodine or hard drugs from if I saw fit. just go to the nearest city and find some shady guy in an ally way :cool:

! Nitrates are so easy to make. Compost/water/space/limestone/wood ashes. Yeah let's ban composting, that'll solve our environmental issues. Morons! If they wanted to stop terrorism, they'd stop banning stuff and bending over backwards to radical Islamic terrorists. This ban is surrender to Islam!

Chop the head off the snake. a ban simply snips the tail off. They'd go through the black market anyway.

PHILOU Zrealone - 2-3-2017 at 15:22

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

:envious:
There aint no shop like that around where I live.

I could buy HCl, NaOH and bleach from a hardware store. They also stock isopropyl alcohol in 100mL quantities at ridiculous prices. I haven't found 30% H2O2 anywhere yet but there are some possibilities. All the rest is basically off limits as far as OTC stuff goes.

Yes but in Oz, you have true magicians and witches...so it should be no problem

Chisholm - 19-5-2017 at 15:05

I find it weird that the birthplace of the firework has tried making individual possession of nitrate salts illegal. I assume firecrackers and distilled water are easily acquired?

fusso - 22-1-2019 at 07:09

So red P is allowed in China?!

(found this thread from https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=80...)

Vomaturge - 22-1-2019 at 10:34

I guess I shouldn't have said "chemicals are very restricted in China" It would be more precise to say "In China, a very large number of chemicals are not available for legal sale to individuals, due to the fact they are potential explosive precursors. The lack of so many otherwise common reagents is restrictive not only to explosive production, but to all forms of amateur chemistry"

The United States and several other countries ban phosphorus, in spite of having very loose laws for most other chemicals. This was done in an attempt to stop a specific synthetic route to a specific drug, as far as I know. Perhaps in China, drug production is less of a concern, and clandestine explosive production is seen as the greater threat. I would say that to someone who enjoys chemistry but makes neither explosives nor drugs, the Chinese laws are far more limiting than a ban on phosphorus.