Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Ammonium chloride & its various formulations (Dimethyl benzyl, Ethylbenzyl, Dimethyl, etc)

RogueRose - 14-1-2017 at 11:57

I've found this compound in a number of products that I use, one being a bathroom (specifically shower/tub) cleaner, and a general purpose/surface cleaner. Both claim to kill 99.9% of groty germ & bacteria!

The ingredients get a little confusing as I am not efficient in understanding the longer chemical names.

Benzyl Ammonium Chloride

All purpose cleaner - pump spray
n-Alkyl (60% C14, 30% C16, 5% C12, 5% C18) Dimethyl benzyl ammonium chlorides .11%
n-Alkyl (68% C12, 32% C14) ethylmethyl ammonium chlorides .11%
Total .22%

Foam bathroom - aerosol
Alkyl Dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride - .096%
Octyl benzyl ammonium chloride - .072%
Dioctyl Dimethyl ammonium chloride - .036%
Didecyl Dimethyl ammonium chloride - .036%
total .24%

liquid algaecide - gallon
Dialkyl (60% C14, 30% C16, 5% C12, 5% C18) Dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride - 4.98%
Dialkyl (60% C14, 30% C16, 5% C12, 5% C18) methyl benzyl ammonium chloride - .02%
total 5%

Now I thought I would try using the last item, mixed with water to a .2-.3% concentration (similar to the other 2 items) as a cleaning agent. It didn't seem to work as well but there may have been other ingredients ("inert") like soap or something that changed pH maybe. IDK if this line of thinking is correct in that it should have worked to some degree the same as the others?

what I did think is that this was a good time to learn how these chemical names work so I can understand them in the future, meaning..

Dimethyl - means has to CH3 groups?

As far as Alkyl groups, wiki lists to 12 carbon atoms, but these list/ingredients go up to 18,) I did notice that the BAC listed n= 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18 - so is that where the 5% C18 comes from?

From looking at the benzyl group, it looks like it is the "base" of the chemical with the benzene ring? Is that correct?

If anyone could explain or point me to a place that explains how chemical names like this are used/ what they mean, that would help a lot. I'm not sure what/how to even search this.

Also, as far as synthesis of these products, are the various % (C12, C14, C16, C18 - not ingredient concentrations) in each listing something that just "happens" or are they specifically engineered this way to give those exact locations (like when methanol is made in fermentation, but in small amounts - though unwanted).

I'm sorry if this is confusing, as it is to me, I don't know the proper terminology to ask the correct questions. Man I wish schools actually taught chem, even intro to chem in colleges didn't cover this type of stuff.

Could this be used for anything interesting such as a source for benzene? At $1/gal there is 6.4 oz of the active ingredient in the jug.

[Edited on 14-1-2017 by RogueRose]

PirateDocBrown - 14-1-2017 at 12:56

All these things are quaternary ammonium salts.

When nitrogen has lost an electron (in this case to a chlorine), it becomes tetravalent, and can substitute, in this case to a variety of alkyl or benzyl groups.

These being non-polar, in contrast to the ionized nitrogen atom, mean that the resulting molecule has a lipophilic side (the alkyl side) and a hydrophilic side (the nitrogen).

This makes these salts excellent surfactants, as the solubilize oily (dirty) materials, stabilize them in colloidal suspension, and allow them to be broken up and rinsed away by water.

In other words, they are a type of detergent.

These, in turn, can disrupt the cell walls of microorganism by means of this solvation, killing them.

In this case, they are being used as an algecide.

Sure, one could break such molecules apart and get useful materials out of them, but to go after benzene here seems rather roundabout.


[Edited on 1/14/17 by PirateDocBrown]

PirateDocBrown - 14-1-2017 at 13:08

Now to answer your question about the benzyl being a "base", no. Here, the benzyl group is a substituent on the quaternary amine.

I would remind you that benzyl refers to a methyl-substituted toluene, not a direct nitrogen bond to an aromatic carbon.

As for learning terminology, this level of nomenclature is normally taught in first-semester Organic Chem, if you are a Chem major, you would generally take this as a sophomore. Freshman General Chem would not usually have this within its scope.

RogueRose - 14-1-2017 at 13:13

Quote: Originally posted by PirateDocBrown  
All these things are quaternary ammonium salts.

When nitrogen has lost an electron (in this case to a chlorine), it becomes tetravalent, and can substitute, in this case to a variety of alkyl or benzyl groups.

These being non-polar, in contrast to the ionized nitrogen atom, mean that the resulting molecule has a lipophilic side (the alkyl side) and a hydrophilic side (the nitrogen).

This makes these salts excellent surfactants, as the solubilize oily (dirty) materials, stabilize them in colloidal suspension, and allow them to be broken up and rinsed away by water.

In other words, they are a type of detergent.

These, in turn, can disrupt the cell walls of microorganism by means of this solvation, killing them.

In this case, they are being used as an algecide.

Sure, one could break such molecules apart and get useful materials out of them, but to go after benzene here seems rather roundabout.


[Edited on 1/14/17 by PirateDocBrown]



wow, thanks for the explination! That's the type of thing I wanted to know. I'm still curious about how the different C14, C16, C18 placements come into existence. Meaning, when the compound is being synthesized, are those just the natural locations that are effected by the process - or is each group "targeted" for those percentage amounts.

I'm guessing that this will react with HCl in some way but don't know what it will produce. The reason I ask is because these two are often used very close to each other or right after one another on the same surface (some may try a shortcut and spray both at once) - so I'd like to know what that is going to make if they are mixed. Percentages are .5% max BAC and 20-23% HCl/water mix if there was a chance of them mixing.

PirateDocBrown - 14-1-2017 at 13:24

The C(n) groups are straight-chain alkyls bound directly to the nitrogen.

If I were to hazard a guess, such a mixture of alkyls might indicate a biological origin, likely reduced fatty acids. The range of abundance and the all-even chain length numbers would so suggest, anyway.

I couldn't hazard a guess about reactivity, as I do not know what other materials are present.

I should also point out that these salts are often quite useful in the lab as phase transfer catalysts. They are, however, generally used in pure form.

violet sin - 15-1-2017 at 00:46

PDB- " I should also point out that these salts are often quite useful in the lab as phase transfer catalysts. They are, however, generally used in pure form"
----
while not a phase transfer catalyst, once attempted to use some pool treatment for it's quaternary ammonium content as a brightener/leveler in copper plating. The bath concentrations and pH were corect prior. Something co-mixed was not playing friendly as it turned opaque and settled out. So similar isn't always close enough. but I bet it could be made to work with some effort.

HTH- "Active ingredient: Alkyl (60% C14, 30% C16, 5% C12, 5% C18) Dimethyl Benzyl Ammonium Chlorides - 15.0%. Alkyl (68% C12, 32% C14) Dimethyl Ethylbenzyl Ammonium Chlorides - 15.0%. Inert Ingredients: - 70.0%. Total - 100%"

Decent strength for decent price <$10 for 0.34gal. Would last for a long time at a few ml per use.