Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Cleaning & Disinfecting power of NaClO vs H2O2 in bathroom, laundry/room or kitchen setting

RogueRose - 12-1-2017 at 21:39

I've worked in restaurant kitchens as well as sports facilities (gyms, locker rooms, pools, bathrooms) where I had to clean the areas that we all hate to clean (shower, hot tubs, toilets, saunas, floors -tile & linoleum/vinyl & concrete, mats/carpets of rubber or like, counter tops/sinks, stainless/Formica/wood counter tops, etc). Most places I've worked at use bleach and some kind of soap mix for much of these areas where it is scrubbed and then hosed/rinsed off in almost all cases. In some places like showers there is some kind of spray/foam that can be used that coats the walls and allowed to drip down the wall and dry on it's own.

The thing that seems to be universal for many of the people I have worked with in these jobs is the intense dislike of the bleach smell after weeks to months working with it and can get to the point where it can be debilitating (vomiting, stomach aches, nausea) for those using it or around it.

I never knew H2O2 was an option for this type of cleaning when I was working with it and I still don't know how it compares to using bleach and how they could be interchanged or substituted.

In many cases, especially in kitchens, ammonia/bleach mixtures sometimes happen forcing the evacuation of the kitchens till it airs out. IDK if H2O2 would have similar reactions (with liq ammonia) - I've seen varying reports (dependent upon concentration of both) from mild/moderate heating to a bubbly effervescence (N2 + NO + H2O). Obviously NH4OH shouldn't be mixed with either.

Now as far as the concentration of the two chemicals, I would say that an 6.25-8.75% NaClO would be the standard mix available in a bottle, to use or dilute as needed. As far as H2O2 I would think that 35% would be the highest available but maybe even as high as 17.5-20% may be max...

In both places I have seen large rubber mats, some have a nylon carpet on top and some are those mats about 1-1.5" thick with 1" circular holes and both are usually 4' x 8' in size. These mats always need cleaned and I know the bleach seems to break them down fairly quickly leading to during and cracking, especially the thick rubber mats. Could spraying on a H2O2 solution and allowing to evap/dry be a solution?

How about in a shower, spraying the walls with a diluted H2O2 mix and allowing to dry/evap. In both cases, mats & shower, there would be no human contact for a minimum of 6 hours to allow it to do it's thing.

Just thinking about the smell of the bleach and cleaning those things turns my stomach - so I think some kind of alternative could possibly help a lot of people as I know I'm not alone on this feeling.

Any insight on comparing these two would be extremely helpful as I've read a lot about each and they seem interchangeable in many situations (although maybe different concentrations application method) and it is the oxidation that performs the bacteria killing action in these two, correct?

Melgar - 12-1-2017 at 23:31

People always warn about the dangers of mixing chlorine bleach and acetone, despite the fact that all that reaction produces are chloramines, which are put in our swimming pools and drinking water deliberately, and probably wouldn't kill anyone who was conscious and able to walk if they accidentally mixed the two. Accidentally mixing peroxide with other cleaning fluids, like, say, acetone and oxalic-acid-based cleanser, when trying to remove a particularly difficult stain might be a whole different story.

Not to mention, many metal surfaces don't respond so well to peroxides, especially in the presence of halides.

Sulaiman - 13-1-2017 at 01:59

I am very wary of 35% hydrogen peroxide, rapid skin damage and explosive, or at least highly combustible, with so many common substances,
plus I believe that hypochlorite is used by biological research institutions as it kills all common 'bugs'
changing to peroxide may not give identical protection,
and you personally would have deliberately, for your own benefit, made that change.
The mere act of asking here, without references to your prior research, is damaging regarding any legal liabilities,
so your first course of action is to formally inform your employer of the problem.
If you are your own boss, then you have a lot of research to do, or pay for :P

boring, but true

EDIT: for the legal liabilities reasons, it is unlikely that the dissinfecting agent will be changed,
so measures such as risk assesment, PPE, added ventilation, training, etc. should be considered.
Are you using the minimum recommended dose, using methods recommended by the manufacturers ?
i.e. have you researched enough about your current usage ?
e.g. if a manufacturer of a product recommends respirators for your conditions, then you need respirators!
If you and your colleagues can devise something inexpensive that will alleviate the problem,
your management would have to seriously consider your recommendations.
But if it not done formally then it will not get done.
Generally, US and EU law make both you and your employer responsible for your safety.


[Edited on 13-1-2017 by Sulaiman]

[Edited on 13-1-2017 by Sulaiman]

JJay - 13-1-2017 at 02:27

Hypochlorite retains its power a disinfectant at very low concentrations as long as the microbial load doesn't overpower it. I'm not sure the same can be said for hydrogen peroxide.

One thing you might want to look into are quaternary ammonium compounds. They will kill pretty much any organism in sufficient quantity but are highly lethal to microorganisms in concentrations that have not been shown to cause any harm to humans despite decades of research. They are commonly included in anti-bacterial soaps and household and industrial disinfectants. They don't kill instantly like hypochlorite and have to be left in contact with surfaces to be disinfected for a period of time to be effective. Also, and they tend to leave a film residue surfaces that they contact, so their use in hospitals and the food industry is regulated. But a quaternary ammonium film left on a surface after disinfecting has an anti-microbial action too, so they can be useful in situations where disinfectant can be used only infrequently.

RogueRose - 13-1-2017 at 02:37

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
People always warn about the dangers of mixing chlorine bleach and acetone, despite the fact that all that reaction produces are chloramines, which are put in our swimming pools and drinking water deliberately, and probably wouldn't kill anyone who was conscious and able to walk if they accidentally mixed the two. Accidentally mixing peroxide with other cleaning fluids, like, say, acetone and oxalic-acid-based cleanser, when trying to remove a particularly difficult stain might be a whole different story.

Not to mention, many metal surfaces don't respond so well to peroxides, especially in the presence of halides.


I'm not worried about an acetone/bleach mix or acetone/peroxide as I don't think acetone would be anywhere in the building except maybe in the maintanance/utility shack - but never as a cleaning agent for any of the above mentioned surfaces.

I guess I was thinking of some kind of dilute form of H2O2 being sprayed inside something like a shower stall, on a toilet/urinal. when I say dilute, I'm thiking anywhere from 1-6% (I would need to find out how well each concentration works for killing bacteria on surfaces such as those). Also, this cleaning would be done daily, so it wouldn't have a 3-6 month build up of nasties to take care of with a 1% solution.

I'm trying to come up with some testing methods to see how well different concentrations work as well as different concentrations of bleach. I don't know what to use to make a surface dirty (maybe just a home toilet not cleaned for a week??). Then spray with diff solutions and then take swabs 6-8 hours later and put in a petri dish. Is there any reason that something like that wouldn't work?

JJay - 13-1-2017 at 03:14

According to this paper, hydrogen peroxide is ineffective against mycobacteria, which are human pathogens: http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Disinfection/Assets/Disinfectio... Apparently, peracetic acid is more effective, and oxone is sometimes used as a disinfectant as well.

There are numerous protocols for researching how effective disinfectants are against microbes. I would advise using an established approach or at least establishing some method based on a controlled study. For example, if you are really serious about this, you could obtain several toilets and soil them uniformly using measured quantities of a nutrient mixture and microbes of a variety you want to kill, allow time for colonization under controlled environmental conditions, and then test your disinfectants on them.

There is abundant research on disinfectants, so you probably don't have to do that much work unless you are actually testing a new product or publishing scientific research, but a controlled study is widely thought to be the best proof of causality.

Herr Haber - 13-1-2017 at 06:27

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
People always warn about the dangers of mixing chlorine bleach and acetone, despite the fact that all that reaction produces are chloramines, which are put in our swimming pools and drinking water


I think it's the other way around. In swimming pools, when people complain about chlorine it's in fact chloramines that's bothering them.
So it's not "too much chlorine" but not enough !
The amines come from people's sweat & piss.

Melgar - 13-1-2017 at 06:28

Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose  
I'm trying to come up with some testing methods to see how well different concentrations work as well as different concentrations of bleach. I don't know what to use to make a surface dirty (maybe just a home toilet not cleaned for a week??). Then spray with diff solutions and then take swabs 6-8 hours later and put in a petri dish. Is there any reason that something like that wouldn't work?

You should look into quaternary sanitizers, it's basically the same active ingredient as Lysol, but they come as tablets that can be dissolved in a gallon of water to give a gallon of disinfectant. You can get 100 tablets for $10, so that's two orders of magnitude better than H2O2, which is typically $20 a gallon, and one order of magnitude better than bleach, which is typically $2 a gallon.

As a bonus, this stuff can be used as a phase transfer catalyst, since it's a quaternary ammonium salt with two strongly hydrophobic side chains. It does tend to form emulsions a lot easier than other quaternary salts though.

[Edited on 1/13/17 by Melgar]

Maroboduus - 13-1-2017 at 19:25

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
People always warn about the dangers of mixing chlorine bleach and acetone, despite the fact that all that reaction produces are chloramines, which are put in our swimming pools and drinking water deliberately, and probably wouldn't kill anyone who was conscious and able to walk if they accidentally mixed the two. Accidentally mixing peroxide with other cleaning fluids, like, say, acetone and oxalic-acid-based cleanser, when trying to remove a particularly difficult stain might be a whole different story.

Not to mention, many metal surfaces don't respond so well to peroxides, especially in the presence of halides.


Wait a minute, don't you mean chlorine bleach and ammonia?

Not much nitrogen in an acetone/bleach mixture.

mesanaw - 16-1-2017 at 10:13

Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  
People always warn about the dangers of mixing chlorine bleach and acetone, despite the fact that all that reaction produces are chloramines, which are put in our swimming pools and drinking water deliberately, and probably wouldn't kill anyone who was conscious and able to walk if they accidentally mixed the two.

Indoor swimming pools require complex ventilation systems to reduce chloramine levels to an acceptable amount. Without a functioning system, it could create a potentially dangerous situation. The dangers of chloramines still exist especially in small bathrooms, closets, supply rooms etc.

Melgar - 28-1-2017 at 20:48

Quote: Originally posted by Maroboduus  
Wait a minute, don't you mean chlorine bleach and ammonia?

Not much nitrogen in an acetone/bleach mixture.

Yes, I did in fact mean that.