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Cervantes - 30-11-2006 at 13:25

Hi i am new here and my english is not so good.

dont order from this company thats all i can say 1 year ago i orderd some iodine 50g from them and today the police fucked up my home.they sayed this company was watched and now busted .Note:I come from Germany not UK

i hope none of you get in this trouble.

[Edited on 30-11-2006 by Cervantes]

[Edited on 30-11-2006 by Cervantes]

MargaretThatcher - 30-11-2006 at 14:30

Thanks.

Blind Angel - 30-11-2006 at 14:38

We already knew that, but thanks for the info.

neutrino - 1-12-2006 at 01:18

There has been some speculation as to whether they are legit or not. Thanks for your input. Btw, you want this thread.

woelen - 1-12-2006 at 04:42

I get the impression that Germany is becoming more and more a bad country to do home chemistry. Approximately one year ago, there also was a big campaign, where more than 700 people were raided and had their houses searched for chemicals. That also was because they purchased chemicals from a company that was busted.

In that case, they were very ruthless. Just the plain fact that you ordered something from that company already lead to big problems. I know of such cases in the Netherlands also, but up to now, the cases I know, were always accompanied with something else. People can get raided if they are known to have chems (they are on a list) and at the same time there are many heavy explosions in the area, where that person lives, or at the same time there seems to be evidence that this person makes drugs.

chromium - 1-12-2006 at 05:50

Quote:

This is major thing that disturbs me. Older times law enforcement could also raid homes but they did not get orders easily. Lot of evidence was needed and even then this was not always granted. In fact, they almost had to prove ones quilt before they could raid the home.

Relaxing of these rules seems very disturbing to me (much more so than restricitons on chemicals). We only have to hope that this does not develop further as communist-like dictatorship is not too unlikely in society that treats personal freedoms this way.

[Edited on 1-12-2006 by chromium]

Cervantes - 1-12-2006 at 08:44

Quote:

Originally posted by woelen
I get the impression that Germany is becoming more and more a bad country to do home chemistry. Approximately one year ago, there also was a big campaign, where more than 700 people were raided and had their houses searched for chemicals. That also was because they purchased chemicals from a company that was busted.

In that case, they were very ruthless. Just the plain fact that you ordered something from that company already lead to big problems. I know of such cases in the Netherlands also, but up to now, the cases I know, were always accompanied with something else. People can get raided if they are known to have chems (they are on a list) and at the same time there are many heavy explosions in the area, where that person lives, or at the same time there seems to be evidence that this person makes drugs.

This company was selling chemicals to kids under the age of 18.

[Edited on 1-12-2006 by Cervantes]

[Edited on 1-12-2006 by Cervantes]

[Edited on 2-12-2006 by Cervantes]

pantone159 - 1-12-2006 at 12:59

Quote:

Originally posted by woelen
I get the impression that Germany is becoming more and more a bad country to do home chemistry.

This seems especially ironic, and sad, as Germany has been a world leader in chemistry. In my book, it ought to be a point of national pride that Germans are good chemists. Raiding houses indiscriminately doesn't help this much.

Eliteforum - 1-12-2006 at 13:11

I've ordered some items from the site and got them just fine.

chemoleo - 1-12-2006 at 18:26

German law says that *if* an individual is under suspicion, particularly minors, of making pyrotechnics, explosive materials, then this suspicion *has* to be followed up. In this case, teens ordered decent quantities of KNO3, NH4NO3 and the lot. Once the details of the customers came out through bank drafts, the police had to follow up each case, leading to a rather incredible wave of house searches. Pointless really, as in the end noone was arrested. But there is a thread on this somewhere in Whimsy.

chloric1 - 1-12-2006 at 19:16

Quote:

We only have to hope that this does not develop further as communist-like dictatorship is not too unlikely in society that treats personal freedoms this way.

[Edited on 1-12-2006 by chromium]

Chromium you got it totally right! Unfortunately, Europe is heading towards a world government dictator ahead of everywhere else. Eventually America will follow suit because I know the masses of people here are not prepared to ward off an dictatorship. Whats more the relative comfort that a free capitalist market has bought will keep most of the population complacient and obedient. At least until the bottom falls out.

12AX7 - 2-12-2006 at 06:42

The world is a strange place... China going from communism to free markets... the west going from democracy to socialism to perhaps communism...

Tim

MargaretThatcher - 2-12-2006 at 10:03

Nonsense, Europe is moving towards authoritarian corporatism.

Nicodem - 2-12-2006 at 10:31

...also known as fascism in its less sophisticated form.
Unfortunately there seems to be nothing anybody in EU can do to prevent such future as it is the people who want it and it is the masses of people that rule in democracy.

vulture - 2-12-2006 at 14:40

Quote:

Unfortunately, Europe is heading towards a world government dictator ahead of everywhere else.

In the EU, people can't be secretly detained without anyone knowing or them being denied acces to a lawyer. This is possible in the US...

In the EU, you don't have to be photographed or have your fingerprints taken before getting on a plane...unless that plane is going to the US...

In the EU, you can just demonstrate in the streets of your capital without being driven into "free speech zones" with armed military guards...

Do I need to continue?

woelen - 18-12-2006 at 02:00

Is kno3.com really busted? This company still is in business. Have a look at their website, it just received a major update. I also know a dutch guy, who orders some KClO4 at that company, and I did not hear of any problems with that.

Is this thread another example of people making each other afraid?

joeflsts - 18-12-2006 at 18:42

Quote:

Originally posted by vulture

Quote:

Unfortunately, Europe is heading towards a world government dictator ahead of everywhere else.

I have lived in both.. I'll will raise my children in America. You can raise yours, should you have any, where ever you decide. Facts are facts, there is a world-wide paranoia about terrorism and chemicals and your lashing out with anti-american diatribe does nothing to make it better. These actions to provide for a "safe" society are the result of peoples willing to give away liberty in the name of safety and government all to willing to take those liberties away. This isn't solely an american problem. At least be intellectually honest about the issue.

vulture - 2-2-2007 at 14:21

Quote:

This isn't solely an american problem. At least be intellectually honest about the issue.

Ofcourse not. But I won't need to leave my fingerprints when I'm flying to spain on sunday. Simple fact like you say. Just as the rest of the things I pointed out. Thus I don't see why the EU is more "fascist" than the US.

I'd like to visit the US you know. But I don't like the idea currently because US customs will be going through the details of my life with a very fine comb once they get the passenger list and I'll be treated like a convicted criminal once I arrive, eg fingerprints taken. No thank you.

Magpie - 2-2-2007 at 15:21

Vulture, you should have no problems visiting the US. As a bird of prey your person will be considered inviolable.

quicksilver - 2-2-2007 at 16:24

Quote:

Originally posted by vulture
[
I'd like to visit the US you know. But I don't like the idea currently because US customs will be going through the details of my life with a very fine comb once they get the passenger list and I'll be treated like a convicted criminal once I arrive, eg fingerprints taken. No thank you.

As an American, the first time I visited Europe I went to Germany. I was treated very well. I brushed up on my pathetic German and did my best. But all those fellows spoke English! They certainly made me feel welcome. Dresden was beautiful. I only wish I had more time to drive to Prague and Amsterdam. I would gladly take a boarder from the EU if they ever wanted to see rural America.
The only thing that saddens me is that people on both sides of the pond don't see what this whole terror issue is doing. We should pluck this thing out like a cancer before it makes us all behave and enact laws that spoil our liberties and goodwill....but what to do????? It's all too real to just wish away.
I don't see making both the EU & the US Wahibbist states as the answer. Perhaps I'm being too judgmental but it seems the more we bend to "try to understand" those who perpetrate terror the more we are attacked. When Spain elected the goverment they did can those people really say that made them feel safer?

MargaretThatcher - 2-2-2007 at 18:29

We should not abandon our people to the fascist theocracy hiding under the moniker of the USA.

As to the Spanish, well good on them. Good on the Portuguese, too. Democracy is alive and well in southern Europe; it's nice to know that it is thriving somewhere.

quicksilver - 3-2-2007 at 06:21

Hell, I always thought that a theocracy meant a government ruled by or subject to religious authority. That sounds like Saudia Arabia, not the USA! There's plenty of things wrong with the US but the basis for our goverment is not a bad one. If folks want to challenge the system, they can. If they don't want to go to religious activities - they don't have to. Try that in a place like Iran!

jim20/20 - 14-8-2007 at 13:01

http://www.stv.tv/news/Police_make_first_discovery_of_crysta...

quicksilver - 15-8-2007 at 06:05

I'm aware that Saudi is a monarchy. My point is that there is no method to challenge the government in either. However, that being said the monarchy of Saudi is so infused with religious dogma that they might as well be a theocracy. The virtually indisputable main thrust concern of the government is maintaining that kingdom and preventing an Islamic Revolution of sorts. Indeed religious authorities in that country hold sway in a manner almost inconceivable in most of the west.

jim20/20 - 15-8-2007 at 11:33

'I was helping to trace terrorists' claims boss
ALAN McEWEN CRIME REPORTER ()

THE owner of an internet business facing extradition to the United States on drug charges today claimed he had been working with the secret services to help trace terrorists.

Brian Howes is currently on the ninth day of a hunger strike in Saughton Prison as he continues to protest his innocence.

The 43-year-old was arrested along with his partner Kerry Anne Shanks, 28, at their home in Bo'ness earlier this year, after US officials accused them of selling the ingredients for the deadly crystal meth drug to Americans over the internet.

Speaking from Saughton, Howes said: "We were selling 40 different chemicals to make fireworks. I contacted Special Branch immediately after the 7/7 bombings because we were worried a couple of the chemicals we sold could be used by terrorists.

"We were working with Special Branch officers based in London and Middlesbrough. They told us to report any suspicious orders, or those from Muslim names, so they could check them out."

The US authorities say the chemicals Howes exported to the US were used to produce crystal meth, or methamphetamine, worth up to £40 million.

Agents from the Drug Enforcement Agency mounted a seven-month surveillance operation before his arrest.

Along with his partner, Howes has spent 190 days in jail since being arrested. He added: "I feel let down by the UK Government and let down by Special Branch. We were running a legal company and they gave us their blessing to go ahead to trade."

The couple face up to 20 years in jail in the US if convicted. Howes has pledged to keep up his hunger strike "to the death" in a bid to highlight their case.

He said: "The US authorities have indited us for 81 charges, but only some of them relate to 'knowingly selling chemicals for the manufacture of illegal drugs'.

"I'm willing to got to the US to face those charges if the rest of the indictments, which are not offences in the UK, are dropped."

US law enforcers claim the couple illegally sold more than 350kg of chemicals through their website, destined for around 100 clandestine drug laboratories overseas.

The police operation began when investigators in Arizona uncovered alleged crystal meth factories that had purchased chemicals through the site.

Howes said: "We've not even been afforded the rights of common criminals after being held 190 days without charge.

"We've been repeatedly denied bail because they consider us flight risks, even though we tick all the boxes with clean records and have four children together. But because the Americans want us, we stay here. This is like a mini-Guantanamo Bay.

"I started the hunger strike last Wednesday. I'm not eating any solid foods, just orange juice. I'm prepared to take it all the way to the death to highlight our case."

He claims his company had a turnover of around £12,000 a month, but he only made around £350 a week after paying staff and overheads.

A Metropolitan Police spokesman said: "We would not comment on any prisoner currently facing extradition proceedings as it may prejudice the case."

A Scottish Prison Service spokesman refused to comment on individual prisoners, but added there were "established procedures in place to manage prisoners who refuse food or fluids".

Last updated: 10-Aug-07 12:16 BST

This article- http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1258512007

and the original link to the stv video news report-
http://www.stv.tv/news/Police_make_first_discovery_of_crysta...

Polverone - 15-8-2007 at 17:15

Any further posts not specifically relating to the thread topic will be deleted from here on. This applies especially to political discussion.

[Edited on 8-15-2007 by Polverone]

tito-o-mac - 7-9-2007 at 05:38

What wil happen if one bought in excessive amount or in bulk, lets say more than 100kg+ any chemicals?

joeflsts - 7-9-2007 at 06:26

Quote:

Originally posted by tito-o-mac
What wil happen if one bought in excessive amount or in bulk, lets say more than 100kg+ any chemicals?

I would say it would depend greatly on what you purchased. If you purchased 100kg of a watched chemical and the threshold was less than that, you should expect a visit in the near future. If you purchased 100kg of an un watched chemical I wouldn't worry much.

Joe

woelen - 7-9-2007 at 06:34

I would find buying 100+ kg of any chemical, watched or not, suspicious if the buyer is a private person. Only the most benign chemicals like NaHCO3, KCl, Na2SO4 and so on would not make me suspicious, but otherwise I would have certain thoughts about it. What business has a private person with huge quantities of a single chemical?

YT2095 - 7-9-2007 at 08:30

unless it was something like Water from your tap, or you were an Industry type, I can`t really think of Any chem that you would need 100+Kg of?

joeflsts - 7-9-2007 at 08:57

It largely depends on how you define "private person". My family are farmers and often purchased more than 100kg of chemicals. There are "private people" and not licensed and purchase from the best, least expensive source. They still do and the ATF or the DEA isn't knocking on their doors.

Now if you purchased 100kg of anything from KNO3.com I suspect you have reason to worry.

Joe

[Edited on 7-9-2007 by joeflsts]

jim20/20 - 8-9-2007 at 13:21

Crystal meth accused released on bail

Article by David Cowan
video Video report by Daqvid Cowan

A Bo'ness couple who have been accused of fuelling the global production of the drug crystal meth have been released on bail after eight months in prison. Brian Howes and Kerry Anne Shanks were arrested in January at the request of American law enforcement agencies.

This morning a Scottish judge said they should be freed while their extradition case is dealt with.

Brian Howes and his partner Kerry Anne Shanks have spent 214 days in prison after the Americans requested their extradition. Brian Howes

Mr Howes has been on hunger strike for the last 30 of them - as these pictures from the time of his arrest show, his protest has taken its toll.

The Americans say the couple supplied chemicals to illegal drugs labs in the states, where they were used to manufacture six million pounds worth of the deadly drug crystal meth. The US agenices have tabled more than 80 charges against them - and they could face massive jail sentences if they're convicted.

This morning a judge grnated them bail as they continue to fight extradition. They will be Brian Howes when he was arrested reunited with their three children this evening - and will be back in court in October

http://www.stv.tv/system/modules/com.smg.copland/components/...

joeflsts - 8-9-2007 at 17:08

They are both Dumbasses. It is widely known that Red P is illegal to purchase in the US. They sold it to people int eh US anyway.

Joe

[Edited on 9-9-2007 by joeflsts]

Sauron - 8-9-2007 at 20:06

The "defense" of ignorance of red P's application to methamphetamine production, falls apart as they had, we are told, information about such processes in their office.

So much for the "we were selling chemicals for fireworks" idea.

The attempted variation on the "CIA defense" (we were helping to track terrorists") is also lame as all it does is make them self described police informers.

Obviously, by that logic, they ought to have been ratting their customers out to the DEA station in UK, in which case they would hardly be in this pickle today - would they?

jim20/20 - 17-9-2007 at 13:42

Quote:

Originally posted by joeflsts
They are both Dumbasses. It is widely known that Red P is illegal to purchase in the US. They sold it to people int eh US anyway.

Joe

[Edited on 9-9-2007 by joeflsts]

illegal to purchase in the us

as i understand it it can be bought if the buyer has been authorized by the dea to do so
the responsibility lies with the buyer since those trade restrictions are applicable on us soil only

the seller was nevber selling in the us or im sure that would have been mentioned

2sauron
big name chemical companies are expected to rat out their customers
he was trying to look like a pro i guess

it could be argued that the pharmacists could be equally guilty of conspiracy for even selling the cold medications at all

Quote:

The Arkansas Meth Suit: Meet The Lawyers
August 2nd, 2007 3:06 pm By Ed Silverman

The litigation, which was filed last March against Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, Perrigo and others, blames drugmakers for selling too many products containing ephedrine and pseudoephedrine. As a result, a bunch of Arkansas counties say the drugmakers should have known their meds were being used to produce methamphetamine.

“We feel that the pharmaceutical companies were putting more product on the market, than what the market called for,” Independence County Judge Bill Hicks tells a KAIT reporter. Hicks worked with a group of attorneys and county leaders to come up with a plan of action. “We didn’t just wake up overnight and say, let’s go after the big money. Let’s go after the big people. We saw a problem and we are trying to fix it.”

You can watch the 4-and-a-half minute report here and meet a couple of the lawyers who have succeeded in getting nearly two dozen Arkansas counties to work together. Interestingly, the report features a lot of melodramatic music, and doesn’t include any comment from the pharmaceutical industry.

http://www.pharmalot.com/2007/08/the-arkansas-meth-suit-meet...

Sauron - 17-9-2007 at 20:25

Sorry, you are wrong. Under the various methamphetamine control acts the burden is squarely on the seller to verify that the buyer is legitimate, and in case of doubt to notify DEA.

For a List One chemical like red P the buyer is required to produce his DEA registration document.

The penalties imposed on US lab suppliers for failing to be diligent are draconian. ENORMOUS fines and jail sentences.

Sellers outside of the US are not bound to the reporting requirements but they most certainly are prohibited from selling into the US as this prosecution amply demonstrates.

Furthermore, according to published information these sellers possessed details of red P's use in reduction of ephedrine/pseudoephedrine to amphetamines and allegedly discussed same with customers. I suspect this speaks to the conspiracy charges. Those are crimes in UK as well as US and thus enable extradition.

This is not a case of an innocent seller of pyrotechnic materials, but a profiteering repack shop that knew what red P was being used for and sold large quantities at enormous profit anyway. I say, fuck 'em. I hope the same happens to all who aid, abet, support and supply drug cooks, and I trust this has sent a strong signal to chemical sellers outside of the US not to sell restricted chemicals into the US and think they can scoff at US laws from their safe havens. There are NO safe havens.

I'm sad I can't buy red phosphorus for my own legitimate chemical work but, I blame the drug cooks for that state of affairs.

[Edited on 18-9-2007 by Sauron]

Slimz - 18-9-2007 at 08:37

there are ways to get red P

Sauron - 18-9-2007 at 08:42

Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs, son.

jim20/20 - 18-9-2007 at 11:16

you are comparing apples with oranges
they were in the uk not the us
the methamphetamine control acts are not part of uk law
they are still in the uk

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
Sellers outside of the US are not bound to the reporting requirements but they most certainly are prohibited from selling into the US as this prosecution amply demonstrates.

this prosecution demonstrates nothing of the sort
and they are still suspects at this stage

Quote:

Furthermore, according to published information these sellers possessed details of red P's use in reduction of ephedrine/pseudoephedrine to amphetamines

so it was said in a press report
assuming thats accurate you don't know how it got there any more than i

Quote:

and allegedly discussed same with customers.

first ive heard of it
whats your source

Quote:

I suspect this speaks to the conspiracy charges. Those are crimes in UK as well as US and thus enable extradition.

the 2003 us-uk extradition treaty no longer requires the us authorities to make a prima facie case in order to have suspects removed to the us
its seems to me the conspiracy charge is an effective bypass of due process
apparently none of the other 81 counts are extraditable

the scottish judge should take a stand and tell the us authorities to go fuck themselves for abusing a treaty that was supposedly amended to counter the threat from terrorism
maybe even invoke the human rights act

Sauron - 18-9-2007 at 16:43

Easy to tell what side of this controversy jim20/20 is on

Regurgitating my own statements with qualifications that I made myself is not responding to those staements.

@jim20/20 everything I "know" about this case I read in this thread or in press accounts linked to from this thread. I have no othe "sources".

jim20/20 - 19-9-2007 at 12:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
Easy to tell what side of this controversy jim20/20 is on

im not on the side of the abuse of due process
im not on the side of the us authorities having free rein
to deprive someone in another country of their liberty on the
basis of an accusation and without providing any evidence

in relation to the thread i started now in detritus

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
I agree with chromium. This is a non-topic. No one is discomfitted by this reg except perhaps a few tweakers in UK. Certainly no amateur chemists.

Good call, Dayster!

the policy of the uk authorities to control the precursor rather than the reagents most commonly used in meth production is of direct importance to uk amateur chemists since they will probably continue to be able to acquire chemicals denied to you

chromium - 19-9-2007 at 12:34

Quote:

Originally posted by jim20/20
the policy of the uk authorities to control the precursor rather than the reagents most commonly used in meth production is of direct importance to uk amateur chemists since they will probably continue to be able to acquire chemicals denied to you

Unfortunately there have been cases in UK where homes are raided for buying RP and iodine and In US, its not that hard to buy RP as this KNO3 case clearly shows. Problem is the same in both countries - you can get into big trouble if you buy it. I do not see any reason to belive that after controlling ephedrine controlls on phosphorus and iodine are relaxed.

Laws

MadHatter - 19-9-2007 at 13:47

There are no U.S. federal laws prohibiting the possession of List I or List II chemicals that
I can find in CFR 21(as of April 1, 2007). There are laws requiring the recording of the
transaction above the threshold amounts. BTW, there are no threshold amounts for:

(i) Ephedrine, its salts, optical isomers and salts of optical isomers
(ii) Red phosphorus
(iii) White phosphorus (Other names: Yellow Phosphorus)
(iv) Hypophosphorous acid and its salts
(v) gamma-Butyrolactone (Other names include: GBL; Dihydro-2(3H)-
furanone; 1,2-Butanolide; 1,4-Butanolide; 4-Hydroxybutanoic acid
lactone; gamma-hydroxybutyric acid lactone)

I wonder how black phosphorus fits into the requirements ?

Now some states make the possession of some, or any, precursors illegal. That we know.

As for going after the drug companies, that Arkansas lawsuit is trying to use the "sue the 3rd
party" standard that was tried with gun makers. The suit might have about as much luck
because most of the gun lawsuits were thrown out of court.

[Edited on 2007/9/19 by MadHatter]

Sauron - 19-9-2007 at 15:52

@jim20/20, I know of a lot of US citizens who have been for decades harassed, indicted, prosecuted and convicted in the US at the behest of the UK for the 'crime' of raising money from their fellow Americans for something called NORAID, the Sinn Fein charity.

So the sword cuts both ways. When the UK govt wants its back scratched, the US obliges, and vice versa.

and No, I am NOT a supporter of the IRA!

jim20/20 - 20-9-2007 at 12:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
@jim20/20, I know of a lot of US citizens who have been for decades harassed, indicted, prosecuted and convicted in the US at the behest of the UK for the 'crime' of raising money from their fellow Americans for something called NORAID, the Sinn Fein charity.

harassed, indicted, prosecuted and convicted in the us

if the operators of this company were being tried in the uk i would have no problem with it at all
there is a case to be answered
they thought they were in a neat little legal loophole
i very much doubt that

but they have no chance in the us imho

Quote:

Originally posted by chromium
Unfortunately there have been cases in UK where homes are raided for buying RP and iodine and In US, its not that hard to buy RP as this KNO3 case clearly shows. Problem is the same in both countries - you can get into big trouble if you buy it. I do not see any reason to belive that after controlling ephedrine controlls on phosphorus and iodine are relaxed.

maybe uk customers of kno3 have been raided sure
pretty dumb to buy from them in the first place

i disagree with your last point
the uk has gone far further than the us by limiting sales to a maximum of
760 mg per sale and one sale per customer
not only that but they have the option to make it prescription
only by 2009 or before if necessary
the much looser limits in the us almost wiped out meth
labs in some places so it obviously works
but because different states have different
controls the problem relocates to wherever is most favorable
the difference in the uk is that the mhra policy applies
everywhere and since there is no meth lab problem yet
the stable door is closed

ephedrine and pseudoephedrine are the weak link for the meth
cook

i still think those controls are probably good for uk amateur chemists

woelen - 20-9-2007 at 14:21

In the Netherlands, ephedrine cannot be purchased legally. There are some smartshops (kind of shop, where different kinds of drugs are sold, many of them from natural sources), which seem to sell this stuff to the general public, but in the standard pharmacies and drugstores, this cannot be purchased without prescription.

Because of the lack of ephedrine and similar related compounds, there also is not much value for iodine and red P in the Netherlands for the meth cooks. So, such regulations definitely work and are good for the home chemist. It would be really good if the USA also put stronger regulations on the real drugs-precursors and not on all kinds of 'helper-chemicals', which have numerous other uses outside the drugs scene. Other chemicals, prohibited in the Netherlands are sassafras, gamma hydroxy butiric acid and direct precursors and a few more, but the list only contains chemicals, which the average amateur chemist does not need for his experiments.

[Edited on 20-9-07 by woelen]

chromium - 20-9-2007 at 22:54

Of course it would be good for amateur chemists if ephedrine is controlled instead of RP and iodine but i do not have any reason to belive that those states which already have controlls on RP and iodine intend to abandon them even if ephedrine is made completely unavailable. Modern fashion is such that new controlls are placed every day to something (for our safety, of course) but i can not remember when single thing that was once forbidden is let free again.

In fact controlls on red phosphorus and iodine are so illogical that it has always made me think that there are actually other affairs instead of drug problem.

[Edited on 21-9-2007 by chromium]

Sauron - 20-9-2007 at 23:08

The governments want RP out of the way so that terrorists will have more difficulty making PCl3, PCl5, POCl3 and their derivaties such as irimethyl and triethyl phosphite, hence methyldialkyl phosphonates, also methyldichlorophosphine oxide. All of these speak directly to GA, GB, GD etc.

There are already a few gaps in this coverage. But, all of the substances I mentioned are CWC and Australia Group listed, which mandates intergovernment communication about their shipments, and licensing of large quantities. Many countries have gone further, and require permits for import of even small quantities. That includes RP. But not I2, and so the motivation is not ephedrine reduction, despite the fact that there is a huge meth problem here and the origin of the ma huang plant is next door in Yunnan, China. So logically the sole concern about RP here is CW related.

Eclectic - 21-9-2007 at 13:25

But you assume the regulations are reasonable and logical! How logical is it to believe that someone who could fabricate a chemical weapon without killing themselves and their neighbors could not make WHATEVER they need from anything that contains the needed elements?

Sauron - 21-9-2007 at 15:48

Indeed, but they want to make things as difficult as possible, to place more hurdles in the path. Remember that internationally they (the governments who have signed CWC) have only agreed to controls on a small number of chemicals, and then really only in large quantities. The Australia Group countries want the list expanded.

I think the Aum incident (Tokyo subway sarin) scared them all badly. Not rational, as it was ineffectual, but there you are.

For decades, those of us who were sounding the alarm about terrorists and CBW/NBC - primarily Dr Joe Douglass of Edgewood, Neil Livingstone, Jack McGeorge and myself - were scoffed at by the rest of the intelligence community. (See the book "The Poor Man's Atom Bomb" by Douglass and Livinstone.)

But not after the Aum.

And that wasn't even a matter of terrorism, in any accepted strict definition of terrorism. Still, it was a wake up call for the policy makers, and now they have overreacted.

You are correct that the tactics employed by these governments are not always logical, rational, reasonable, or even effective. You are preaching to the choir about that. I am the biggest critic of the various lists and schedules and regimes. It does not work - demonstrably is a failure - for drug enforcement, where it is pretty much busywork. So how can it be expected to work for chemical terror?

Also it is important to remember that proposals for G to G controls on chemical warfare have existed ever since WWI and that is more than 90 years. The Aum case was what galvanized those perennial proposals. The Clintons shoved them through just before leaving office. (So you can imagine what the Clintons might do if the Hill & Bill Show gets back in.)

jim20/20 - 25-11-2007 at 12:58

looks like this pair are about to find out their fate

someone must have thought this was such a good business idea they decided to copy it but theyve gone one step further

internationally controlled list 1 precursors for sale as well
genius

so what is it scam or slow train wreck

Magpie - 25-11-2007 at 14:04

Quote:

someone must have thought this was such a good business idea they decided to copy it but theyve gone one step further

This is unbelievable. These people either have a deathwish or are just terribly stupid. Or perhaps LE is missing Kno3 so much that they set up their own storefront.

evil_lurker - 25-11-2007 at 14:27

Dammit, that is a honey trap for bees if I ever seen one... although I wouldn't mind having some lithium metal and RP for expirementation...

Besides phosphorous acid works much better for cooking meth than RP/I anyways.

woelen - 25-11-2007 at 14:33

This source for chemicals does not look good. A very strange assortment (contains a few purely drug-related and many secondary stuff, which is helpful in drugs-manufacture), some chems which could be useful in pyrotechnics or general chemistry. I have the impression that these pyro-related chems are just there to cover up their ass a little bit, so that they do not sell to the drugs-manufacturing scene exclusively.

The prices also are insane

. A Mg-ribbon 25 grams package for almost GBP 50 (=EUR 75, almost $100) is really insane. These rolls of Mg are offered on eBay for 20% of this price and even that already is a tad expensive.

Why would a home chemist or a school want ephedrine or saffrole? I really think that they go two steps too far with that kind of chems. Even in countries with much more relaxed rules on chemicals (compared to the USA with their listed chems), the purchase of saffrole and ephedrine from this source would raise some flags.

I did some research after this name. The website seems to be lying. They are talking about 2005 - 2007 as the period in which they shipped orders. The domainname, however, was registered at June 29, 2007 and it probably has become active at July 17, 2007.

Whether this is a honeypot or not, I am not sure about that. The domainname is registered in Germany by Key-Systems GmbH. The person, who registered this domain has given this address:

3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester
M40 8BB
GB

So, no connections to the USA, where this kind of things is highly illegal.

Here follows the dump of the WHOIS lookup I did:

Domain name:
thechemicalcloset.co.uk

Registrant:
The Chemical Closet

Registrant type:
Unknown

Registrant's address:
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester
M40 8BB
GB

Registrar:
Key-Systems GmbH [Tag = KEY-SYSTEMS-DE]
URL: http://www.Key-Systems.net

Relevant dates:
Registered on: 29-Jun-2007
Renewal date: 29-Jun-2009
Last updated: 17-Jul-2007

Registration status:
Registered until renewal date.

Name servers:
ns57.domaincontrol.com
ns58.domaincontrol.com

WHOIS lookup made at 22:38:14 25-Nov-2007

[Edited on 25-11-07 by woelen]

Sauron - 25-11-2007 at 22:09

Very likely the German company is the host provider.

You might do a google on them; if they are a web hosting service they will surely have a site of their own.

evil_lurker - 26-11-2007 at 00:21

I know one thing, if I lived in the USA, I would not touch that company with a 100 meter cattle prod.

Sauron - 26-11-2007 at 03:51

Does the ordering of chemicals from abroad (meaning outside YSA) make any sense other than through normal commercial importer channel?

I mean, someone wordering any chemical from outside USA is going to pay majopr shipping costs, and have to clear US Customs, if the shipment has a CIF over $200 that means a formal entry (requiring a customs broker). You might short circuit some of that by using a courier service but then you have shifted the overhead from one pocket to the other because those guys are not cheap and you probably have to have the shipper lie to them to carry chemicals at all.

To me it makes no sense.

Then again I haven't lived in USA for going on 20 years so WTF do I know?

Phosphor-ing - 26-11-2007 at 06:45

Stupid people who give chemistry a bad name will order from this place, raise red flags, and be promptly removed from society. I mean how blatant do you have to be to carry multiple list 1 chemicals, and almost everything else is list 2!

do not pass go do not collect 200 pounds

jim20/20 - 26-11-2007 at 11:59

Quote:

Originally posted by evil_lurker
I know one thing, if I lived in the USA, I would not touch that company with a 100 meter cattle prod.

i wouldnt touch it no matter were i lived

within uk chemical companies cant sell and perhaps even store list 1s without a license

you need a license to buy and they cant sell to anyone who doesnt have a license

and if they sell to outside eu they have to be labelled in big fat letters #drug precursor# so customs can see them a mile of

i dont think its bacon either though

it smells of scam or kno3 ll

chemnut - 26-11-2007 at 19:15

thechemikalcloset.co.uk appears to be inoperable.

[Edited on 27-11-2007 by chemnut]

undead_alchemist - 27-11-2007 at 06:17

That place smells too much like a trap. even look at the prices for glassware.
Looks as if they have taken stock photos from Corning's website.

Even here in Canada, you need to get a license from Health Canada for any List 1 / Class A Chemicals.
Thats for buying, selling, importing, exporting, manufacture, and need an approved stored area as well.

MagicJigPipe - 27-11-2007 at 21:23

God damnit I hate this irrational "drug chemical" paranoia. What the fuck about alcohol? I'm sure it destroys way more lives than methamphetamine ever will (I hate both substances). So, why not make anything directly used in the manufacture of EtOH illegal? Aw, who am I kidding, we all know why. It's just insane.

This may be irrational hatred of alcohol because I have several friends who have departed this life because of it. More than people who have done so because of methamphetamine. But I just can't help it.

pantone159 - 27-11-2007 at 21:53

That site looks really difficult to believe.

After all the trouble the KNO3 owners got into, why would anybody start a similar store, in the UK, and even much more blatant???

A scam is what I would bet on.

MagicJigPipe - 28-11-2007 at 14:31

Yes, for some reason you can always rely on the govt (esp UK an US) to come up with new forms of attempted entrapment. Unless your talking about non-govt. scam then, of course it's possible.

JohnWW - 28-11-2007 at 17:43

"Entrapment", as defined in Court decisions, occurs only either: when a Pig in disguise actively solicits contraband like drugs or guns or porn or (where still illegal) prostitution from a person who would not otherwise attempt to procure and then possess the stuff for the purposes of resale; or when a Pig in disguise possesses (or claims to possess) and actively tries to sell contraband like drugs or guns or porn or (where still illegal) prostitution to unsuspecting persons who would not otherwise buy the stuff if it were not for the Pig's approach. The idea for committing a crime thus has to come from a corrupt Pig, for the defense to hold. The defense of entrapment in these circumstances has been established in the U$A for many years, and was established in my country from those U$ decisions in a notable case here, believed to involve drugs, about 25 or 30 years ago.

Sauron - 28-11-2007 at 19:35

Entrapment is not legally limited to the sorts of cases JohnWW mentions, but theoretically could take place in any sort of case. Entrapment arises when a criminal conspiracy is initiated by an undercover police officer (or federal agent) if and only if the other party or parties were not otherwise inclined to commit such an offense.

In other words, if the accused is someone with a history of armed robbery, then that accused cannot argue entrapment if the police put in an undercover agent who proposes a robbery and then arrests his "partners".

So in the case of a kno3-like distance seller of drug precursors, any buyer who was actually purchasing such precursors for the purpose of making drugs, could not succesfully argue entrapment under the law.

If the autorities in the UK set up a dummy company to sell drug precursors, the main purpose might not be prosecution, because after all, most of the buyers will be outside of the UK won't they? And in some instances buyers in the UK would have no problem anyway because some chemicals (like red P) are not illegal to sell or buy in UK (or so we are told.)

No, the purpose is more likely to be police intelligence-gathering about the buyers.

Of course it is possible that the dummy company was set up not by the UK authorities but by the DEA (or even DHS) or that this is a bilateral, cooperative sting operation by both nations.

jim20/20 - 29-11-2007 at 15:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Sauron
No, the purpose is more likely to be police intelligence-gathering about the buyers.

Of course it is possible that the dummy company was set up not by the UK authorities but by the DEA (or even DHS) or that this is a bilateral, cooperative sting operation by both nations.

too complicated

kno3 were dumb enough to sell restricted chems to places they shouldnt have and plenty customers in those places were dumb enough to buy

either that is happening again which is unlikely but its always possible or someone is fishing for suckers

who are you going to complain to when that bottle of list 1 precursor never arrives

ever heard of mbetech

Quote:

In the spring of 2001, MBEtech.net, based in the United States, closed down their business and let their domain name expire. In the fall of 2001 the domain name was purchased by someone in Wales who put up a catalog containing nearly identical items to those previously carried by the company. They failed to reply to email inquiries from several people asking whether it was the same company. Speculation is that this is NOT the same company and that the new owner bought the domain name in order to get people to send them money in the mail. They take only cash or money orders. We received a specific complaint in July 2002 from an individual who placed an order, sent payment, and has received no response from the company (to either emails or physical letters) in 6 weeks.

i took this from erowid but i remember it at the time
have a look on archiveorg

joeflsts - 29-11-2007 at 16:38

I love the "entrapment" discussion to buying list 1 chemicals to make drugs. It's pretty simple folks, if you buy list 1 items without obtaining the proper documentation and you make illegal substances you broke the law. The only real entrapment is self inflicted which is translated into stupid.

Joe

Sauron - 30-11-2007 at 03:05

Sometimes the law is an ass.

These lists are often arbitrary. Many listed chemicals have numerous legitimate uses, and many others remain listed long after the drugs they were used for have passed from fashion.

The entire philosphy of interdicting precursors is as ill considered as it in ineffectual. But then so is the entire "war on drugs". My attitude about drugs is well known, but, even an anti-drug individual like me must see that the WOD has long been a dismal defeat and is now an expensive boondoggle.

joeflsts - 30-11-2007 at 14:59

I don't disagree with you. However, my point was simple if you have list 1 and you're making illegal substances there is no gray area.

Joe

pantone159 - 30-11-2007 at 17:07

I get some different whois results than woelen did.
http://whois.domaintools.com/thechemicalcloset.com

EDIT: I just realized I checked the .com, not .co.uk which is why the data is different. The two websites look identical, and have the same IP.

I see it registered via GoDaddy, and have the following contact info:

Porter, James
The Chemical Closet
3 Sawley Road
Greater Manchester, Manchester M40 8BB
United Kingdom
447742129481 Fax --

Email: james.porterthe3rd@yahoo.co.uk

I really think this has to be a scam. Sucker sends them money, and never gets the List I chems because they don't exist in the first place. Who are you going to complain to?

[Edited on 30-11-2007 by pantone159]

JohnWW - 30-11-2007 at 19:58

You could complain ANONYMOUSLY to the Manchester Pigs, I suppose. It would have to be done through an anonymous email service in a country other than the U.K., in which British search warrants cannot be enforced, e.g. fastmail.fm, which is located in the Federated States Of Micronesia. Or through an anonymous web-surfing site.

jim20/20 - 1-12-2007 at 14:17

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnWW
You could complain ANONYMOUSLY to the Manchester Pigs, I suppose.

do you mean try to trigger an investigation
i think a company offering list 1s is probably already under investigation

but if you have to complain anonymously then you also cant get your money back

this reminds me of a funny line from a movie

Quote:

Listen to this one: You open a company called the Arse Tickler's Faggots Fan Club. You take out an advert in the back page of some gay mag, advertising the latest in arse-intruding dildos, you sell it with, I dunno, "does what no other dildo can do until now", "the latest and greatest in sexual technology", "guaranteed results or your money back", all that bollocks. Now these dils cost twenty-five quid a pop - as a snip for the amount of pleasure they're gonna give the recipients. But they send their cheques to the other company name, nothing offensive, er, Bobbie's Bits or something, for twenty-five quid. You take that twenty-five quid, you stick it in the bank until it clears. Now this is the smart bit - you send back the cheque for twenty-five pound from the other company name, "Arse Tickler's Faggots Fan Club", saying we're sorry, we couldn't get the supplies from America because they ran out of stock. Now you see how many people cash that cheque - not a single soul, because who wants their bank manager to know they tickle arse when they're not paying cheques?

-from lock stock and 2 smoking barrels

Scam

MadHatter - 1-12-2007 at 22:06

Jim, a more sinister scam was actually done years ago. The difference is the group
would send the check back with a NAMBLA logo. That is the North American Man Boy
Love Association. Now how many people will actually tender that check at their bank ?
Those scam artists need to be SHOT !

The_Davster - 2-12-2007 at 19:50

This seemed relavent to why the US was able to 'extradite' the owners of KNO3.com
Scary, although it is the media, so who knows the real story.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/...

[Edited on 2-12-2007 by The_Davster]

Sauron - 2-12-2007 at 22:18

The Dayster, that url goes nowhere, pls repair it.

MadHatter, that begs the question of whether such checks would clear if anyone had the guts to try to clear them. Since they were issued by thieves, the likely answer is: not.

MagicJigPipe - 6-12-2007 at 01:48

Ok, I know that the kno3 thing was not legally entrapment. When I mentioned entrapment I meant my interpretation of the word (which is much more broad) not the legal definition. Sorry for not making that clear.

its a sting

chemnut - 26-1-2008 at 21:42

Brian Howes posted pdf of the federal indictment. Most interesting was the fake name used by Arizona detective.. James Porter,, which is also name of registree for www.thechemicalcloset.uk.co and the site traces to IP in Arizona.

You do the math....

MagicJigPipe - 27-1-2008 at 18:59

www.thechemicalcloset.uk.co seems to be no more.

chemoleo - 27-1-2008 at 21:24

Well I must say, anyone selling ephedrine hydrochloride 500 g for 200$ is looking for trouble (which means the site is online btw)
It is a shame that these phony businesses sell chemicals to the supposed main consumer base, which are 'hobbyists and amateurs', where they show ephedrine HCl right on the front page, the first chemical out of all of them ....
It taints the true hobbyist, and makes all those well-meaning individuals interested solely in amateur chemistry look like drug cooks, every single one of them, and will undoubtedly only spell trouble for future years to come. Self interest I know....

Plus they can't spell, how can you trust the content?

MagicJigPipe - 28-1-2008 at 00:01

I think it could be a sting operation and the mispellings could be an attempt to look "kewl" in order to appeal to the average meth cook. Just check out the amphetamines (or any other section, really) of Wetdreams and you'll see what I mean.

No legitimate business would risk persecution by selling illegal amounts of ephedrine like that. Not to mention how blatant they seem to be about it.

EDIT
I see. Typing the address directly doesn't work for me, however clicking a link (google) does. Strange.

[Edited on 28-1-2008 by MagicJigPipe]

0U812 - 29-1-2008 at 20:16

Dont be so sure about the IP lookup

me agree with the undead_alchemist....i checked out kno3.com prior to ordering and found their IP address was in Florida. My chems for sure came from England though.

woelen - 30-1-2008 at 10:21

Quote:

Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
I see. Typing the address directly doesn't work for me, however clicking a link (google) does. Strange.

You typed the address ending in uk.co, it must be ending in co.uk.

0U812 - 5-2-2008 at 15:19

www.thechemicalcloset.co.uk worked for me! order of RP&E arrived two days ago with no one watching round the corner (that i know of). Think i'll have it sent to grandmas next time just in case!!!

MagicJigPipe - 5-2-2008 at 23:35

Argghhh... You've got to be kidding me. I assume "E" means ephedrine HCl. Buying red phosphorus and ephedrine from the same place (or at all, even if it's not that site) is just dumb. Period.

woelen - 6-2-2008 at 03:49

This company really makes me sad. It is very harmful for the case of the legit home chemist. Look at the top 10 of sold items:

1. ephedrine 100 g
2. red P 250 g
3. red P 500 g
4. ephedrine 500 g
5. red P 100 g
6. iodine 50 g
7. iodine 100 g
8 . iodine xxx g
9 and further: other chemicals

They also sell some pyro stuff like KClO4, KClO3, KNO3 and some other common oxidizers, and stuff like NaOH and KOH. I have the impression that they only have those chems in stock in order to make it seem a little bit more believable that they are geared towards hobbyists. But given their selling profile, I think that their customers mainly are cooks. I would not dare buying a gram of those people.

For me, buying red P is not a problem (I also purchased some red P, from a German hobby supplier, who however does not sell ephedrine), but the combo with ephedrine is very suspicious. What the hell would a legit home chemist want to do with ephedrine?

YT2095 - 6-2-2008 at 05:05

Quote:

Originally posted by woelen
What the hell would a legit home chemist want to do with ephedrine?

non at all unless you kept certain insect, spider, scorpions or snakes.
and even then you can buy Epi-pens that are Pharma grade pre-loaded antidotes.
most of the time a simple COX-2 inhibitor will do the job anyway.

I`m quite astonished that they actually Sell adrenaline, it`s almost Begging for trouble!

quicksilver - 6-2-2008 at 08:22

Quote:

Originally posted by 0U812
Think i'll have it sent to grandmas next time just in case!!!

Nice going there chief....On the seal of the World Federation of Cooks (in Latin) is the following:

~-=Ethics, Integrity, & Compassion for thy fellows=-~

JohnWW - 6-2-2008 at 13:48

Ephedrine and pseudoephedrine are used as decongestants, so if you suffer from continual post-nasal drip, bronchitis, a cold, or 'flu, or cystic fibrosis, you would have an excuse to buy it.

0U812 - 6-2-2008 at 15:19

Hey woelen, you shoudnt smoke your own shit, that stuffs legal in the U.K. and I bet the company is making a killing. Its all about the mighty dollar.

microcosmicus - 6-2-2008 at 17:24

Sure, the stuff in their catalog may all be legal in the U.K., but when I had a look
at their online catalog, the selection of chemicals really makes me wonder.
The problem I see is not so much that they offer ephedrine or saffrole, but
that they don't list any of the usual chemicals like the following:

acetic acid
benzoic acid
citric acid
methanol
copper sulphate
cobalt chloride
phosphoric acid
sodium sulfide
sodium bisulfite
sulphuric acid
etc, etc. etc.

Were they a legitimate chemical supplier, I would expect to see
chemicals like these in the catalog. It would be different if they
had an extensive catalog which had all the usual chemicals and
somewhere tucked in there were a few items like ephedrine and
saffrole. In that context, it would look OK with me. Alright, maybe
they only care about exotic, hard to find chemicals as per their blurb.
Well then why don't they have stuff like the following in the catalog?:

Yttrium chloride
Selenium
Buckyballs
Sodium Xenate
etc.

As it stands there is nothing unusual about 90% of the stuff in their
catalogue (Xylene, hydrochloric acid, sodium chloride) and the only
reason that any of it might be rare is because of its use by meth cooks.

Sure, while any particular item they sell has all sorts of legitimate uses,
the particular combination which constitutes their catalog only makes sense
if their primary business is supplying drug cooks. The line "Whether you're
an individual, hobbyist, school, amateur chemist, farmer or a business we can
supply what you need." really falls flat on its face when one notes that they
do not carry most of the items that someone might usually want for a home
or school or industrial lab.

Yes, OU812, it is all about the almighty pound sterling and the company is
likely making a killing. (Of course, pretty much the same could be said
about Dow, DuPont or most any other company.) Just let's be clear what
business they're in and who is their customer base.

pantone159 - 6-2-2008 at 19:33

Quote:

Originally posted by 0U812
I bet the company is making a killing.

I bet the company is a sting.

joeflsts - 7-2-2008 at 05:28

Quote:

Originally posted by pantone159

Quote:

Originally posted by 0U812
I bet the company is making a killing.

I bet the company is a sting.

Agreed - I see post after post on this forum crying about the harsh tactics of LEO's and seldom do people mention the real reason we have a hard time sourcing items is because of "retail" sites like this one and the people that buy from them and sell illegal materials.

Joe

quicksilver - 7-2-2008 at 07:07

Whether it's legal or illegal; a sting or a sleaze, the bottom line is that it's about cooking crap. And cooks hurt the public and the hobbyist. Cooks have done more to fuck up this hobby than anything else imaginable.

Pages: 1 2

Kno3.com

Laws

do not pass go do not collect 200 pounds

Scam

recent post from Brian Howes

its a sting