Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Help Buying Platinum Leaf

careysub - 14-11-2016 at 17:22

I would like to acquire platinum, 24 K gold, and palladium leaf for my element collection. Gilding a wood square with leaf is a good cheap way to show what a large piece to the material looks like, without having to spend the many $ for an actual big piece.

The is a supplier I know of that offers these items in 5 leaf booklets, at a reasonable price:
http://www.goldleafsupplies.co.uk/acatalog/Platinum_Leaf.htm...

Problem is, they don't do business with the U.S., it is Europe only (although mailing precious metal leaf booklets does not seem to present any sort of problem).

I did find a place in Australia that also offers these leafs, and will ship to the U.S., but only in 25 leaf booklets for more money than I care to spend, especially since I only need one of each.

If someone in Europe is willing to help me buy some precious metal leaf (of course I will cover all costs in advance), I will happily prepare some display specimens for them at no cost.

[Edited on 15-11-2016 by careysub]

[Edited on 15-11-2016 by careysub]

j_sum1 - 14-11-2016 at 17:28

That UK supplier was the one I was going to recommend but I forgot that they don't do international.
Gold from Thailand on eBay is pretty easy. Pt is a bit trickier.

There might be some interest in an aussie consortium. All we would need is three more people who want five leaves -- I could organise purchase, division and distribution of a 25 pack. I would be happy to have five leaves myself. Do you want to give details of the aussie supplier you located?

careysub - 14-11-2016 at 17:50

Hmm... I haven't called up the Australian supplier yet, I'll keep trying, but I found a U.S. supplier, but same problem - only 25 sheet books.

http://letterheadsignsupply.com/

Platinum is $133.00, 24 K gold $52 and palladium $44 (and there is tax).

Since this is U.S., I can act as the coordinator/buyer if anyone wants to go in on some precious metal leaf.

I think the site I was looking at might have been:
http://www.goldleaf.com.au/
but they don't have platinum leaf listed now.

[Edited on 15-11-2016 by careysub]

j_sum1 - 14-11-2016 at 18:04

That supplier is a bit more pricey than the UK one as I recall. It will be worth shopping around.
But it is the sort of thing for which I think a group purchase is worthwhile.
Count me in if it is a happening thing.

Maroboduus - 14-11-2016 at 19:53

@carreysub: Have you dealt with gold leaf before?

It is INCREDIBLY thin. The stuff virtually comes apart when you apply it.

Anyway, I've checked my leaf supply and the best I've been able to find is 23K.

Anyway, if that's good enough I'll send you 100 sheets to distribute. That's 4 packets. (My packets are 25)

The damn stuff is terrible to work with, and I'm willing to bet 1/2 the people who get any will be disappointed when they try to apply it to anything.

For that reason I'll send the 100 sheets gratis. You get to split it up.

I'm offering you extra because I don't want to be the gold leaf guy. You're here in the good old USA, so it's easy for me to send it to you.



[Edited on 15-11-2016 by Maroboduus]

careysub - 14-11-2016 at 20:24

Quote: Originally posted by Maroboduus  
@carreysub: Have you dealt with gold leaf before?

It is INCREDIBLY thin. The stuff virtually comes apart when you apply it.

Anyway, I've checked my leaf supply and the best I've been able to find is 23K.

Anyway, if that's good enough I'll send you 100 sheets to distribute. That's 4 packets. (My packets are 25)

The damn stuff is terrible to work with, and I'm willing to bet 1/2 the people who get any will be disappointed when they try to apply it to anything.

For that reason I'll send the 100 sheets gratis. You get to split it up.

I'm offering you extra because I don't want to be the gold leaf guy. You're here in the good old USA, so it's easy for me to send it to you.


[Edited on 15-11-2016 by Maroboduus]


I have a little experience with gold leaf - making electroscopes for example.

What you want to do is have transfer leaf and apply it directly to suitably tacky gilding size so that it goes directly from the support paper to the final surface, which is what I want to do to make an element display.

I haven't done that yet myself, but I expect I can get the hang of it pretty quickly. Lots of people do burnishing with leaf successfully.

Gold leaf is easy to get, even 24 K leaf is not that rare. Platinum and palladium leaf, much harder.

[Edited on 15-11-2016 by careysub]

Maroboduus - 14-11-2016 at 20:36

Yes, I have actually done considerable gold leafing myself.

I was not aware that gold leaf is easy to get free. Even 23K leaf.

But you're obviously the expert here.

j_sum1 - 14-11-2016 at 21:09

Let's see if I have this right Maroboduus. You are giving away about a hundred bucks of gold leaf (give or take depending on size and retail value). That is awfully generous.
I have a small amount myself and I agree that it is umm... problematic to work with. I need to get a decent brush. My plan is to cast a nice little ingot of lead and gild it. And then set it is some resin. It's no philosopher's stone but I bet it will fool a few people.

Pt and Pd would be really nice to have and I have thought for a while that leaf would be a good way to show it in the element collection. But pricey and difficult to get. Maybe we can get some interest from someone in the UK to buy and distribute.
Sulaiman??


[edit] spelling

[Edited on 15-11-2016 by j_sum1]

adk - 14-11-2016 at 22:28

It's pretty expensive from chemical suppliers:
https://www.alfa.com/en/catalog/011510/
https://www.alfa.com/en/catalog/012868/

eek...

Who is the Australian supplier? I can find a use for some if it's not too much more than buying actual Platinum metal bars.

Sulaiman - 15-11-2016 at 02:22

just saw my name ...
I would not mind doing a bulk purchase
but I find it hard to believe that ANYTHING is cheaper in UK than elsewhere

Following some electrochemistry experiments I have the remains of a booklet of silver foils, also a pita to work with.
Be wary of gold and silver foil via eBay ... counterfeits !

I would like some gold and platinum foil too, not sure why, but I want some.

So, if the cheapest supplier does turn out to be UK based I will help.

j_sum1 - 15-11-2016 at 02:53

Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman  
just saw my name ...
I just saw I misspelled it.
Good thing there is edit.

careysub - 15-11-2016 at 09:10

Not claiming that leaf is cheaper from the UK on a per-leaf basis, it is just if I want a couple I don't want to have to buy 25.

Gold leaf, even 24 K, is easy to get - there a lot of options, and I can find other sources selling small quantities.

Not so palladium and platinum.

So the gold leaf can be left out of this equation, since it is really just the other two that are the problem.

My intended use is absolutely the easiest case: applying to a perfectly flat smooth surface treated with purpose-made sizing, using an actual burnishing brush. I can practice a few times with gold leaf, and I am pretty sure I can get the technique down pat.

I also have lead sheet. If someone would like a piece of fake gold I could burnish that too.

If you want really good fake gold random pieces of tungsten turn up on eBay all the time (tungsten rods are always there). Tungsten carbide rod also, which has about the same density as 14 K gold.

Sulaiman - 15-11-2016 at 10:20

ok, please specify EXACTLY what you want me to order, and I'll order it.

Maroboduus - 15-11-2016 at 11:01

Quote: Originally posted by careysub  


If you want really good fake gold random pieces of tungsten turn up on eBay all the time (tungsten rods are always there). Tungsten carbide rod also, which has about the same density as 14 K gold.


14K gold runs around 14-15 grams/cc. depending on the specific alloy.

Not really close to the density of Tungsten.

Sulaiman - 15-11-2016 at 11:23

Tungsten (19.25 g/cm3) has reportedly been used for fake gold (19.282 g/cm3) (0.166% difference)
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tungsten+gold+b...

[Edited on 16-11-2016 by Sulaiman]

Chemetix - 15-11-2016 at 11:49

I have samples of each of the metals in the form of granules (jewellry supplies for casting) Pt is a piece of bar. I'm sure a granule 2-3 mm dia wouldn't work out to be too much to buy and easy to post.

careysub - 15-11-2016 at 12:00

Quote: Originally posted by Maroboduus  
Quote: Originally posted by careysub  


If you want really good fake gold random pieces of tungsten turn up on eBay all the time (tungsten rods are always there). Tungsten carbide rod also, which has about the same density as 14 K gold.


14K gold runs around 14-15 grams/cc. depending on the specific alloy.

Not really close to the density of Tungsten.



But close to the density of tungsten carbide, 15.6 g/cc, as I said.

careysub - 15-11-2016 at 12:03

Quote: Originally posted by Chemetix  
I have samples of each of the metals in the form of granules (jewellry supplies for casting) Pt is a piece of bar. I'm sure a granule 2-3 mm dia wouldn't work out to be too much to buy and easy to post.


I have a 1 gram platinum and a 1 gram palladium "bar" (more like a wafer) but they are pretty darn small. That is why I want to get leaf to create a much larger surface (8 cm x 8 cm seems standard for leaf) that shows their appearance. You can only see the surface of anything anyway.

Chemetix - 15-11-2016 at 12:54

Gotcha! A bigger area makes a better display.

[Edited on 15-11-2016 by Chemetix]

careysub - 16-11-2016 at 07:42

I follow this philosophy with some other metals in my collection - if it is relatively expensive, I try get thin sheets of it for display, but the leaf takes that to the extreme.

Fleaker - 21-11-2016 at 12:27

Can't you just take a 1 g bar and roll it out to sheet? They roll really really well.

I guess I see it like this:

buy leaf at well over the spot price of the material, apply it to make pretty object with only asthetic value (minimal intrinsic)
vs
spend the same amount of money on 1 g ingots, find someone to roll it out for you and make slightly less pretty object but with intrinsic value (scrap price)

I also like the density of platinum and gold sheet. With leaf, the stuff is so thin you can't feel the weight of it, which in my opinion, is probably the coolest part about those metals.

careysub - 21-11-2016 at 13:42

Quote: Originally posted by Fleaker  
Can't you just take a 1 g bar and roll it out to sheet? They roll really really well.


Perhaps you can, but I suspect my rolling pin is not up to the task.

And, consulting my resume, I fail to find "goldbeater" upon it.

Looks pretty arduous:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldbeating

Swing a 15 hammer for 70*60*4= 16,800 strokes
then an 8 pound hammer for the same number of strokes.

This article about goldbeating gives a clue as to why maybe that British firm does not export to the U.S. It seems that a special license, possessed by only one firm, was needed (at least in 1979) to export gold leaf from the UK, to preserve its gold reserves. Times have changed, and we are discussing other precious metals besides gold, but it may be that similar restrictions are in place for the firm listed up-thread, preventing them from doing business outside the EU.

Attachment: nicholson1979.pdf (3.7MB)
This file has been downloaded 449 times

[Edited on 21-11-2016 by careysub]

vmelkon - 24-11-2016 at 07:46

Quote: Originally posted by careysub  

Swing a 15 hammer for 70*60*4= 16,800 strokes
then an 8 pound hammer for the same number of strokes.


I think it would be better to put the gold in a vacuum chamber, then melt it. You put a graphite sheet above the molten gold. The graphite sheet will be covered with a sheet of gold. Then pull the gold leaf off.

Fleaker - 24-11-2016 at 08:44

Quote: Originally posted by careysub  
Quote: Originally posted by Fleaker  
Can't you just take a 1 g bar and roll it out to sheet? They roll really really well.


Perhaps you can, but I suspect my rolling pin is not up to the task.

And, consulting my resume, I fail to find "goldbeater" upon it.

Looks pretty arduous:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldbeating

Swing a 15 hammer for 70*60*4= 16,800 strokes
then an 8 pound hammer for the same number of strokes.

This article about goldbeating gives a clue as to why maybe that British firm does not export to the U.S. It seems that a special license, possessed by only one firm, was needed (at least in 1979) to export gold leaf from the UK, to preserve its gold reserves. Times have changed, and we are discussing other precious metals besides gold, but it may be that similar restrictions are in place for the firm listed up-thread, preventing them from doing business outside the EU.



[Edited on 21-11-2016 by careysub]



It is arduous. I would think with all that extra frustration/sarcasm you seem to have, hitting something over and over might make you feel better.

In any event, I did not communicate clearly--I suggested taking the pieces you already have, going to a jeweler and having them run it through their rolling mill, doing most of the work for you. It need not be leaf thin to cover a block of wood, and the stuff can be scratched up somewhat with just fingernails once applied. Given that you have 1 g ingots, it would take all of a few minutes to get something that is 8 cm X 8 cm.

I can even roll them out for you if you are in the United States.

Daffodile - 24-11-2016 at 10:57

Could you get some platinum by salvaging old electrophoresis kits? Theyre often thrown out when they crack, get old, etc.