Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Dissolving Neodymium Magnet in .08M HCL solution - Possible?

Dissolving Neodymium Magnet in .08M HCL solution - Possible?

Summa - 15-10-2016 at 03:36

Hey guys,

So lets say I have a few 5mm in diameter, spherical shaped Neodymium magnets. The magnet is an alloy: Nd2Fe14B
Its zinc plated.

I also have simulated "stomach acid" using .08M of HCL solution.

What would if I drop a few of these magnets into the solution?

My prediction:

1) The zinc plated coating on the magent, only a few microns thick, would dissolve within a few minutes.

2) The Neodymium magnet would dissolve give the presence of Iron in the magnet alloy.

Question:

Assuming i leave these magnets in the "stomach acid" for an hour, how much would they dissolve? would mass decrease by half? what about their "pull force" as measured by magnetic flux?

If 1 hour in .08M of HCL solution won't do anything to the magnets, I will forego the experiment.

Unfortunately I need 6-7 weeks to secure samples of zinc coated Neodymium magnets thats why i am turning to the board for help and expediency.

crystal grower - 15-10-2016 at 06:20

These magnets are usually plated with nickel, are you sure your are zinc plated?

Summa - 15-10-2016 at 11:20

Quote: Originally posted by crystal grower

These magnets are usually plated with nickel, are you sure your are zinc plated?

Most definitely. I can get anything almost anything from China:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Countersink-neodymium...

I just need rough estimates of reaction time at .08M. Trying to stimulate teh transit time in the stomach and whether a 5mm spherical Zinc coated will dissolve or not.

Fidelmios - 15-10-2016 at 20:47

I feel like this would be really, really difficult to measure accurately, without a lot of other variables taken into consideration. You would need to know the surface area of the magnet, as well as the surface area of the reaction. If you're testing to see if the magnet is going to completely dissolve in your stomach bile within a certain time, you would need to account for the places where the magnet is reacting. Does it get dissolved evenly, or unevenly. You also have to remember that bile is not cold, its in the body and pretty warm right? So you have to think about heating your solution too.

In short this is a lot of integration, and physical chemistry. To help you I would need more information.

Summa - 18-10-2016 at 02:47

Quote: Originally posted by Fidelmios

I feel like this would be really, really difficult to measure accurately, without a lot of other variables taken into consideration. You would need to know the surface area of the magnet, as well as the surface area of the reaction. If you're testing to see if the magnet is going to completely dissolve in your stomach bile within a certain time, you would need to account for the places where the magnet is reacting. Does it get dissolved evenly, or unevenly. You also have to remember that bile is not cold, its in the body and pretty warm right? So you have to think about heating your solution too.

I understand.

The surface area of the 5mm magnet would be:

r = 2.5mm
4*pi*2.5^2 = 78.5mm^2

The surface area of the reaction? I would assume its uniform all over the sphere in the HCL solution?

"Transit time" (the time it takes for food to travel through your system) is a complicated. But it usually leaves your stomach between 2-4 hours.

Solution will be heated to 98.6 Farenheit.

This is a very important experiment and with real life applications.

Right now magnets have been banned in some countries due to ingestion and how they can harmfully come together inside you. All the magnets that were banned have been Nickel (Ni) plated.

I did research and Ni doesn't react with dilute HCL. So if a Zinc plated 3mm/5mm magnet corrodes completely OR corrodes "enough" within 2 hours of HCL .8M solution - I have solved a real world problem.

By "enough" I mean to be below 50 kg^2/mm^2. The magnetic flux.

I have already ordered my HCL solutions and has shipped:
Hach 1481253 Hydrochloric Acid Standard Solution, 0.10 N, 1 L

If anyone can at all assist or can opine, please. I am very grateful.

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by Summa]

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by Summa]

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by Summa]

Summa - 18-10-2016 at 03:14

The goal is to make a Neodymium that resists corrosion enough while being handled and exposed to air, but that quickly degrades in your stomach.

AJKOER - 18-10-2016 at 05:29

Letting the Fe dissolve in one stomach or especially a child's is a deadly. I recently became aware of accidental induced lethal doses of iron in children after consuming too much of an iron supplement.

Preventing the iron from dissolving for sufficient time prior to inducing vomiting is likely a better path to avoid fatalities.

Zinc is too readily dissolved in dilute acid, or even boiling water will form Zn(OH)2.

Many transition metals are toxic.

Try thick rubber or seal the magnet in clear thick plastic or some other acid resistant resin. A good idea would be to coat the encased magnet in disagreeable tasting compound.

Summa - 18-10-2016 at 09:27

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER

Letting the Fe dissolve in one stomach or especially a child's is a deadly. I recently became aware of accidental induced lethal doses of iron in children after consuming too much of an iron supplement.

Preventing the iron from dissolving for sufficient time prior to inducing vomiting is likely a better path to avoid fatalities.

Zinc is too readily dissolved in dilute acid, or even boiling water will form Zn(OH)2.

Many transition metals are toxic.

Try thick rubber or seal the magnet in clear thick plastic or some other acid resistant resin. A good idea would be to coat the encased magnet in disagreeable tasting compound.

How much is too much? Iron supplements are concentrated. The danger isn't from the Iron diluting. The danger comes from the magnets pinching together and creating necrotic tissue. The silent nature of this hazard is what prompted the Fed to ban the sale of magnets.

"Preventing the iron from dissolving for sufficient time prior to inducing vomiting is likely a better path to avoid fatalities."

-This is just speculation and doesn't get to the heart of the matter. You are trying to foresee a problem that currently is not an issue.

"Zinc is too readily dissolved in dilute acid, or even boiling water will form Zn(OH)2."

-Yes that is true. Also its the Zinc Oxide that offers the layer of protection as well. I am curious if the dilute HCL is enough to corrode the Zinc Oxide and the Zinc.

"A good idea would be to coat the encased magnet in disagreeable tasting compound."

-Not according to the federal government. In this case bitterants are not a sufficient deterrent to ingestion.

I am resolute in my goal in trying to make a magnet that is semi-protected when used but quickly degrades in a stomach. Unless you can show the actual LD that would result from ingesting a few of 3-5mm magnets, your answer is speculation.

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by Summa]

Metacelsus - 18-10-2016 at 09:44

Well, as long as you don't swallow more than one magnet, you'll be fine.

(Unless you get an MRI scan.)

Fidelmios - 18-10-2016 at 11:03

What I mean about reactive area would be, does the reaction cause a layer to prevent further reaction? I'll work on some sort of integration later.. don't hold your breath, idk if I can get to it today.

crystal grower - 18-10-2016 at 11:50

So I have done a little math here to find out how much Nd2Fe14B magnets ingested would be lethal for a kid with weight ~20Kg (44lb).
Content of Nd, B, and Zn plating was considered negligable because they shouldn't cause far as much harm as the major component of neo magnets - iron (and rather FeCl2 produced by reaction of Fe with HCl in stomach).

LD50(FeCl2) = 0.984g/kg [rat, oral]
D(Nd2Fe14B) = 7.5 g/cm3
M(Nd2Fe14B) = 1081.125g/mol
M(Nd2B) = 299.295g/mol
Content of Fe in the magnet = 72.32%
Magnet = sphere
r = 0.25cm
V = 4/3*π*r^3
V = 0.06545cm^3
m = 0.49g
m(Fe in 1magnet) = 0.355g
n(Fe) = n(FeCl2) = 0.00636mol
m(FeCl2) = 0.806g
0.806 = LD for 0.819kg
LD for 20kg = 24.42

So, app. 24 magnet spheres (5mm in diameter) would be lethal for a child weighting 20kg. It could mean that if someone eat a couple of these magnets, it would be acceptable to digest them IMO.

aga - 18-10-2016 at 11:57

LOL

crystal grower - 18-10-2016 at 12:05

But you also have to keep in mind that magnets just aren't supposed to be eaten. If you eat a knife, you will most likely seriously hurt yourself. Should be knifes banned because of that?

.

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by crystal grower]

AJKOER - 18-10-2016 at 12:28

Here is one source to quote (link: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00019593.htm )

"Although a toxic dose of elemental iron is 30 mg/kg, and a fatal dose is typically more than 250 mg/kg, ingestion of doses as low as 60 mg/kg have resulted in death"

So, the employed LD50(FeCl2) = 984 mg/kg [rat, oral] for rats is off by a factor of 16 for 60 mg/kg and 33 for 30 mg/kg. Apparently, human babies aren't as tough as rats pound for pound.

This doesn't make me comfortable as it implies 1 or 2 magnet spheres (5mm in diameter).
-------------------------------------

For the record, I recommended 'encased' magnets coated with a bitterants. This is not a statement that bitterants alone are sufficient deterrent to poisoning. I still recommend the use of bitterants as it may, in practice, limit the likelihood of multiple magnet injestion.

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by AJKOER]

crystal grower - 18-10-2016 at 12:51

Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER

Here is one source to quote (link: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00019593.htm )

"Although a toxic dose of elemental iron is 30 mg/kg, and a fatal dose is typically more than 250 mg/kg, ingestion of doses as low as 60 mg/kg have resulted in death"

So, the employed LD50(FeCl2) = 984 mg/kg [rat, oral] for rats is off by a factor of 16 for 60 mg/kg and 33 for 30 mg/kg. Apparently, human babies aren't as tough as rats pound for pound.

This doesn't make me comfortable as it implies 1 or 2 magnet spheres (5mm in diameter).

I know rat isn't an appropiate comparsion to a human baby, but frankly, I really haven't expected such difference. I'm sorry I've made this mistake.
Still, here arises a question, let's say LD for Fe = 30 mg/kg and LD for FeCl2 = 60mg/kg. Which number is more important if the metal is eaten and thus converted to FeCl2 in stomach?

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by crystal grower]

Maroboduus - 18-10-2016 at 13:32

Iron just doesn't dissolve very fast in the stomach. Those spheres will exit the stomach nearly intact.

One study showed that a double edged razor blade took 24 hours to lose 37% of it's mass in stomach acid. Razor blades are VERY thin in the first place, so the depth of the corrosion is quite small, and 24 hours is a LONG time for something to remain in the stomach. (If you don't believe me, eat a large bowl of corn without chewing it, and time how long it takes for you to see it again, and that's the time for the entire sojourn in the digestive tract, the stomach transit is much faster)

AJKOER - 18-10-2016 at 14:05

To come up with a standard, I suspect the legal jurisdiction the product is sold is important. For example, in China even a single death by a local distributor may be too much. See http://www.businessinsider.com/chinese-white-collar-criminal... . It may be wise to avoid certain jurisdictions.

Do you design to meet the low 30 mg/kg standard defined as toxic or something higher?

Next, package sizing, limiting the number of magnets, has to be determined. The use of bitterants could expand package sizing.

I would assume only half of a small magnet is likely dissolved in the stomach. But my knowledge of how much more could be leaching out prior to a full exiting of the body is limited.

Assuming eventually a single sucessful lawsuit awarding damages of a likely amount X, is it even possible to achieve a profit given pricing limitations?

Some good news, you can still quote the standards based on rats and enact better. Lawyers, in my bias opinion, are too arrogant to ever assume that rats are that much biologically superior to them!

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by AJKOER]

Summa - 18-10-2016 at 14:23

I like the way you guys think. But alot of this stuff just misses the point entirely and currently given the market conditions, is inactionable.

1) The number 1 thing that matters...is being able to sell in the US - legally. Right now that means nullifying the existing argument on the ban of magnets. That's it.

2) There is a federal ban. You CAN'T SELL NEODYMIUM MAGNETS BELOW A CERTAIN SIZE TO ANYONE.

3) The main reason for this ban was the type of injuries: Silent Killing. Both teenagers and kids would ingest these magnets and they would have only mild stomach symptoms. Doctors and people would not come about the problem very easily. That surreptitious deadly injury is what it was so fucked. They were pinching your intestine together, mummyfying the tissue in between.

All my efforts and research will be to defeat this argument. I've ordered the first batch to sell to Europe. It cost me 10k USD. In my next batch I want to market hard to the US.

If other issues come up like possible "iron-poisoning", there is policy precedent for attacking these issues. For example, not selling to anyone below 18+. Clearly labeling that its not a toy. You have things like gasoline, mercury, wood thhiner, actual harmful shit that is being sold constantly. These are all poisonous and are not banned - because of policy and protocol. Granted the marketing of the magnets would have to change, but there would not be a federal ban.

[Edited on 18-10-2016 by Summa]

Maroboduus - 18-10-2016 at 14:55

You're missing the point entirely. The number 1 thing that matters is that the magnets won't dissolve in the stomach.

The magnets wont dissolve in the stomach.

You just wasted 10,000 USD. (assuming you're actually telling the truth), because the magnets won't dissolve in the stomach

The magnets won't dissolve in the stomach.

You just ordered a bunch of custom magnets that have no advantage to them whatsoever, because the magnets won't dissolve in the stomach.

The magnets won't dissolve in the stomach.

Oh, by the way. Did I happen to point out that the magnets won't dissolve in the stomach?

Well if I didn't, then allow me to point out here that the magnets won't dissolve in the stomach.

j_sum1 - 18-10-2016 at 15:10

And the danger of small magnets is that they screw up the peristaltic process by which material is passed along the digestive tract. That and the fact that they are easily ingested. Kids have died and that pretty quickly. Holding out for quick dissolution for the short period of time that they are in the acidic region of the gut is a bit foolish.

IOW, not only will magnets not dissolve in the stomach (thanks for that insight and clarity, Maroboduus), they will not dissolve in the duodenum and intestine. Instead they will pinch together and lock up the tract with quick necrosis at the point of contact.

If you wanted a more productive but similar project to invest your next 10K, look at button batteries that degrade quickly in the gut. Some work has been done in this area but there is room for further developments.

Summa - 18-10-2016 at 18:52

Quote: Originally posted by Maroboduus

You're missing the point entirely. The number 1 thing that matters is that the magnets won't dissolve in the stomach.

The magnets wont dissolve in the stomach.

You just wasted 10,000 USD. (assuming you're actually telling the truth), because the magnets won't dissolve in the stomach

The magnets won't dissolve in the stomach.

You just ordered a bunch of custom magnets that have no advantage to them whatsoever, because the magnets won't dissolve in the stomach.

The magnets won't dissolve in the stomach.

Oh, by the way. Did I happen to point out that the magnets won't dissolve in the stomach?

Well if I didn't, then allow me to point out here that the magnets won't dissolve in the stomach.

Relax.

I can still sell them as the market is worldwide, and the ban is not worldwide.

Its only in the US where they is an outright federal ban.

The factory in China would not let me secure a "small sample" so I said to hell with it. If they are just as expensive as the nickel plated ones, i'll order them anyway.

I wouldn't act on this if I didn't have my data. Obviously the way I am selling them is profitable and I have an edge, so I sourced them.

[Edited on 19-10-2016 by Summa]

Summa - 18-10-2016 at 18:56

I don't have much contact with the regular world, and for good reason.

i detect alot of naysayers. and why things go wrong. and things just...can't be. Frankly, its annoying and low income.

I don't care for any of that. I am here to solve a problem and will throw everything I can at it. To hell with everything else.

anyway. I will post my results when I get the HCL. I'll take in a sample of the zinc.

Just to be clear. Its not dissolution I am after. Its being below the magnetic flux of 50 kg^2/mm^2.

Deathunter88 - 18-10-2016 at 19:14

Quote: Originally posted by Summa

Quote: Originally posted by Maroboduus

I am an avid collector of magnets, and let me tell you those zinc plated magnets won't last every long in just day to day use. Even the Ni-Cu-Ni-Cr coated magnets start to corrode after a while of playing. Your zinc magnets will likely fall apart soon after you start using them.

Summa - 19-10-2016 at 00:25

Quote: Originally posted by Deathunter88

Quote: Originally posted by Summa

Quote: Originally posted by Maroboduus

If that solves the current problem at hand, making a 5mm sphere that degrades to being below 50kg^2/mm^2 of the magnetic flux when in the stomach, so be it.

Summa - 19-10-2016 at 00:31

Quote: Originally posted by Maroboduus

Iron just doesn't dissolve very fast in the stomach. Those spheres will exit the stomach nearly intact.

One study showed that a double edged razor blade took 24 hours to lose 37% of it's mass in stomach acid. Razor blades are VERY thin in the first place, so the depth of the corrosion is quite small, and 24 hours is a LONG time for something to remain in the stomach. (If you don't believe me, eat a large bowl of corn without chewing it, and time how long it takes for you to see it again, and that's the time for the entire sojourn in the digestive tract, the stomach transit is much faster)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9283866

The 1997 said 63% of mass gone. So it had 37% left.

j_sum1 - 19-10-2016 at 00:47

A razor blade is not a magnet. The surface area to volume ratio is not the same. The time it will remain in the stomach is different. So you need to exercise caution in extrapolating from that study.

I remin skeptical that a zinc plated neodymium/iron/boron magnet will function as you want it to as a magnet, and even more skeptical that it will eliminate the hazard of ingestion.

More power to you if you have a good idea and some money to pursue it. But if you ask an opinion on an amateur science board then we will voice our skepticism.

I would love tobe wtong on this one so keep us posted.

Summa - 19-10-2016 at 01:34

Another way of attacking this problem is in the metallurgy and design of the magnet.

Remember the goal is to get the magnet below 50 kg^2/mm^2 when its in your stomach.

The magnet may or may dissolve completely or partially in your stomach. The experiment is still TBD.

But what about slicing a sphere in N equal pieces then bringing them together to build a sphere with "stuff" (organic?) in between the N pieces that can rapidly degrade in your stomach.

This sphere would then break down into the N pieces with no one N piece being stronger than 50 kg^2/mm^2.

Summa - 19-10-2016 at 01:35

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

I remin skeptical that a zinc plated neodymium/iron/boron magnet will function as you want it to as a magnet....

Magnets are zinc plated all the time?

Not sure what you mean here.

j_sum1 - 19-10-2016 at 02:18

I eas referring to deathhunter88's comment.

I think the disassembling composite magnet is a worse idea. A single magnet causes little harm. But more than one magnet is what causes the delicate surface of the small intestine to be pinched.

Maroboduus - 19-10-2016 at 07:58

Quote: Originally posted by Summa

Quote: Originally posted by Maroboduus

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9283866

The 1997 said 63% of mass gone. So it had 37% left.

Your link clearly says 63% left. If you either can't even read simple sentences in English, or are just lying in any way you can no matter how transparent to maintain your fantasy that you're A Cutting Edge Scientist and Important Businessman; then there would seem to be little point in bothering to continue this discussion.

It's pretty clear from your posts, and their context that you live in a dream-land and have come here to try to bolster your fantasies and lend substance to them by telling us all about your great money making innovations in materials science etc.

I'm surprised that the other posters here haven't mentioned that your posts are not self-consistent. That is to say, you're lying. You can't even decide if you've ordered your $10,000 magnets or not. And of course, as I mentioned above, you're lying about the study you quoted, but were dumb enough to post a link to it to make it even easier for your lies to be discovered.

It's also quite clear that you haven't even read the regulations you're basing your whole idea on, or are unable to understand the simple declarative sentences contained therein since your characterization of them is faulty.

In an earlier post you say, "I don't have much contact with the regular world, and for good reason." I don't question that statement at all. But I do think you probably have trouble accepting what that good reason really is.

But that Idea of making the magnet in pieces that are stuck together by something that will dissolve in the stomach IS really brilliant.

After all it's not like they'll still stick together after the material between them dissolves.

I mean, it's not like they're MAGNETS or something like that which would stick together anyway.

[Edited on 19-10-2016 by Maroboduus]

crystal grower - 19-10-2016 at 09:24

Yeah, I just realized this conversation is a piece of crap (and now I'm wondering if you are troll or not).
If you want to gain some credibility and you want us to believe you're a honest person and not just a troll, then then go to your garage and put some magnets from a ton of your magnets to that damn acid. If everything goes as planned, report your results. (preferably with photos).

[Edited on 19-10-2016 by crystal grower]

Maroboduus - 19-10-2016 at 09:35

You could also try reading 16CFR part 1240. The regulation which you are misquoting here, Summa.

Neodymium magnets smaller than those you discuss here are commercially available in the US. It took about 10 seconds to find them online at reasonable prices.

16CFR part 1240 only regulates the sale of said magnets fitting the description in that regulation when sold as toys for amusement.

Summa - 19-10-2016 at 09:44

Lots of mental masterbation here. Anyway I am moving forward. The lead time on the first shipment is about 21 days. The zinc coated ones. Whether they work as desired or not is irrelevant as the regulations in Europe =/= US regulations.

COGS is 3.8 with an MOQ of 1400. I ordered 2800 based on my initial results of 1 day of selling.

If you want to get into the sourcing detail and my "inconsistency", go right ahead. I thought I could get samples, I couldn't. Some factories don't want to turn on batch production for a client who they have no prior relationship. There is no inconsistency on my end - i just move fast.

While this launch is taking place I am at the same time doing R&D regarding my magnet ideas, as entering the US market would be a giant win.

Summa - 19-10-2016 at 09:50

Quote: Originally posted by Maroboduus

You could also try reading 16CFR part 1240. The regulation which you are misquoting here, Summa.

Neodymium magnets smaller than those you discuss here are commercially available in the US. It took about 10 seconds to find them online at reasonable prices.

16CFR part 1240 only regulates the sale of said magnets fitting the description in that regulation when sold as toys for amusement.

They define it as, "Any aggregation of separable magnetic objects that is a consumer product intended, marketed or commonly used as a manipulative or construction item for entertainment, such as puzzle working, sculpture building, mental stimulation, or stress relief. "

But thats the intention? The biggest market demo is buying them for amusement. Why else would a typical person buy magnetic balls?

Maroboduus - 19-10-2016 at 10:46

Quote: Originally posted by Summa

Lots of mental masterbation here.

Maroboduus - 19-10-2016 at 10:47

Quote: Originally posted by aga

LOL

Aga, you were way ahead of the curve here.

Summa - 28-10-2016 at 12:09

Batch order of Zinc plated 3mm spheres are on its way. lead time for the n42 samples are higher (20 days), so need to eventually watch inventory turnover when I start doing volume. The n35 samples have a much shorter lead time at 5 days.

Reached out to 7 professors of material sciences with cold email blasts who do research in corrosion/metalurgy. 1 got back to me.

He basically confirmed and gave me guidance with the tests I proposed. Gave two pieces of new information:

1) Possibly suggested Aluminum plating. But this is a bit tricky. I know this cant be done through elctroplating like Zinc. He told me to look into Siemens who do aluminum plating here in the states. My COGS might be sent a bit high if I can't have this process done in China.

2) He suggested to possibly build a porous network through the Sphere. This is very cool and haven't thought about it. Researching this now: http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/28436.pdf
"The use of powdered metals as the starting
material for foam production offers the same types of advantages (and often the same
limitations) as conventional powder metallurgical processes. If a particular metal or alloy
can be pressed and sintered, there is a high likelihood that it can be made into a porous
metal or metal foam."

Because the neodynium magnets are sintered, seems likely there is a high likelihood that it can be made into a porous
metal or metal foam.