Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Why not EDDN?

Why not EDDN?

Tricka90 - 6-9-2016 at 01:54

According to The Preparatory Manual of Explosives, EDDN (Ethylenediamine dinitrate) seems like a very good choice as a secondary.
It's non toxic and has good stability, though it can be detonated by a primary charge.
It also has good power, considering his detonation velocity can be as high as 6915m/s at a specific gravity of 1.5 (according to this link).
The preparation process is very simple and the ingredients are a few and relatively easy to find (except ethylenediamine which is not widely available, but not too much hard to find afterall).
I was surprised to find that there are very few discussions about EDDN on the internet, even in this forum there's just one short discussion and nothing more.
Do you think there's any good reason why this explosive is not widely produced by chemistry enthusiasts?
Also in The Preparatory Manual of Explosives EDDN is evaluated just as Moderate (while Picric Acid is High, PETN Extremely High, etc.)
Am I missing something or Ethylenediamine dinitrate really is a very underrated secondary?

[Edited on 6-9-2016 by Tricka90]

Lotilko - 6-9-2016 at 02:50

The Preparatory Manual of Explosives contains some serious mistakes regarding syntheses. I don't think the author tried any of the processes described in the book. I wouldn't use it as a no. 1 source for EM synthesis. Also nitroguanidine would be another good choice for an amateur chemist. Easy prep. and approximately as powerful as TNT.

[Edited on 2016.9.6 by Lotilko]

Tricka90 - 6-9-2016 at 03:15

Yes, nitroguanidine also seems like a good choice, but I never found any good info about how it can be properly detonated. Also it doesn't seems to be effective when used alone, it's rather used alloyed with otther secondary explosives.

Praxichys - 6-9-2016 at 05:47

Ethylenediamine is nasty stuff, and next to impossible to manufacture yourself. If you can find it, you'll pay an arm and a leg for shipping. It fumes in air, stinks, and is quite corrosive. There are many better things you can do with it than neutralize it with nitric acid and blow it up!

IMO it would be much easier to stick to nitrate esters. I can literally get everything I need for EGDN and PGDN from a single hardware store within walking distance of my house. If I made a second stop at the GNC two miles away, I'd have erythritol, glycerol, cotton, and aspirin for ETN , NG, NC, and TNP, respectively. Heck, if I went to the outdoor store for some hexamine, I could have RDX. All of these outperform EDDN by a good margin. Yes, some have increased sensitivity, but none of them are dangerously unstable like organic peroxides. Their sensitivity makes them easy to fully detonate which makes them attractive for amateurs.

If you're looking for a simpler synth (like EDDN), you can try hexamine dinitrate. Just neutralize powdered hexamine tablets with nitric acid. It's a safer synth, still simple, and the product performs like nitroguanidine. You could also make hydrazine nitrate with popular hydrazine sulfate preps.

Regardless of power or sensitivity, people who just want to "blow stuff up" will always gravitate toward the easiest substances to prepare with the easiest precursors they can gather, hence the unfortunate popularity of dangerous organic peroxides like AP, MEKP, and HMTD.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 6-9-2016 at 06:22

Praxichys described all in real running of the life. Manipulation, producing, advantage. From almost all question of Tricka 90 on S-M is clearly see, that never making some EM. It is not error. The questions from harmless are usually same. And usually started question how to make nitrocellulose. After study is for his clearly, that preparation of nitrocellulose is pretty disadvantage. And that better is prepare ETN. And that best is prepare PETN. Minimum amount of acids and huge yeld and highest working effect. On ratio price / power. Dr.

hissingnoise - 6-9-2016 at 09:20

Quote:

The preparation process is very simple and the ingredients are a few and relatively easy to find (except ethylenediamine which is not widely available, but not too much hard to find after all).

Ledgard is an obvious idiot who should be ignored ─ and the substrate nitratable to EDNA is ethyleneurea not ethylenediamine!

Derived from reaction of the diamine with urea its synth. is slow and is normally performed under pressure!

Ooops! My mistake ─ I thought you referred to EDNA, a nitramine less powerful than, but similar to RDX.

The di-nitrated diamine is less powerful still and at one time was used as a constituent of ANFO mixes!

More here!

[Edited on 6-9-2016 by hissingnoise]

Tricka90 - 6-9-2016 at 12:55

Thank you for all your replies and the useful information provided.
I didn't thought about all the problems you listed, I'm just a beginner who made just a little experience with the production of easy primaries such as SADS and HMTD.
Right know I'm looking for the right secondary to experiment with (I'm contemplating picric acid).
I didn't know The Preparatory Manual of Explosives to be full of mistakes and bad written, thank you for the warning.
Could you please recommend me any other Explosives preaparation manual which you think is better?

Lotilko - 6-9-2016 at 13:00

The Organic Chemistry of Explosives is a good read. It should turn up as a free pdf on search. Also, what class of energetics are you the most interested in?

Tricka90 - 6-9-2016 at 13:06

Thanks a lot Lotilko, I easily found it (for anyone who is interest that's the link).

Quote:

what class of energetics are you the most interested in?

I'm sorry, I don't think I'm expert enough to define a precise class I'm interested in.
In general I'm interested in secondary explosives which can be made with readily available ingredients, possibly not too much unstable and toxic.

[Edited on 6-9-2016 by Tricka90]

Lotilko - 6-9-2016 at 13:26

Quote: Originally posted by Tricka90

Thanks a lot Lotilko, I easily found it (for anyone who is interest that's the link).

Quote:

what class of energetics are you the most interested in?

No problem. I know it has been metioned on the forum a million times but those new to energetics seem to underestimate the magnitude of the situation, so here's a friendly reminder: avoid peroxides like the black plague, especially MEKP and TATP. HMTD might seem stable but after several months of storage it tends to go off even if completely free of acids and bases. So do not use peroxide based primaries.

As for secondaries, if you have proper gear, you should be able to produce almost any known high explosive. And by my previous question, I meant like, are you intersted in powrful explosives even exceeding RDX in performance, or other less powerful ones like TNT and related aromatic explosives?

Tricka90 - 6-9-2016 at 14:11

Thanks a lot for your interest.
I will follow your advise and stick with stable primaries like SADS.
I've read about the synthesis of TNT and RDX but I found them to be hard for me right know, also considering I don't have the proper apparatus to make 90 percent nitric acid.
I'm going to make ANFO+10%Al which I know is safe and easy to produce. The only problem is I don't think it can be detonated just by SADS, is it correct?

Lotilko - 6-9-2016 at 14:32

As far as my knowledge goes, AN mixtures need confinement and require boosters. I have a document which compares initiating properties of primaries. I will post it if I can find it. If I recall correctly, SASD was one of the best initiator.

Lotilko - 6-9-2016 at 14:39

Here's a book on primaries:
http://libgen.io/get.php?md5=934980EA3D21F3B15A6D6F7BACBE241...

I think it's your best source to find a primary that would suit your needs.

Tricka90 - 6-9-2016 at 15:15

Thank you for the interest, but I'm not sure how to use the website you linked...

Lotilko - 6-9-2016 at 15:45

Search for primary explosives on the site and download it. I wanted to upload it but the size limit is 8 MB.

roXefeller - 6-9-2016 at 17:08

Quote: Originally posted by Lotilko

As far as my knowledge goes, AN mixtures need confinement and require boosters. I have a document which compares initiating properties of primaries. I will post it if I can find it. If I recall correctly, SASD was one of the best initiator.

I haven't put booster to ANFO yet but in my reading of The Blasters Handbook from ISEE, being a blasting agent, ANFO requires more than a #8 cap to detonate (i.e. booster required). But the AN-Al mixture is set off from high velocity rifle shots as a exploding target (though I could be led to believe this was actually high speed deflagration if someone wanted to correct me). While AN is insensitive certain mixtures of it are more sensitive than others.

Tricka90 - 7-9-2016 at 01:11

Quote: Originally posted by Lotilko

Search for primary explosives on the site and download it.

Wow the website si excellent. I found lots of very good books for free, the one about Primary Explosives is outstanding, it has lots of in-depth analysis about SADS which I never found before anywhere.

Thank you for your informations roXefeller. I think ANFO is the most sensitive AN mixture I can make since I don't have Nitromethane available to make ANNM.
I will try to detonate ANFO using a blasting cap with about 1gr SADS and 1gr or more Picric Acid. I think that is going to work.

[Edited on 7-9-2016 by Tricka90]

Lotilko - 7-9-2016 at 02:20

I think one could sensitize AN with urea or copper(II) oxide. Urea could form urea nitrate and the copper(II) oxide could form TACN, which itself is a primary. I wanted to try copper sensitized AN but never had the opportunity. I wouldn't recommend mixing the two, it's just an idea.

On the other hand, urea nitrate should be simple to prepare if you have urea, an alkali metal nitrate and hydrochloric acid. It's on the site wiki.

OneEyedPyro - 7-9-2016 at 07:41

ANFO is quite insensitive compared to many other AN mixes, powdered AN/Al is cap sensitive at various ratios.

Contrary to popular belief nearly all nitro EMs can be prepared with a nitrate salt in place of nitric acid, TNT and PETN are two notable examples commonly though to require nitric acid.

MineMan - 7-9-2016 at 10:44

Tricka.

A few things I know for sure. ANFO is reported as needing a booster, this is done in the mines but is not necessary for us. Crushed ANFO with microballoons IS cap sensitive.

The most sensitive ANAL mixture is 95% AN 5% Al, yes this is not Oxygen Balanced, but is the most sensitive it has a critical dia of 6mm! Of course make sure your AN is as dry and fine as possible, and your Al as small as possible.

PHILOU Zrealone - 7-9-2016 at 14:53

EDDN (ethylene diamine dinitrate) would be much less interesting than EDDP (ethylene diamine diperchlorate); since EDDP would display more sensitivity, a higher density, a higher VOD and as a result more brisance.

EDDC (ethylene diamine dichlorate) should be even more sensitive than EDDP but less powerful (stil probably better than EDDN)...EDDC will probably be near a primary...but datas about it are lacking so care must be used when attempting its synthesis what requires HClO3 (dangerous above 35% concentration because of explosive ClO2(g) release)...of course EDDC is to play with in minute amount ... and not for long storage --> for obvious safety reasons ... unless study proves it is stabile enough (most organic amine chlorate are quite friction and shock sensitive even more than the related perchlorates!).

Tricka90 - 8-9-2016 at 05:01

Thank you for all your very informative answer, I really appreciate it.
So are you saying ANAL is more sensitive than ANFO? Only 6 mm as critical diameter is very good! That means ANAL can be detonated even in very small quantities (way less than 100 grams) !

Laboratory of Liptakov - 8-9-2016 at 07:33

For study recommend Gordon mixture. Free available patent: https://www.google.com/patents/US3247033
Very low critical diameter and maybe (according all attempts) most powerfull binary mix ANFO. Primary sensitive from 300 mg almost anything primary compound. Best density for full power is 1,25g /cm3. Usually is best density for ANFO 0,7 - 0,9 g /cm3. Thus, at same the space gives Gordon mixture bigger power. Shortly, more energy in 1 cm3. Worked from 10g mini charge from primary 0,3g. ......Dr.... :cool:

kratomiter - 8-9-2016 at 08:42

Quote: Originally posted by Tricka90

Quote: Originally posted by Lotilko

Search for primary explosives on the site and download it.

One advice: as silver compounds are expensive, try to make a few grams of any nitrated polyol (MHN, ETN, PETN...). With just 50 mg of SADS you can detonated well pressed MHN: 300 mg MHN can detonate almost any secondary like picric acid. Or even use itself as a booster in >2 grams quantities.

MineMan - 8-9-2016 at 10:23

Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov

For study recommend Gordon mixture. Free available patent: https://www.google.com/patents/US3247033
Very low critical diameter and maybe (according all attempts) most powerfull binary mix ANFO. Primary sensitive from 300 mg almost anything primary compound. Best density for full power is 1,25g /cm3. Usually is best density for ANFO 0,7 - 0,9 g /cm3. Thus, at same the space gives Gordon mixture bigger power. Shortly, more energy in 1 cm3. Worked from 10g mini charge from primary 0,3g. ......Dr.... :cool:

LL, which of his mixtures are you referring to? the 91%AN and 9% Hexamine? when you experimented with this was it in powder form or did you melt it like he describes?

Praxichys - 8-9-2016 at 10:43

Silver isn't that expensive to use as a primary. You can get bouillon on eBay, $9 for 5g, which is $1.80 per gram (even cheaper if you buy more). A typical "heavy" SADS load is around 120mg, and silver makes up roughly a quarter of the weight of SADS, so...

$10 worth of silver (5g) would make 20g SADS, enough to fill 166 of the heavy 120mg caps. Cut that to a more reasonable 60mg cap and you can now make 332 caps for $10. Each heavy cap comes out to 6¢ in silver and each standard cap would cost about 3¢. It's not worth worrying about!

I do agree for safety and reliability reasons that caps have a booster built in. Personally I have had problems with MHN being sticky and under-nitrated. Besides, pressing is a little too dangerous for me.

My preferred option is 350mg ETN melt-cast into the bottom of the cap with 60mg SADS on top. This is best accomplished by placing the empty cap cases into a wooden rack, loading the cases with 350mg ETN powder, and then placing the rack into hot water and walking away. The ETN is safely formed into a perfect high-density block at the bottom of the cap with no danger to the user. 60mg SADS is then placed on top of the solid, cooled ETN, followed by 1/8" visco fuse. The fuse and SADS is held in place temporarily by a small cotton plug, and the top is permanently capped with 2-part epoxy. The cotton also keeps the epoxy out of the SADS and keeps it compressed gently against the ETN.

You can find the perfect cap bodies on eBay sold as "perfume sample vials". You can get 100 of them for less than $10, and they are available in 0.7ml, 1ml, and 1.5ml varieties. They are clear glass (which is kind of neat) so they need to be stored in the dark or painted black if you plan to use SADS. Lately I have been using lead azide instead, for this reason. Another drawback is that the ETN will melt and ruin the cap if it is heated to about 60°C, which can happen inside a toolbox left in the sun, a vehicle, etc.

I know all of this is sort of off-topic, but relevant if a safe method of initiation is needed for insensitive secondaries. Please make sure you do this legally. I have a lot of land and I don't store anything in order to comply with my local laws. I happen to know a lot but I would hate for someone to get into trouble following any of this.

EDIT: Never mind about my failure with MHN. I was thinking about the time I tried to nitrate xylitol. MHN would be nice to use since it is more dense and has a higher VoD than ETN, but the melt casting process would require a scary trip to 120°C in an oil bath. I guess it could be alloyed with ETN or something to bring that <100°C but I don't think the minor performance boost is worth the added handling/complexity.

[Edited on 8-9-2016 by Praxichys]

MineMan - 8-9-2016 at 12:58

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

Silver isn't that expensive to use as a primary. You can get bouillon on eBay, $9 for 5g, which is $1.80 per gram (even cheaper if you buy more). A typical "heavy" SADS load is around 120mg, and silver makes up roughly a quarter of the weight of SADS, so...

$10 worth of silver (5g) would make 20g SADS, enough to fill 166 of the heavy 120mg caps. Cut that to a more reasonable 60mg cap and you can now make 332 caps for $10. Each heavy cap comes out to 6¢ in silver and each standard cap would cost about 3¢. It's not worth worrying about!

I do agree for safety and reliability reasons that caps have a booster built in. Personally I have had problems with MHN being sticky and under-nitrated. Besides, pressing is a little too dangerous for me.

My preferred option is 350mg ETN melt-cast into the bottom of the cap with 60mg SADS on top. This is best accomplished by placing the empty cap cases into a wooden rack, loading the cases with 350mg ETN powder, and then placing the rack into hot water and walking away. The ETN is safely formed into a perfect high-density block at the bottom of the cap with no danger to the user. 60mg SADS is then placed on top of the solid, cooled ETN, followed by 1/8" visco fuse. The fuse and SADS is held in place temporarily by a small cotton plug, and the top is permanently capped with 2-part epoxy. The cotton also keeps the epoxy out of the SADS and keeps it compressed gently against the ETN.

You can find the perfect cap bodies on eBay sold as "perfume sample vials". You can get 100 of them for less than $10, and they are available in 0.7ml, 1ml, and 1.5ml varieties. They are clear glass (which is kind of neat) so they need to be stored in the dark or painted black if you plan to use SADS. Lately I have been using lead azide instead, for this reason. Another drawback is that the ETN will melt and ruin the cap if it is heated to about 60°C, which can happen inside a toolbox left in the sun, a vehicle, etc.

I know all of this is sort of off-topic, but relevant if a safe method of initiation is needed for insensitive secondaries. Please make sure you do this legally. I have a lot of land and I don't store anything in order to comply with my local laws. I happen to know a lot but I would hate for someone to get into trouble following any of this.

EDIT: Never mind about my failure with MHN. I was thinking about the time I tried to nitrate xylitol. MHN would be nice to use since it is more dense and has a higher VoD than ETN, but the melt casting process would require a scary trip to 120°C in an oil bath. I guess it could be alloyed with ETN or something to bring that <100°C but I don't think the minor performance boost is worth the added handling/complexity.

[Edited on 8-9-2016 by

Praxichys, I think that is great advice, and I think your design and procedure is a great way to avoid pressing! ETN is a little touchy but still safe when managed properly. Your location says Michigan, and I know according to the ATF it is legal to manufacture without a license... Just not to store. How do you comply with this, as your SADS and ETN would need to be stored to make your caps? And then You would have to use your caps the minute you made them to avoid storage? I am only asking you this because I too live in the States and I am wondering if I am missing something that I could apply to myself... Is it legal to store under a certain amount??

MineMan - 8-9-2016 at 13:19

Whoops my reply got placed in the quote...

Laboratory of Liptakov - 8-9-2016 at 22:12

This storage on private property is an interesting question. How long? Only one day? Or one week? Since production can take for example a week. I'll give an example: Someone needs 1,000 grams of explosives. But can be produced in one step of only 50 grams. This means that it is necessary to store at least 19 charges for nearly a week. It is this detail given in the law? Thanks.

MineMan - 9-9-2016 at 10:06

LL, this is what I am curious about also... I hope Praxichys can answer this!

Jimbo Jones - 9-9-2016 at 12:22

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

My preferred option is 350mg ETN melt-cast into the bottom of the cap with 60mg SADS on top.

[Edited on 8-9-2016 by Praxichys]

Interesting. I always thought that the cast ETN have large critical diameter and needs strong kick in order to detonate.

Praxichys - 11-9-2016 at 08:04

https://www.atf.gov/explosives/docs/publication-federal-expl...

You can legally manufacture explosives for personal use on your own property, although there is a minimum distance from inhabited structures that you are allowed to both manufacture and use explosives from. You cannot make them inside a residence if it is occupied by anyone other than yourself, and all explosive material must be locked up if it is not attended per §555.205. Explosives can only be stored in approved and inspected magazines, and there is a maximum explosive weight that can be stored in any one magazine based on its dimensions. There are requirements for minimum distance from regularly occupied dwellings, and requirements for locks. You must be licensed by the ATF to use a magazine for explosive storage.

Because of this, I do not have a magazine, nor do I store any explosive material unless it is "in the process of manufacture". Since you must be licensed by the ATF to transport explosives on public roads, I need to take a portion of my lab up north with me in order to make the charges on-site and thus remain legal. Daunting as that seems, the process is incredibly easy after you run it a few times, and it only takes about a morning to get everything together.

Laboratory of Liptakov - 11-9-2016 at 12:10

Thanks, very interesting read about law in link. Shortly:
In a remote shack, it is necessary to mix ammonium nitrate and something. And then immediately self blow up. A nearby villages, neighbours and authorities have no worries for a long time.... :cool:

...LL