Sciencemadness Discussion Board

sealed plastic bottle discharging electricitywhats going on?

chemtard - 16-8-2016 at 09:46

Any Idea on whats going on here anyone?

My better half purchased a plastic 375ml bottle of artists medium which she hadn't tried before, and when she attempted to remove the seal (foil lined inside and paper thin layer of styrofoamy type material on the outside, like is used in some milk bottles and vitamin jars etc) she got shocked quite strongly 3 or 4 times in a row when she touched the seal. So she got me to try and remove the seal and zap.. quite a strong shock with visible spark, tried again.. zap.. same thing. 3rd time for me again zap and visible spark, I would put the shock strength at about 1/2 of what you get from a standard electric fence for live stock. quite strange we both thought, so i put my finger on the seal and held it there and for the next 30 - 40 seconds I felt a regular pulse of gradually weakening discharge at about 1 per second. Is it static? or is the artist medium acting like a battery.. anyone got any ideas?

PHILOU Zrealone - 16-8-2016 at 11:07

What is artist medium?

A medium that acts artistically; an artist that communicates with passed away artist; a place where you can allow artist to react --> a theater or an expo :);):P:D

NO just kidding, I have no clue what is an artist medium...could you elaborate a bit on its use, smell and look.

The presence of plastic and styrofoam and foil (metallic?) may induce static electricity...but this usually doesn't recharge so fast after discharge...so a chemical oxydoreox (battery in shortcut) may explain the repetitive build up in electric potential.

MrHomeScientist - 16-8-2016 at 11:13

The other option is that the bottle is acting as a sort of Leyden Jar. Your bottle has no outer conductor, but that article does mention this:
Quote:
The original form of the device was just a glass bottle partially filled with water, with a metal wire passing through a cork closing it. The role of the outer plate was provided by the hand of the experimenter.
(emphasis mine)

PHILOU Zrealone - 16-8-2016 at 12:47

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
The other option is that the bottle is acting as a sort of Leyden Jar. Your bottle has no outer conductor, but that article does mention this:
Quote:
The original form of the device was just a glass bottle partially filled with water, with a metal wire passing through a cork closing it. The role of the outer plate was provided by the hand of the experimenter.
(emphasis mine)

The best part of your wikipedia link is:
-Quote-
Residual charge
If a charged Leyden jar is discharged by shorting the inner and outer coatings and left to sit for a few minutes, the jar will recover some of its previous charge, and a second spark can be obtained from it. Often this can be repeated, and a series of 4 or 5 sparks, decreasing in length can be obtained at intervals. This effect is caused by dielectric absorption.
-End of quote-

Morgan - 16-8-2016 at 12:58

A photo of the bottle would be interesting. When I read the post this article immediately came to mind as a possible explanation.
http://www.esdjournal.com/static/shower/shower.html

chemtard - 17-8-2016 at 02:34

Appreciate the responses, Leyden Jar it is.

@PHILOU Zrealone, artist medium knowledge takes years of something something, but this product may be a good starting point for you.. :p

<img src=https://www.fineartstore.com/images/Product/medium/8929.jpg>

@MrHomeScientist - Bingo! you win the gold erlynpic medal with a technical score of 9.8

@Morgan close second wins silver, the judges scored you a very high 9.7 for entertainment in the shampoo link.

<img src=https://www.fineartstore.com/images/Product/medium/8927.jpg>

this is the product in question btw.

Morgan - 17-8-2016 at 09:08

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist  
The other option is that the bottle is acting as a sort of Leyden Jar. Your bottle has no outer conductor, but that article does mention this:
Quote:
The original form of the device was just a glass bottle partially filled with water, with a metal wire passing through a cork closing it. The role of the outer plate was provided by the hand of the experimenter.
(emphasis mine)

The best part of your wikipedia link is:
-Quote-
Residual charge
If a charged Leyden jar is discharged by shorting the inner and outer coatings and left to sit for a few minutes, the jar will recover some of its previous charge, and a second spark can be obtained from it. Often this can be repeated, and a series of 4 or 5 sparks, decreasing in length can be obtained at intervals. This effect is caused by dielectric absorption.
-End of quote-


I discovered that residual charge effect shortly after triggering a spark from a homemade Leyden jar made from a LDPE bottle and steel water bottle with some salt and magnesium sulfate for the electrolyte. It was topped with a piece of flex tubing to keep the thing from bleeding off the charge as fast as I charged it around the "top" edge of the water bottle. Around the 1 minute mark you can see my hand jerk away, a residual charge built up quite fast. It made a little tick sound when I was shocked. One time it didn't want to discharge and when I walked by it, a big long spark zapped me in the shoulder. Interesting how the pvc rod proximity teases the spark to fire. I should say the electrodes were a little bit more than 13 inches apart but the spark shortcuts to the insulation a little bit. And the spark makes quite a bit of ozone and nitrogen oxides which can sting your nose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMQYp218a-Q
http://www.pulse-jets.com/phpbb3/download/file.php?id=14229&...

[Edited on 17-8-2016 by Morgan]

Morgan - 17-8-2016 at 10:06

Quote: Originally posted by chemtard  
Appreciate the responses, Leyden Jar it is.

@PHILOU Zrealone, artist medium knowledge takes years of something something, but this product may be a good starting point for you.. :p

<img src=https://www.fineartstore.com/images/Product/medium/8929.jpg>

@MrHomeScientist - Bingo! you win the gold erlynpic medal with a technical score of 9.8

@Morgan close second wins silver, the judges scored you a very high 9.7 for entertainment in the shampoo link.

<img src=https://www.fineartstore.com/images/Product/medium/8927.jpg>

this is the product in question btw.


Looks like GAC-800 contains propylene glycol and ammonia.
http://www2.uwstout.edu/content/msds/Golden-Acrylics-2007.pd...

I thought this was an interesting tidbit about the shampoo bottle. It sounds like a fun/simplistic way to recharge a bottle by shaking it.
"The first time a bottle was opened resulted in a discharge approximately 1.5 inches in length from the shampoo to the metallized film cap seal. Even though a discharge was expected based on the reports of the manufacturer, it still was a surprise. Carefully placing the cap back on the bottle and removing it again resulted in no discharge. After Shaking the bottle and removing the cap again, another discharge of approximately the same intensity was observed. If the discharged bottles were allowed to sit for a period of several minutes, discharges would occur. There did not seem to be an end to the ability of the shampoo bottles to provide a discharge although the intensity did reduced over a period of several days even with repeated discharges."
http://www.esdjournal.com/static/shower/shower.html

Morgan - 18-8-2016 at 11:13

Another albeit humorous account ... I'm starting to think it might be the plastic bottle itself that's initially imparted with a charge either by corona discharge pretreatment to allow inks to stick or by some other means in the process of making the bottle that imbues it with a charge. There're the acrylic Lichtenberg figures that are bombarded/energized that also exhibit a powerful sparking action.

"Please be prepared for an almost silly or unbelievable account of a static electric shock. It was so uniquely random and shocking (literally and figuratively). I was shocked on the right tip of my nose, while smelling an open bottle of hair gel (to check if the scent was appealing). I asked the clerk if it were alright to open the container, she offered to do so and then held the bottle close to my nose. I leaned toward the plastic bottle top, when a very loud, "pop" of electricity shocked me. I jolted back grabbing my nose, and the clerk was very surprised by the audibly "very loud pop" of electricity. It was very quick, but quite painful, it felt as if an electric charged hot poker pierced my nose. My eyes immediately began to tear from the pain and continued go do so for almost any 15 minutes. The following day, I still had a lot of pain, but now it was localized to a spot higher up the nose by the tip of the cartilage, there also seems to be a deep reddish mark, noticed from under the skin, not upon the surface. Can I possibly have incurred tissue damage from this incredibly random static shock? (If that is what it was?!) Please give any input, if possible. Thank you."
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=5313...

Some pseudoscience but containing one comment below the article with a tidbit to glean from.
http://pesn.com/2006/04/14/9600258_Joe_Cell_Shocker_Bottle/

Lastly, a grapefruit and watermelon sitting atop a sheet of Teflon, charged with a piece of pvc tubing and paper towel. Even some fruits will hold a charge for a short time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne6L7wzV68Y
Or just a watermelon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HlovqIMGkM

ficolas - 18-8-2016 at 11:48

Morgan, reading two paragraphs of that pseudoscience gave me several diseases D:

Morgan - 19-8-2016 at 07:15

Quote: Originally posted by ficolas  
Morgan, reading two paragraphs of that pseudoscience gave me several diseases D:


I know you want to learn more. Forgive me. ha

"Even so, the machine has a "personality" all its own. Sometimes, if someone comes into the premises who has highly negative emotions, the machine ceases to work. People who are "sensitive" to "energies" get an unusual sensation when the machine is operating."

"The inventor knows now that he needs to shield the machine so as to protect people from some of the nuclear particles that are emitted while it is in operation. For the first two or three years, the inventor used to remark, "The machine is killing me, and the water is keeping me alive."

"Another time, his friend was standing at the sink washing dishes, some 20 feet away from the machine. When the machine cycled through one of its phases, suddenly she was no longer standing in front of the sink, but was standing outside in a field. She saw people walking in the distance, and houses in the distance. Then the machine cycled through the next phase and instantly she was standing at the sink once again. My impression was that she was not moved through space but through time somehow."

"These are amazing times in which we live."
http://pesn.com/2006/04/14/9600259_Modified_Joe_Cell/