Sciencemadness Discussion Board

government restrictions why bother

urenthesage - 4-4-2016 at 15:54

Most of you have probably had to deal with government restrictions on importing, buying, and selling (if that applies to you). Are they not the most rediculous thing ever??? I know they are bound by treaties and such but, oh, lets say, toluene. I can go to the hardware store and buy a tin of it (MSDS says its 100% toluene), but I cant buy it off of a chemical seller because of laws meant to restrict my access to something freely available for cleaning brushes. Iodine is another fantastic example, it cant get through border security because meth, but I can buy all the potassium iodide I want, it isnt restricted here at all, and make iodine from that. What is the purpose of these treaties and legislations if they can be so easily circumvented. Take red phosphorus, true its used in one particular synthesis of meth, but it has thousands of other positive uses in chemistry, and we have to go without because some hillbillies want to cook meth??? This is madness. We need to start educating our politicians on amateur chemistry, most of them wouldn't know what the Cl is in NaCl, and they write laws based on that total ignorance, this has got to stop. I feel for those of you who do chemistry in europe, the laws there are rediculous in the extreme, limiting peroxide strength is just the tip of massive prejudice and ignorance in reactionary transient governments and those of you who live there have to break the law to do meaningful chemistry. This insanity has to stop sometime or you'll be forced to fill out paperwork to buy road salt, being a chemical and all that. We need our great minds to go to work on this issue, to make these pedestrian politicians understand that not every lab is a meth lab, and not every chemist wants to blow shit up. Thank you.

[Edited on 5-4-2016 by urenthesage]

TheAlchemistPirate - 4-4-2016 at 18:15

My philosophy is that I can get/make any chemical or element I want/need, since our interest is based on making those materials in the first place! If chemists in the 1800s could make white phosphorous with SiO2, charcoal, and bone ash we still can today. Concentrated hydrogen peroxide can be made at home too, if we can be bothered to make a chemical on our own of all things :D . In my opinion just making those substances on my porch which our governments have spent billions to prevent is possibly the most fun part of home chemistry. Also, as far as educating politicians on more than selling used cars, you may as well teach them history(which they seem to repeat constantly) and basic military logic as well.


[Edited on 5-4-2016 by TheAlchemistPirate]

dhaffnersr - 5-4-2016 at 01:41

Believe me, its not so much that governments want to restrict your access to chemicals, they just don't want you buying them in bulk quanities. Those are big red flags that will get U noticed very quickly on everyone's radar.

Example, why would an everyday urban dweller buy 200lbs of ammonium nitrate? See where that can lead?

Why would you want to buy 100lbs of C6H12N4-hexamethylenetetramine?

So forth and so forth.

I use to work for the government, so I kinda know how they think:o

It does help to try and understand things from their perspective though, "they" just operate from the extreme at all times...Cover UR ASS at ALL times! They are the puppets of the one's who operate with the mind set of the bottom line, maximum profit.

Most politicians are either lawyers or wealthy business men or women. So go figure, we just have to be creative and innovative. I don't know where UR from, but its the same here in the USA. I'm just waiting for the day when they start to tax the very air we breathe!:cool:

MeshPL - 5-4-2016 at 07:19

In Poland it is not that bad... You can buy most things easily. You just need to search well. Acids and H2O2 are hard to get, but I finally found a seller on internet. 30% H2O2 can be bought from pool store but is expensive. Acids are the worst. Maybe if you wanted some uranium, thorium mercury or drug precursors it would also be hard, but only radioactive stuff, very poisonous stuff (e.g. thallium) and just cool but rare stuff (borohydrides, SOCl2) is really impossible to get.

Only stupid thing is that KMnO4 is considered a drug precursor. But you can buy some in any pharmacy...

BTW, how can you make drugs with permanganate?

urenthesage - 5-4-2016 at 07:33

Quote: Originally posted by MeshPL  
In Poland it is not that bad... You can buy most things easily. You just need to search well. Acids and H2O2 are hard to get, but I finally found a seller on internet. 30% H2O2 can be bought from pool store but is expensive. Acids are the worst. Maybe if you wanted some uranium, thorium mercury or drug precursors it would also be hard, but only radioactive stuff, very poisonous stuff (e.g. thallium) and just cool but rare stuff (borohydrides, SOCl2) is really impossible to get.

Only stupid thing is that KMnO4 is considered a drug precursor. But you can buy some in any pharmacy...

BTW, how can you make drugs with permanganate?


Im glad you have access to these chemicals. I live in Canada and to be truthful, its not that hard to get most things if you know where to look. The mail isnt searched that thoroughly most of the time so I do slip in restricted chemicals from time to time. My main argument was with the absurdity of these laws, They are easy to break with few consequences if you get caught, It just pisses me off that government are so ignorant about these things and just follow what they are given, primarily with the USA. Funny enough uranium is so easy to find here in nature (if you know where to look) that its minerals have almost zero restriction whatsoever, I can even send them in the mail if I want with not even an eye batted. Its just that all of the stuff thats restricted can be worked up if you have the patience and starting material. Why bother involving the law on chemicals that you can make anyways, its absurd in the extreme. I was primarily thinking of you in Europe, where restrictions are far worse, just on the vague assumption that you are making drugs or bombs, when we amateur chemists would almost never do these things, we just want to learn. If you need some permanganate hit me up with a U2U. I would also offer some uranium but I dont have much UO2 (7 grams is my entire supply) but If I find some Id be glad to ship you some.

Warmest regards,
JB

Alkoxide - 5-4-2016 at 07:48

Many politicians are a special kind of special. They pass these laws for public appeal so they can get re-elected, without realizing who it will affect other than those making drugs. They are not thought through and are often illogical. Be thankful they were dumb enough to leave loopholes for us. In a way, these laws are also what makes this hobby special. We put our heads together and devise innovative solutions to side-step new laws. Its a challenge.

urenthesage - 5-4-2016 at 07:48

Quote: Originally posted by dhaffnersr  
Believe me, its not so much that governments want to restrict your access to chemicals, they just don't want you buying them in bulk quanities. Those are big red flags that will get U noticed very quickly on everyone's radar.

Example, why would an everyday urban dweller buy 200lbs of ammonium nitrate? See where that can lead?

Why would you want to buy 100lbs of C6H12N4-hexamethylenetetramine?

So forth and so forth.

I use to work for the government, so I kinda know how they think:o

It does help to try and understand things from their perspective though, "they" just operate from the extreme at all times...Cover UR ASS at ALL times! They are the puppets of the one's who operate with the mind set of the bottom line, maximum profit.

Most politicians are either lawyers or wealthy business men or women. So go figure, we just have to be creative and innovative. I don't know where UR from, but its the same here in the USA. I'm just waiting for the day when they start to tax the very air we breathe!:cool:


Your laws are almost identical to ours here in Canada than, with some minor exceptions. I agree whole heartedly that someone buying a tonne of ammonium nitrate should be scrutinized, theyre either farmers or have a nefarious purpose in mind. My problem is when it extends to any quantity at all because the legislation is so broad. Red Phosphorus is a great example. You are autimatically assumed to be making meth with it before you even recieve it (It does breach, in my opinion, the constitutional protection on being innocent before proven guilty both here and in the US, we do have that same protection here) and it seized and destroyed if detected. all before you have a chance to qualify your purchase. I was able to get some but I had to break the law to get it. This is part of the insanity I was talking about, and this applies to a rather large number of chemicals here in Canada. It even restricts purchases made in Canada to having insurance, and a business number before you can buy say sulfuric acid 98% or Nitric Acid 68%. I know how to make these (H2SO4 from Battery acid boiled for hours to remove the water, and calcium ammonium nitrate (not restricted at all) with said 98% sulfuric acid to make 68% azeotropic nitric acid) Thanks for your reply, JB

urenthesage - 5-4-2016 at 07:52

Quote: Originally posted by TheAlchemistPirate  
My philosophy is that I can get/make any chemical or element I want/need, since our interest is based on making those materials in the first place! If chemists in the 1800s could make white phosphorous with SiO2, charcoal, and bone ash we still can today. Concentrated hydrogen peroxide can be made at home too, if we can be bothered to make a chemical on our own of all things :D . In my opinion just making those substances on my porch which our governments have spent billions to prevent is possibly the most fun part of home chemistry. Also, as far as educating politicians on more than selling used cars, you may as well teach them history(which they seem to repeat constantly) and basic military logic as well.

I agree we should first try and make them ourselves, but most people dont have the coin to make the kind of apparatus we need to do that, or they dont feel that process is safe to do. We should try our best to make these things ourselves, but some of us hate breaking the law (or bending it) in order to get what we need to do that. Regards, JB
[Edited on 5-4-2016 by TheAlchemistPirate]


[Edited on 5-4-2016 by urenthesage]

UC235 - 5-4-2016 at 10:09

Quote: Originally posted by MeshPL  
In Poland it is not that bad... You can buy most things easily. You just need to search well. Acids and H2O2 are hard to get, but I finally found a seller on internet. 30% H2O2 can be bought from pool store but is expensive. Acids are the worst. Maybe if you wanted some uranium, thorium mercury or drug precursors it would also be hard, but only radioactive stuff, very poisonous stuff (e.g. thallium) and just cool but rare stuff (borohydrides, SOCl2) is really impossible to get.

Only stupid thing is that KMnO4 is considered a drug precursor. But you can buy some in any pharmacy...

BTW, how can you make drugs with permanganate?


As I understand it, it is used in cocaine processing. Of course, unless you're growing a bunch of coca trees yourself, I don't think it's of much use.

Mailinmypocket - 5-4-2016 at 10:14

It (KMnO4) is also used in the synthesis of methcathinone if Im not mistaken...

arkoma - 5-4-2016 at 10:17

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket  
It (KMnO4) is also used in the synthesis of methcathinone if Im not mistaken...


Yup. Takes no time at all. An oxidation of ephedrine. Chrome(VI) works too.

Mailinmypocket - 5-4-2016 at 12:55

This is why we can't have nice chemicals... "Safety is number one priority" yes. Apparently so with the lack of chemical goggles, gloves or warnings. Don't even discuss what might be happening.

http://youtu.be/mTZaTAyXEzQ

Chem Rage - 6-4-2016 at 04:00

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket  
This is why we can't have nice chemicals... "Safety is number one priority" yes. Apparently so with the lack of chemical goggles, gloves or warnings. Don't even discuss what might be happening.

http://youtu.be/mTZaTAyXEzQ


You heard him, folks! Do NOT try this at home! Because he is a Top Notch, Fully Qualified, Highly Experienced Expert and Professor in Chemistry who knows how to handle these extremely, extremely hazardous materials with care (just look at the white lab coat, eyes shields and vinyl gloves he is kitted out in!) .........and you are mere rookies who cant even be trusted with the monumental task of boiling water without scalding yourselves. In this episode, the Chemist synthesises a mess! :D

urenthesage - 6-4-2016 at 04:40

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket  
This is why we can't have nice chemicals... "Safety is number one priority" yes. Apparently so with the lack of chemical goggles, gloves or warnings. Don't even discuss what might be happening.

http://youtu.be/mTZaTAyXEzQ


Sad, but hes not using anything restricted. It should be his right to kill himself that way if he so chooses though. Why should government tell him he cant?

Mailinmypocket - 6-4-2016 at 05:20

You're missing the point. Soon enough after enough kids get blasted in the face by hot calcium hypochlorite and cola a permit will be required to buy pool shock (show proof you have a swimming pool installation, get something similar to a hunting or fishing permit that you need to show any retailer where you buy the stuff.) It wont stop stupidities from happening but it won't make practicing chemistry outside of a laboratory easy in the future.

Fegie - 6-4-2016 at 08:40

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket  
You're missing the point. Soon enough after enough kids get blasted in the face by hot calcium hypochlorite and cola a permit will be required to buy pool shock (show proof you have a swimming pool installation, get something similar to a hunting or fishing permit that you need to show any retailer where you buy the stuff.) It wont stop stupidities from happening but it won't make practicing chemistry outside of a laboratory easy in the future.


if i recall he made a video on "make your own AC at home" by using a styrofoam box, a load of dry ice and a fan.
Needless to say releasing alot of co2 indoors isnt exactly a bright idea.

ave369 - 6-4-2016 at 08:46

The biggest listed chemical in my country is concentrated sulfuric acid. Thus, "Boiling the Bat" (boiling down dilute battery acid to concentrated) is a common practice.

Other common chemicals are also restricted, but there are strange cases. For example, potassium permanganate is banned from pharmacies but still is available in gardening stores.

Mailinmypocket - 6-4-2016 at 08:54

Yup. The passion for science is there but the brains aren't. He's also particularly fond of potassium permanganate lately... doing anything and everything with it he can. for example, carrying around a mix of it along with sugar in your camping bag to start a fire by friction. Very smart. Strong oxidizer and fuel mix stored in a jar in your bag. Excellent, just awesome. Anyways I'm done derailing this thread with rants about that channel. ;)

Fegie - 6-4-2016 at 10:57

Quote: Originally posted by ave369  
The biggest listed chemical in my country is concentrated sulfuric acid. Thus, "Boiling the Bat" (boiling down dilute battery acid to concentrated) is a common practice.

Other common chemicals are also restricted, but there are strange cases. For example, potassium permanganate is banned from pharmacies but still is available in gardening stores.


Ah, boiling battery acid...
Its funny how you can get it cheaper around here(finland) than getting 98% pure.
one liter of 98% is about 30 euros from chem suppliers, while you can get 3 bottles of 37% battery acid for 15 euros and just boil away the water.
i have never tried to distill it because i honestly cannot handle vapors that are 300 degrees celsius with the distilling equiptment i have(the lead from the boiling flask to the condenser is made from pvc hose that i got from the local paper factory, its chem resistant but it would melt in sulfuric acid distillation)

The problem is that when you boil down battery acid it often has impurities in it that leaves it brown...

I COULD just buy 98% clear sulfuric acid drain cleaner but the pricetag is way too high and only one corporation sells it here.
Its weird how only one brand of sulfuric acid based drain cleaner exists here...

Poolchemicals are not regulated at all though some suppliers require you to fill in a form where you tell what you need it for(for some, sodium hypochloride, large batches of sulfuric acid 37%, hydrochloric acid) because the stuff is a pain in the ass to deliver and requries alotta paperwork.
Never ordered those chems because i dont need em, i make em myself.
after the 2014 regulation of "explosive precursor" law 30% h2o2 was completely banned and all nitrate containing chemicals were banned or required a permit.

hah, if i need 30% h2o2 il just make stronger than 30% h2o2 from 12% one, and if i need nitrates il piss in a pile of hay for 6 months and leech out the nitrates.

zed - 6-4-2016 at 12:23

Huh? There aren't really very many government restrictions. Not in the U.S., anyway.

I can buy most things without real trouble. Other things, I need a permit.

These odious conditions unfairly restrict my ability to produce metric tons of meth, and likewise .... colossal weapons of mass destruction, but I have learned to live with my disappointment.

karlos³ - 6-4-2016 at 12:33

If we would even need a permit to buy NaCl, it would be perfect.
So many permits would be in exist, who should have check them all?
That is the situation in my country, I don´t fear to fill out any permit, as long as I have many permits to fill out and every other customer as well.
Flood them with uncheckable permits! :-)
Still getting anything I want to have, no questions asked.

@zed:
[irony]
It is sad how us amateur chemists are prohibited from producing metric tons of drugs and weapons of mass destruction, but well, I think I can live with that too.
[/irony off ;)]

aga - 6-4-2016 at 12:51

Once i found out where to look, i can easily get bulk qtys of the three principle acids at a good concentration and reasonable purity (for the price) plus many other reagents, all in bulk and pretty cheap.

Then again, i don't need/want any drug-specific stuff, so i guess that makes it easier.

Flour, Petrol, even Carbon can be used as an explosive precursor, so the whole 'it can be used to make a bomb' is a totally groundless argument for banning anything. May as well ban Rocks as they can be used as weapons.

Can't imagine what would happen if Carbon was illegal to possess (or be made of).

unionised - 6-4-2016 at 13:01

Quote: Originally posted by urenthesage  
Most of you have probably had to deal with government restrictions on importing, buying, and selling (if that applies to you). Are they not the most rediculous thing ever

[Edited on 5-4-2016 by urenthesage]

Nope, they are not nearly as ridiculous as the UK's latest "Psychoactive Substances Act.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2016/2/contents/enacted/...

which includes such things as "(1)A person commits an offence if—

(a)the person intentionally produces a psychoactive substance,"
Now the definition of such a substance is
"In this Act “psychoactive substance” means any substance which—

(a)is capable of producing a psychoactive effect in a person who consumes it"
And that includes things like adreanalin, dopamine etc.
So, if you deliberately do something you enjoy you are technically in breach of this act because it doesn't exclude endogenous production within your own brain.
But the stupid doesn't stop there.
It also includes this
"In this Act “prohibited activity” means any of the following activities—
(a) producing a psychoactive substance that is likely to be consumed by
individuals for its psychoactive effects;
(b) supplying such a substance;
(c) offering to supply such a substance;
(d) importing such a substance;
(e) exporting such a substance;
(f) assisting or encouraging the carrying on of a prohibited activity listed
in any of paragraphs (a) to (e)."

now, as far as I can tell, teaching chemistry to people would assist them with producing a psychoactive drug.
So the legislation bans the teaching of chemistry.
That's pretty damned stupid but that's not the pinnacle of dimwittedness.

Imagine that someone starts off with no knowledge of drugs, and they read the Act.
After reading it they will be better informed about the nature of psychoactive substances and will therefore, have been assisted in the process of importing, exporting buying or making those drugs. They will have been assisted by the Act itself

but assisting those processes is an offence under the act.

So this act of parliament actually bans itself.

MeshPL - 9-4-2016 at 23:41

I said that in Poland restrictions are not that bad. Soon they may become. Well, easy acces nitrates may become past very soon. :( The government is working on new restrictions to fit UE norms and it's not good. :(

Mailinmypocket - 10-4-2016 at 13:40

This is a pretty interesting episode of marketplace, didn't know cadmium was available in such high purity...

http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/m/episodes/2015-2016/toxic-jew...

hyfalcon - 11-4-2016 at 02:59

I'm in CO and I get a geographic restriction on that video.

Morgan - 11-4-2016 at 04:01

I couldn't view it either but this may be it on youtube?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=208-irQ1Yus

[Edited on 11-4-2016 by Morgan]

Mailinmypocket - 11-4-2016 at 04:13

Yes that's it. Sorry I didn't realize there was a stupid restriction.

arkoma - 11-4-2016 at 07:27

Been perusing that psychoactive control act in the UK--scariest part are the search provisions

unionised - 11-4-2016 at 12:23

Quote: Originally posted by arkoma  
Been perusing that psychoactive control act in the UK--scariest part are the search provisions

The scariest part is that, even after they were told by everybody, (notably the police) that it was ridiculous, they still brought it in.

Our government has lost the plot.

ave369 - 12-4-2016 at 03:48

Quote: Originally posted by Fegie  

The problem is that when you boil down battery acid it often has impurities in it that leaves it brown...


Don't see any problems in that. When you concentrate it hard enough, the brown gunk precipitates. And some brands of the Bat do not produce brown gunk at all, unless a fly falls into the acid.

aga - 12-4-2016 at 11:44

Whatever organic crap is in there, adding a small quantity<sup>*</sup> of even 3% H2O2 and stirring makes it completely clear within a minute or two.

<sup>*</sup>not sure how to calculate the stoichimetry for a whole Fly.

Half a fly (a fly fraction) is even harder to work out.

There is a Special Case if only the Wings are missing when you can re-name it 'a Walk' and calculate accordingly.

chemrox - 12-4-2016 at 16:07

Quote: Originally posted by Alkoxide  
Many politicians are a special kind of special. They pass these laws for public appeal so they can get re-elected, without realizing who it will affect other than those making drugs. They are not thought through and are often illogical. Be thankful they were dumb enough to leave loopholes for us. In a way, these laws are also what makes this hobby special. We put our heads together and devise innovative solutions to side-step new laws. Its a challenge.

I went to see a politician to protest planned restrictions on I2, P, antihistamines, etc. and was told by her staffer (she wouldn't be bothered with a constituent) that the realtors wanted the legislation to stop meth cooks. It pretty much worked. This accomplished three things: the price of meth went up, the cartels took over and made millions, the wars in Mexico got more violent. However the realtors don't have to worry about their overpriced apartments getting contaminated or burned down. Good job politicians! Same as ever.. looking out for the money train.

arkoma - 12-4-2016 at 17:31

Quote: Originally posted by Alkoxide  
the price of meth went up,


WRONG. I started doing methamphetamine in 1982. It is cheaper NOW than at anytime in my life. $3000 POUNDS in Dallas, Texas. Thank God I outgrew it finally.

*edit* quote BB code screwed up

[Edited on 4-13-2016 by arkoma]