Sciencemadness Discussion Board

FIRE!!!!! A Warning

arkoma - 7-11-2015 at 12:04

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

A warning. Was set up and running a distillation last night and forgot about the MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF GEAR.

A fire extinguisher.

Was using canola oil in a pot on an electric stove to heat my flask, went to piss and heard that dread 'whump'. Oil boiled over and flashed.

I HAD A NEAR MISS. Got it out, but ruint a Polo shirt and a fleece blanket putting it out. Broke my new vigreux column. But no injuries, cops, or damage to house.

I bought an extinguisher today.

aga - 7-11-2015 at 12:27

You left a distillation unattended to take a pee ?

Surely you should have dumped the wee into your Nitrate Fermenting bucket whilst keeping an eye on the distillation.

What ? No Nitrate Fermentation bucket ? Jeez.

Shame about the Vigreux.

Polo shirt and fleece were clearly not 100% cotton, so better off without

arkoma - 7-11-2015 at 12:44

At least the litre of ethanol was UNHARMED

szuko03 - 7-11-2015 at 12:59

That sounds scary and to be quite honest one of the reasons i never used an oil bath. I literally waited the weeks while i saved for a heating mantle just because its my parents house and in order to make them comfortable i needed to say "its ok i have a cool to the touch fabric lined heating mantle made for this and a fire extinguisher i bought just for this space" I would hate to see what they would do if i burned the house down at this age being "smart" rather then when i was 14 and blowing shit up.

Great warning though seriously, if not for my parents demanding I consider the fact this is their house and they are close to retirement and its not my property to ruin probably would have maybe put off the investment or something as its always a "it will never happen to me" event. Sorry for your loss :(

Magpie - 7-11-2015 at 13:18

There are times when I want to use an oil bath instead of a mantle. I highly recommend use of DOT5 silicone oil brake fluid. It's non-flammable and good for ~250°C.

JJay - 7-11-2015 at 13:30

I always put a thermometer in the oil bath... TBH, I'm no more afraid of an oil bath used in chemistry than I am of one used for making French fries... but I should probably pick up a fire extinguisher.

I usually use soybean oil since it is usually the cheapest (sold as "vegetable oil") and is good to fairly high temperatures.

careysub - 7-11-2015 at 13:37

I ordered several pounds of aluminum pellets on eBay to use as a bath instead of an oil bath.

arkoma - 7-11-2015 at 14:44

I am partial to "fry daddy" type appliances. Alas I don't have one ATM. One with DOT 5 brake fluid sounds like a GREAT idea actually!

skip - 7-11-2015 at 15:23

Hate to say this but, I have always had one and on the ready.. If it can burn Ive got one 10 ft away from my work so I can get to it. Had a buddy of mine over one day and he seen the extinguisher and asked if my hobbies included fire fighting . If you expect it, 9 time outa 10 it will never happen, but unprepared you can count on it. Glad to hear you went unscathed and wiser.

arkoma - 7-11-2015 at 15:53

My lab space out west (Arizona), I had an extinguisher. Never needed it..................

Bert - 7-11-2015 at 16:26

Sorry about your issue, glad you made it through without serious consequences.

I have managed a restaurant. Oil fires scare the fuck out of me. First place I had a restaurant job as a teenager: The owner upped his insurance and "forgot" to turn the deep fryers off while closing one night, when he needed remodeling cash. FUCK!!! He got away with it. We were out of work for about 6 months.

I did property management for over a decade, and dealt with alarms, extinguishers and inspections. And the aftermath of renters seriously screwing up with fireplaces, candles, toasters and grease.

I am used to bringing multiple means of putting out fires to my jobs.

A dry powder extinguisher, to make the fire inspector happy! And who knows, maybe the truck will catch fire and it will actually be useful?!

A compressed air over water extinguisher, to put out the kinds of fires that pyrotechnists actually face... And cause. Paper, cardboard, dry grass.

Wet brooms for outdoor work, puts out small grass fires most efficiently of anything.

On a stage, or if a liquid burn is on the agenda, CO2 in addition to the water extinguisher. Doesn't mess everything up, ruin the electrical equipment & etc. like the dry powder or water will.

When doing lab work, probably ALL 3 types are within easy reach. And more are by every exit at our facility.

Yes people, the best time to think about safety equipment is BEFORE the accident...

aga - 7-11-2015 at 16:32

As they are cheap, i got Two.

One is Inside the Shed, the other Outside.

If i have to exit in a hurry, there's still one available for use.

(the Outside one is mostly to put Me out if i happened to be on fire again)

elementcollector1 - 7-11-2015 at 20:18

Sand bath for me. Has never failed once.

JJay - 7-11-2015 at 20:23

I've had sand baths break a lot of glass; that is the major reason I prefer oil baths.

Oh, and also, I usually stir oil baths... they heat more evenly that way and are less likely to have high temperature pockets (so it's safer). I read one book that recommended using a paperclip in the oil bath for stirring... that works if you have a high-end stirrer with a really powerful magnet, but usually I use a stirbar.

[Edited on 8-11-2015 by JJay]

JJay - 7-11-2015 at 22:47

...why use an oil bath for heating ethanol... instead of a water bath?

Sulaiman - 8-11-2015 at 01:49

One thing I bought early in this hobby was three fire extinguishers
two for the shed/lab and an extra one for the kitchen.
so far a waste of money ... :)
but they make me and my family feel more comfortable.

hissingnoise - 8-11-2015 at 02:15

Quote:
My lab space out west (Arizona), I had an extinguisher. Never needed it..................

But, but, there will be those times when some quick dry ice is needed, even in the desert, and you'll be sooo relieved you have that essential fire extinguisher . . . ?

metalresearcher - 8-11-2015 at 04:27

Oil baths are particularly a hazard. Use a water bath instead if possible.

Anyway, I have a fire extinguisher and a fire blanket near my fumehood (which is already lined with fire-retarding fermacell and had YTONG cell concrete on its floor) as I use the fumehood sometimes for melting metals or electric arc experiments.

And NEVER leave running experiments involving high temperatures and / or flammable stuff unattended, particularly when indoors ! If yoy really need to pee, put your dick into a bucket or even a large beaker from your lab. That urine can be dumped into the loo later on.


arkoma - 8-11-2015 at 10:04

Quote: Originally posted by JJay  
...why use an oil bath for heating ethanol... instead of a water bath?


BP's are so close, and I'm impatient. D'OH. Did I mention I have attacks of stupidity? Thankfully none have been fatal yet.

An electric mantle is on the horizon.

zombiedude1 - 8-11-2015 at 12:51

Good thing everything is okay besides your poor column.
Yep, always keep a fire extinguisher around. I also keep hazmat blankets around too.

I spilled oil by accident many times and the worst part is cleaning it up... It gets everywhere!

arkoma - 8-11-2015 at 13:35

bought some "Marine Grade" JB Weld today. Break on column is clean, so I'm going to try it.

careysub - 8-11-2015 at 19:56

Quote: Originally posted by careysub  
I ordered several pounds of aluminum pellets on eBay to use as a bath instead of an oil bath.


I was asked about this by Bert:
"Thanks for posting on Al metal shot as an alternative to oil baths, could you expand a little on that? Size/Dia., cost per volume, any comments on heat Xfer efficiency vs. liquid bath or other issues?"

First I draw attention to product sold specifically for this purpose "Lab Armor Beads":
http://www.thomassci.com/Laboratory-Supplies/Glass-Beads/_/L...

Read their material for the pitch on the advantages of an aluminum bead heat bath.

Lab Armor Beads are flattened spheres, which slightly enhances packing efficiency (and thus heat transfer), and I am sure they are very nice, but they cost $100 a liter! The random packing efficiency of M&Ms (a nice oblate spheroid) is 0.685, for spheres it is 0.64. So a liter of these beads weighs 1.85 kg, giving a cost of $54/kg. Aluminum's metal market price is $1.45/kg, so this seems a little extreme for a mark-up.

I found aluminum pellets on eBay for $22/kg (including shipping, 10 lb lot), also (same vendor, different pricing model) $11/kg, plus $10 shipping (flat additional fee, buy 5 kg and it amortizes to $13/kg - that is how I bought it).

These are cut aluminum wire pieces, a little squat. I doubt the edges of the cut wire will cause a problem scratching glass, but if I am wrong I intend to tumble them with sand to smooth them out (load the tumbler barrel half full of aluminum, 1/4 with sand, it should take only a few hours).

The problem reported here about sand baths cracking glass is due to the very low thermal conductivity of sand - 0.2 W/(m K). Wet sand is 2. Aluminum is 200.

JJay - 8-11-2015 at 20:52

I'm interested in trying aluminum pellets... I wonder if they will work ok with immersion heaters.

metalresearcher - 9-11-2015 at 01:15

You can cast them yourself by slowly pouring liquid Al into water and moving the crucible to spread the pour. Otherwise it will get larger contiguous blocks.

JJay - 9-11-2015 at 02:05

That sounds dangerous, but I might try it.

skip - 9-11-2015 at 06:28

I tried to epoxy a condenser years ago, it held for awhile then broke. I wouldn't trust it, you may have another fire. I have also tried to epoxy the drip tube fro a vacuum adapter and that held awhile then came apart too.

arkoma - 9-11-2015 at 06:47

used "marine grade" jb weld. alleged to be heat, moisture and chemical RESISTANT. Figure I'll reflux some acetone through it to test it.

OUTSIDE;

EXTINGUISHER HANDY;

WITH BOILING WATER OUT OF A TEAKETTLE FOR A HEAT SOURCE.

Allowing a full 24 hour cure on it too. Used regular jb weld on my partial plate with great success years sago, and saliva enzymes are hell on most adhesives.

careysub - 9-11-2015 at 18:34

Quote: Originally posted by arkoma  
used "marine grade" jb weld. alleged to be heat, moisture and chemical RESISTANT. Figure I'll reflux some acetone through it to test it.

OUTSIDE;

EXTINGUISHER HANDY;

WITH BOILING WATER OUT OF A TEAKETTLE FOR A HEAT SOURCE.

Allowing a full 24 hour cure on it too. Used regular jb weld on my partial plate with great success years sago, and saliva enzymes are hell on most adhesives.


If you want temperature resistance you'd be better off with the regular JB Weld. Marine grade comes with no temperature rating. The regular JB Weld is rated to 550F however. The marine type is probably more chemical resistant however.

Epoxies in general are not highly temperature resistant, some require high temperature post cures to obtain temperature resistance, or use more exotic and costly formulations. If this is important always check the manufacturer's literature.