Sciencemadness Discussion Board

fluorescent materials

GodOfChaos - 19-10-2015 at 08:52

Hi,
Are there any household or simple to find materials that glow under x-rays?
I have a strong x-ray source and until my intensifier cassette arrives, I would like to do some crude xray photography.

Ozone - 20-10-2015 at 04:25

Probably not. You'd need a scintillation material: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillator

BGO is a good one that's less sensitive to mechanical shock and moisture than NaI(Tl).

There are liquid organic scintillators (Usually POP-POPOP via toluene in excited-state) and plastics, but the sensitivity isn't very good for higher energy x-rays and gammas (density is too low).

There is always sensitized ZnS (the oldest one), but the efficiency is low in general, and better for higher energy particles like alpha/beta.

Still, this would be for imaging (tau is relatively short), not photography. For photography, no fluor is required...simply put the object between the source (I'm assuming some sort of collimated electron tube) and some black and white film that is sealed from light, and irradiate. Develop the film to see what you got. It will take some work to determine the optimum accelerating voltage, time and distance (both between the source--sample) to reliably get the best results.

Look out for back-scatter, and try and run the thing with some kind of shielding and/or via remote control. A counter/scaler with a proper LEG (low energy gamma/x-ray) scintillation probe (or failing that, some kind of personal monitor) to monitor your area would probably be a good idea as well.

O3


neptunium - 20-10-2015 at 06:10

Quote: Originally posted by GodOfChaos  

I have a strong x-ray source and until my intensifier cassette arrives, I would like to do some crude xray photography.


how strong ? because we are talking seriously strong to even show up on the intensifier ! you must have an Xray tube .
what voltage do you run it ?



handX2 - Copy.bmp - 108kB
this is a small tube at 40Kv it already heat up quite a bit with a 1mA current and pushes out well over 4000 Rad/h a foot away..
nothing to be joking about.

GodOfChaos - 26-10-2015 at 01:49

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
Quote: Originally posted by GodOfChaos  

I have a strong x-ray source and until my intensifier cassette arrives, I would like to do some crude xray photography.


how strong ? because we are talking seriously strong to even show up on the intensifier ! you must have an Xray tube .
what voltage do you run it ?




this is a small tube at 40Kv it already heat up quite a bit with a 1mA current and pushes out well over 4000 Rad/h a foot away..
nothing to be joking about.


90kV at 3mA c.e.i opx90-2 xray tube most of the time i use arround 50kV and 500uA

[Edited on 26-10-2015 by GodOfChaos]

GodOfChaos - 26-10-2015 at 01:55

Quote: Originally posted by Ozone  
Probably not. You'd need a scintillation material: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scintillator

BGO is a good one that's less sensitive to mechanical shock and moisture than NaI(Tl).

There are liquid organic scintillators (Usually POP-POPOP via toluene in excited-state) and plastics, but the sensitivity isn't very good for higher energy x-rays and gammas (density is too low).

There is always sensitized ZnS (the oldest one), but the efficiency is low in general, and better for higher energy particles like alpha/beta.

Still, this would be for imaging (tau is relatively short), not photography. For photography, no fluor is required...simply put the object between the source (I'm assuming some sort of collimated electron tube) and some black and white film that is sealed from light, and irradiate. Develop the film to see what you got. It will take some work to determine the optimum accelerating voltage, time and distance (both between the source--sample) to reliably get the best results.

Look out for back-scatter, and try and run the thing with some kind of shielding and/or via remote control. A counter/scaler with a proper LEG (low energy gamma/x-ray) scintillation probe (or failing that, some kind of personal monitor) to monitor your area would probably be a good idea as well.

O3



I have a geiger caunter and I use a lot of lead shielding... everything is done in a lead lined box. I've heard some people use glow in the dark stickers but I had no success...

GodOfChaos - 26-10-2015 at 04:54

good point, neptunium, I meant xray imaging.

neptunium - 26-10-2015 at 07:54

90Kv is pretty impressive! Is it a home built power source or ebay Glassman Spellman type of supply?
Even at 500μA you still getting a healthy dose!!
With a higher voltage you should be able to go through denser material ...
I think a chest X Ray runs at 180Kv for a fraction of a second .
Did you finally received the intensifier cassetes ?

neptunium - 26-10-2015 at 07:56



x rays max 40kv.bmp - 949kB


This is the X Ray spectrum of my tube at 40Of

GodOfChaos - 26-10-2015 at 08:50

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
90Kv is pretty impressive! Is it a home built power source or ebay Glassman Spellman type of supply?
Even at 500μA you still getting a healthy dose!!
With a higher voltage you should be able to go through denser material ...
I think a chest X Ray runs at 180Kv for a fraction of a second .
Did you finally received the intensifier cassetes ?

I've built the power supply myself with 2flybacks and a multiplier. Most of the time i use arround 40-50kV. I live in Lithuania and the cassettes are from US, so it takes a bit of time... I remember when I had an chest xray, they used 300kV. Sadly I cannot mesure the spectrum of mine... :(
Geiger caunter picks up 4-7x the background at most few meters away, still I don't play with the thing too much without any reason... I made few ccd irradiation pics and penetration tests...

[Edited on 26-10-2015 by GodOfChaos]

finalradia.jpg - 91kB

[Edited on 26-10-2015 by GodOfChaos]

neptunium - 26-10-2015 at 18:27

Yeah the ccd will get you nowhere by itself. To avoid that over pixellisation I set mine next to a lead wall looking at a mirror . good luck with your set up and post some results !

neptunium - 26-10-2015 at 18:28

Here is a PlayStation 2 controller....

ps2cotrollerX.bmp - 108kB

GodOfChaos - 27-10-2015 at 11:20

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
Yeah the ccd will get you nowhere by itself. To avoid that over pixellisation I set mine next to a lead wall looking at a mirror . good luck with your set up and post some results !

Very lovely photo. If I may, what tube do you use? (model, manufacturer)
I'm thinking of trying to do few photos on B&W film, if I can get some ( I have no skill in developing films...) I'll post the results here.

Update

GodOfChaos - 30-10-2015 at 12:37

I bougt some polaroid films and tried to use them to make xray radiographs, first allmost successful picture. This is an xray of a lighter. More work needed to perfect my technique. I had trouble developing these films without an actual polaroid camera... You can still make out some details, the piezo igniter springs and the general shape...
Exposed for arround 30s at 50kV 1mA.

Any advice?

lighter.jpg - 73kB

[Edited on 30-10-2015 by GodOfChaos]

[Edited on 30-10-2015 by GodOfChaos]

lighter1.jpg - 184kB

success

GodOfChaos - 31-10-2015 at 10:02

First successful poto. 50kV 1mA, 1min exposure

ziebtuvelis.jpg - 702kB

neptunium - 31-10-2015 at 10:51

Very nice ! And clean too....congratulations!!
I've used a small dentistry tube rated for 80Kv found on ebay some years ago..

GodOfChaos - 31-10-2015 at 12:41

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
Very nice ! And clean too....congratulations!!
I've used a small dentistry tube rated for 80Kv found on ebay some years ago..

Thanks, with a Be window, I presume? succeded with developing the film using a cold laminator. The original has better details, but still, I'm very pleased. :D

Also destroyed 12films while learning lol

[Edited on 31-10-2015 by GodOfChaos]

[Edited on 31-10-2015 by GodOfChaos]

neptunium - 31-10-2015 at 16:30

Hey don't feel bad that s what it's all about ! Home science is not cheap!!!

GodOfChaos - 31-10-2015 at 16:51

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
Hey don't feel bad that s what it's all about ! Home science is not cheap!!!

I don't! :D Thinking of what to xray next :D

neptunium - 1-11-2015 at 11:32

how about a PC mouse?


mouseX.bmp - 108kB

neptunium - 1-11-2015 at 11:45

or a TV remote?





directTV remote_C.bmp - 428kB
a smoke detector?

smokedetectorX.bmp - 108kB

GodOfChaos - 1-11-2015 at 13:45

Very nice! I'll xray a phone charger tomorrow :D

GodOfChaos - 2-11-2015 at 11:58

DDR3 RAM 50kV 1mA 45s exposure.
Probably needed 1min or 1.5min of exposure for more visable detail. In real life I can see all the little traces. The photo is too dark for my camera... Well, I tried... Proper intensifier screen is needed. (Still on the Fujifilm Instax mini films...)


Perhaps ZnS synthesis and doping with Ag?

originalram.png - 6.1MB




[Edited on 2-11-2015 by GodOfChaos]

snapram1.jpg - 189kB

neptunium - 2-11-2015 at 14:36

so these are pictures of the picture you took?
I thought you said you had a CCD camera?
you could hook it up facing a mirror that reflect the intensifier...
with a computer reading the CCD camera you`ll get much better and easier to transfer results!
thats what i did!
this is a microwave detector


microwavedetectorX.bmp - 108kB

GodOfChaos - 3-11-2015 at 09:00

Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
so these are pictures of the picture you took?
I thought you said you had a CCD camera?
you could hook it up facing a mirror that reflect the intensifier...
with a computer reading the CCD camera you`ll get much better and easier to transfer results!
thats what i did!
this is a microwave detector
You misinunderstood, my intensifier screens haven't arrived yet.
In the meantime, I used instant film to make few photos without any intensifier, hence the long exposure times...