Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Can butane carry microorganisms similar to steam distillation?

mflek - 27-9-2015 at 03:36

I passed butane through some plant matter grown "organically" in Eureka California and then ran the butane through a 2 liter bottle and then through a metal tube. The butane was burned as intended.

A few weeks later the apparatus was discovered...

It had multiple types of microorganisms growing inside of the water. Prior to the experiment the water came directly from the water outlet in the back yard.

My question is could the butane carry over microorganisms without killing them?

Tsjerk - 27-9-2015 at 05:32

The water from an outlet wherever is everything but sterile. Besides that, I wouldn't be surprised if butane could carry over living cells, as it would snap-freeze them. Spores definitely survive conditions like that.

PHILOU Zrealone - 27-9-2015 at 10:16

Some anaerobic micro-organism do survive (and even grow specifically) in intestinal tract or in sewers where CO2, H2S, CH4, ...gases are to be found owing to their reductive potential (from sulfate, carbonate, carboxylic acids).

Some are devoted to bio-remidate contaminated soil/water polluted by petroleum products...

So yes they can survive in butane and be transported by it...but the contamination more than certainly comes from the water backyard outlet and not from the butane itself.

Little_Ghost_again - 6-10-2015 at 20:12

was the vessel sealed? if not then the microbes would populate the water droplet anyway. Some organisms can use butane as a food source and as stated spores from the water can flash freeze

violet sin - 6-10-2015 at 21:15

the butane was led through plant "matter" in a cold state, collected and vaporized off to leave a waxy "substance" behind. no doubt "medical" in nature. and hella illegal in California. prescription or no, doesn't matter. I live here also( cali ), just passed through Eureka sunday, dang it was a warm afternoon. not that any one here is going to try to report such an instance.

in the state that the butane exits the device, it is a strong solvent, taking waxes, oils and such right out of plant tissue that is dry or not. I don't think a whole lot could easily take the cold and loss of vital bits/fluids, though nature has a way of surviving. but water left in a device is open to the air and subject to population. the wax and oils aren't the only things that come over. sugars do as well. they are water soluble. the "product" is in many cases, heated with water allowing much of the soluble things and extra butane to depart from the desired medicine. which after cooling, is worked (rolled etc. ) to expel the excess water, leaving a brittle amber substance that is used.

might go something like this:
1) butane is expelled from cans held upsidedown to encourage cold liquid instead of vapor to escape.
2) butane poured/passed through plant material -> catch tray
3) heat catch tray with warm water -> expel majority of butane liquid as a gas
4) add boiling water to contents of catch tray -> absorb soluble substances and trapped butane( or vac chamber it)
5) cool to solidify and then work water out -> clean brittle amber substance
6) medicate

so your waste water, if above process was used, has nutrients in it. left unattended it will colonize stuff like crazy, smell bad and look worse.

what was the purpose of the 2 liter bottle here? a catch funnel for the butane from cans, so you didn't get blow through on your metal tube? and where was the water exactly?

Tsjerk - 6-10-2015 at 22:21

Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  
and as stated spores from the water can flash freeze


What I tried to say is that living (metabolizing cells might be a better word) cells can be flash frozen, the spores are already in a comparable state; a sort of freeze dried state.

[Edited on 7-10-2015 by Tsjerk]

Detonationology - 7-10-2015 at 05:13

Quote: Originally posted by violet sin  

what was the purpose of the 2 liter bottle here? a catch funnel for the butane from cans, so you didn't get blow through on your metal tube? and where was the water exactly?

The butane gas was most likely bubbled through the water and ignited at the end of the metal pipe after running through the herb, in order to prevent the flame from going back into the system, through the tube and into the vacuum chamber (probably contaminating the medicine and ruining the vacuum pump).
Quote:

...then ran the butane through a 2 liter bottle and then through a metal tube. The butane was burned as intended.

violet sin - 7-10-2015 at 07:05

never was a fan of the vac chamber... where does the other 90+% of the butane go in this scenario? just into the atmosphere like usual, and this maneuver is only to vent vac pull-off gas... otherwise, vacuuming the entirety of the butane + medicine sol, it would foam like a mo-fo. no doubt into hoses and pumps.

soo much better to just use plain water, to temper it. no flaming off-gas in use which is the main goal. but it also pulls out soluble plant materials that come across in the extraction. you can loose some of the softer fruity/floral notes of the medicine, heating it in water, but you aren't burning sugar, and it can be a fair amount less harsh.

*** or so I've heard***

I haven't seen any one doing this in a while, but eureka would be one place I could see ;) I was passing through on my way back from hunting, no buck this time :( , and noticed the oddest thing... trimmigrants,, I.e. people from overseas up there for trim jobs, wild stuff man, wild.

Detonationology - 7-10-2015 at 08:11

Quote: Originally posted by violet sin  
this maneuver is only to vent vac pull-off gas... otherwise, vacuuming the entirety of the butane + medicine sol, it would foam like a mo-fo. no doubt into hoses and pumps.

Lukewarm water was probably used to evap most of the butane off until it would not readily boil, then placed in a vacuum to drive off the rest.

Little_Ghost_again - 7-10-2015 at 09:22

Actually the method shouldnt involve any water, you take a tube with a small hole each end, at one end you discharge the whole can of lighter refill gas and let the other end drip into a container. The gas evaporates and leaves behind the oil alone if done correctly. While the product is a class A drug in the Uk it fetches an extremely high price, SWHIM has an older brother and I have seen the magic process. I have also used it a few times on other far less exotic plants.
Not economical on the legal plants I play with but a good way to get a high quality product for other herbs.
Pointless burning the butane just use a lighter refill can full and and do at a distance, it gives a good yield and the product is clean with gas evaporated away.

aga - 7-10-2015 at 12:00

The short answer is Yes.

Living things tend to survive all sorts of extreme environments.

Being sure of killing 100% of living stuff is really very hard indeed.

Extracting with Butane should be made extra illegal because :-

The resulting oil is horrible.
The resulting oil is horribly Potent.
It uses up precious Butane, and working cigarette lighters are also required.

violet sin - 7-10-2015 at 14:10

Detonationology: "Lukewarm water was probably used to evap most of the butane off until it would not readily boil, then placed in a vacuum to drive off the rest."

not a fan, not a fan at all. you don't get rid of plenty of contaminants when you don't expose the oil to heated water. then hand work it. it just ain't the same, no craftsmanship.
------------------------------------
LGA: "The gas evaporates and leaves behind the oil alone if done correctly."
not true, wax, oil, sugars and more are pulled... look into winterizing. in alcohol solutions meant to pull oils out also, a good long chill will settle waxes that were soluble at higher temps.

the lukewarm water is used under the catch plate, not in contact with the sample solution. the thermal exchange between warm water and liquid butane drives off a bunch of it. not all by any means. when you see a lazy cook's work, it gets all super gooey even when cold. it flares up b/c smoking drives off butane, and in general it is a poor product.

but vac attacking it, equally as lazy
--------------------------------------
aga; it is already super criminalized here... same charges as meth manufacture. even if you don't use butane, or high pressure CO2, the manufacture of concentrated substance by water and ice alone, not even as a solvent, it strongly frowned upon. like instant matching nickel plated bracelets, frowned upon. in that scenario, the temperature of the ice hardens the oil bits, so they can be knocked off the material and strained out... no solvent, not chemicals, but a clever physical method to separate, and still a big no no. the fact that it is horribly potent is just one way they legitimize the fight. still BS in my book, though it affects my life 0%. perhaps even a negative percentage of impact, as I don't participate in the culture any further than wearing a tiedye and having a beard/long hair.

but growing up where I did, mendocino county Ca, certain life lessons were unavoidable. it's just everywhere like tea in some countries...

Detonationology - 7-10-2015 at 15:24

SWIM has some decent experience making quick wash isopropanol (QWISO) wax. The 91% iso and herb is chilled in the freezer until ice cold. 7 grams of flower is washed with 100mL for 30 seconds (to avoid excessive chlorophyll contamination), strained through a stainless steel strainer first, then through a 5µ filter. The process is repeated at least five times, until a decent quantity of pale-green solution is acquired. The product is dried in a food dehydrator w/ constant ventilation @ 150˚F for 12hrs, then placed into a vacuum chamber for 3-5 minutes for good measure. The average yield from 7 grams of flower has been 1 gram of rock-solid shatter. Believe me, the quality of the product is higher than any other that has been encountered here on this side of the US.

violet sin - 7-10-2015 at 15:42

" Believe me, the quality of the product is higher than any other that has been encountered here on this side of the US."

lol, no offense, but what number of years are you sampling across? I have seen a *lot* of different methods, over quite a few years,... every one wants to tell a chemistry/scienc guy, like me, how they do it best, because people know some one who would appreciate the thought that went into it.

you telling me that 5x wash of 7g( or any scale of that) is at all comparable to the single wash of 1oz+ material slowly evaporated (while covered with porous paper) on a warm day w/o direct heat? and that's not to say it is the high point of all methods either. just a better virgin pressing method of what you describe. 5x pulls are for salable quantities, not personal high scores private stash level stuff. Hippies man, they try EVERYTHING... more ways than a guy could try to count, and all so proud of their way, usually rightfully so.

it's not a bad procedure, but it's FAR from pinnacle, sorry. I have NO ego involved in this, as I don't do it or use it. but I sure have seen a lot, and I do know the outcomes...

Detonationology - 7-10-2015 at 15:59

Quote: Originally posted by violet sin  
lol, no offense, but what number of years are you sampling across? I have seen a *lot* of different methods, over quite a few years,... every one wants to tell a chemistry/scienc guy, like me, how they do it best, because people know some one who would appreciate the thought that went into it.

None taken. You must not have understood what I meant by "this side of the country." I've seen shit made with Jack fucking Daniels around here because people don't have the ability to purchase it from a dispensary and they don't want to spend money on Everclear, hexane or butane. I most certainly do not claim to know the best method for making wax, and honestly, QWISO is not the most efficient method by any means. The only reason that isopropanol by is used by SWIM is because of the purity, accessibility and cost. If only the QWISO method of production was more known, maybe the lunatics around here would be enlightened enough to catch on and stop making disgusting, highly contaminated filth.[Edited on 10-8-2015 by Detonationology]

[Edited on 10-8-2015 by Detonationology]

violet sin - 7-10-2015 at 16:40

there is nothing wrong with iso- variety. the guy I referenced, would do it supper hippie rigged. pop a small hole in a quart ziplock bag, add a bunch of material, pour in the contents of a large bottle isopropyl and drain straight through in a few sec to a catch pan. his "claim to fame" was that despite the loss of quantity in a single pass batch, it tasted great, had almost no chlorophyll and people liked it. second and third passes were retained for personal.

the "people" are the determining factor in how great the idea is. whether or not the quantity to quality work. if in the end, theys happy, so are you. I knew people trying vodka, everclear, and home distilled versions of store bought alcohol. rubbing alcohol, butane also. never met a CO2 guy first hand. methanol, seen it. also all grades of starting from shade leaves to already processed bubble. most had their niche for one reason or another. but I was in highschool when 215 passed, and before it was made clear that concentrated was not cool. so a lot of people messed around, some for pleasure others for profit. shucks, I have seen some do it just for braggin rights :)

the thing is, if people actually get into it and treat it like a science, they can learn a lot and better the outcome. there are a TON of sites about the processes and do's/don'ts from both chemistry and hands on type authors. granted we had a lot of practice because of the early legalization, extra leavings from the main product and nice climate, but they were doing stuff like this far before it was legal. I saw an old vial that was made in the 70's with ether... well before my time.

the fact that I have this knowledge, was merely the coincidence of time, place and age group :P

edit, sorry been trying to cahnge my oil for a while now.. but the ways I have highlighted are far from the best, your buddys isn't poor, arguing about the best is nothing short of arguing about how long a piece of string is- when no one has a tape measure :)

[Edited on 8-10-2015 by violet sin]

Detonationology - 7-10-2015 at 17:24

Quote: Originally posted by violet sin  
methanol, seen it.

Hmm, I'm never heard of anybody using that one. What were the results like? Various solvents and strains can have very different textures, consistencies, and colors. I've heard on a different forum that hexane or acetone are some of the best solvents to use, w/o quantitative data whatsoever! I have also heard from a more reliable resource that CBD medicine is very soluble in ethanol. Does any body know of a solubility table that one may find for ∆9-THC? Probably not, but any kind of %yield that can be provided is acceptable. According to the MSDS for Heet gas line antifreeze, it contains 99% MeOH and a "proprietary additive." Assuming what I know about most other solvents, the additive would most likely be denatonium benzoate, which should be able to be distilled effectively to purify the methanol.

[Edited on 10-8-2015 by Detonationology]

Little_Ghost_again - 8-10-2015 at 04:35

Hmm I need to make a mock up! Aquarium vacuum tube was used 16" long, supercritical extraction I think its called, The oil I saw drip from the end was light/mid amber in colour.
NO IDEA how good/bad it is/was because I dont take drugs, but there is many happy customers of SWHIM brother.
I know it works on tomato plants as well as that was what I am actually trying to extract (the smell), but its too costy for that. In Uk I am told any oil that has a green colour is considered crap! I dont know personally so cant comment, I saw the process because I wanted to try it for my own tomato project with soap.
I might ask to go back and have another look, I might have missed something but there was certainly nothing but oil that I saw. But what you say makes sense so maybe I need to take a closer look at what was inside the bottom of the tube. All the best oil is Canadian or UK apparently