Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Need help in replacing flame with something else, along with finding material

zabrak999 - 26-8-2015 at 19:52

Hey bros

I have am idea for Chinese sky lanterns:

A sky lantern that'll:

1.) Take off and fly at a steady pace without a flame

2.) Material will either eventually evaporate in the sky, or shrink down to the size of a quarter.


So, are either of these possible?

Input would he fantastic appreciated...

...I understands that balloons with helium of course exist, but rather I'm thinking of something that'll make it take off at a nice steady pace.

Something that'd resemble the slow and assured take off of a flame, you know

Sulaiman - 27-8-2015 at 00:57

hot air soap bubbles ?

or make a big hydrogen bubble with nylon? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLEQyd-58gs

[Edited on 27-8-2015 by Sulaiman]

Little_Ghost_again - 27-8-2015 at 01:09

In the uk there would be a good market for this.
Many fires started by stupid use of Chinese lanterns, there was talk of banning them altogether.

What about a souped up version of the hot ice thing or something with a bit more ooomph than those hand warmer things?

Would give heat and trap that with the nylon thing over the top of lantern

[Edited on 27-8-2015 by Little_Ghost_again]

fluorescence - 27-8-2015 at 01:33

I think if you wanted to make it safe in case it crashes and might ignite something, you'll have to use
something like LED's. I remember they tried that some years ago and even had it on TV that is would be
cool to have no more graffiti but to stick an LED to a small battery and a magnet and attach it to like
street lamps. But as far as I know that didn't work out and teens rather stick to paint than lights.

But if you could fill a baloon with gas that doesn't burn and have like a weight on it so it won't shoot up
too fast and have like a small LED with a battery inside it won't catch fire but will glow in the dark.

That's what they were trying to get instead of grafiti:
http://www.instructables.com/image/FWAKQD3902EP27TLT0/Tape-t...

Varmint - 27-8-2015 at 02:59

Some of the new glow powders are very bright and long lasting, and can be mixed with clear "paint", or even bought properly mixed and ready to apply.

Perhaps you could coat both sides of a piece of cardboard with the powder, (or outside of a cylinder made from construction paper), and carry that aloft with a helium balloon.

Just a quick "charge" with long-wave UV from a BLB lamp or even just a bright white light would give hours of glow.

zabrak999 - 30-8-2015 at 21:21

Bros!



I think I came up with an idea..



Within the chinese lantern packaging, there'd be a packet of either helium or hydrogen gas - one of those two - that you'd attach to the lantern, to have it lift off.



There'd be a button on the packet of helium/hydrogen, where it'd release the gas into the packet. So, you'd out and fully expand the chinese lantern, then attach the packet of gas onto it, then press a button on the packet to release gas into it, which would then set the lantern off into the sky.



Would that work? Having a packet of floating gas that you'd attach to the lantern, to have the lantern lift off with it? Again, when ready you'd press a button on the packet, which would then interact with it by releasing the needed gas for liftoff.



Helium is pretty expensive I'm reading, as it's evidently a genuinely rare material that's only found in a handful of spots in the world.



Hydrogen however, is insanely cheaper. There's risks (flammable,potential leaks etc), but they seem to be irrelevant for this product; there'll be no flame around the lantern, and on the chinese lantern packaging, it'll clearly be labelled to keep contents inside package (to avoid gas leak from packet) until ready to use.



So, how could we incorporate hydrogen gas into the lantern? Would my hydrogen packet idea work? How could we safely store the hydrogen gas into a packet, that'd start to slowly release for a period of time, through a push of a button?




fluorescence - 30-8-2015 at 23:06

Or....you could simply add some weights to it or a long rope and you stand on that and just move your foot
so it rises. Would be a lot easier to do. The problem is in your hydrogen. I think even glass ampoules loose
hydrogen over the time so paper or whatever you want to use won't hold it for too long.

I was interested in helium for working under inert atmospheres since if you want to buy Argon you will have to
dry it and you need a huge bottle of gas and all the pressure stuff and that's not worth it if I need to fill a test tube
with some inert Gas. So I thought of a Baloon with Helium and a small glas pipe at the end so I cool control where
I needed the Helium to go. And I asked at a lokal toy store. The fill up a balloon for like under a dollar.
I think there are even party spray cans which contain helium so it's a lot easier and cheaper to handle small amounts of Helium. I'd look for a coated balloon so not the transparent ones but the blured ones, put a small LED glued to a button cell battery in there and fill it with helium.

zabrak999 - 2-9-2015 at 16:43

Alright guys, I think I came up with a solution to all this...

First, to put things into perspective - I wanted to create replicate sky lanterns, in that it'll be a balloon that'll slowly take off well beyond into the air on a lit voyage. All without actually having a cumbersome flame, along with avoiding any clean-up litter afterwords.
I thought an attached helium/hydrogen packet would work, but seems like neither would be appropriate, until hydrogen becomes safer or helium becomes cheaper (not in our lifetime).
However, I just now thought of a possible solution to all of this:

The bottom of the balloon won't be open at all. To have the balloon take off into the sky, the user will fill it once with helium on the ground, which would have it take off without any reliance on anything as it goes into the sky. So, the material will be folded like a standard deflated balloon, then it'd inflate up and launch into the sky with helium.

Here are ways in which this could happen:

1.) The package would include not only the balloons, but it'd also contain a handheld, portable canister of helium - some small device with a valve that contains helium. It'd be good for say, 20 uses or something similar - perhaps even only 5 or 10 uses.

^ Could this be possible? Handheld & portable stored helium canisters, that'd be included in the packaging?


2.) The balloon would eventually pop itself when high in the air, to avoid it deflating and littering.

^Does anybody have a clue as to how this could be pulled off?

However it'd happen, it'd need to avoid littering. I first thought of a timed self-releasing tack that'd be attached to the balloon, but that'd of course end in sharp tacks falling from the sky, so that won't do.

I thought of attaching a biodegradable packet that'd include some liquid or material that'd pop it - however, having the torn apart fall from the popped balloon would seem redundant.

What about attaching to the balloon something micro-small, that'l eventually produce enough heat to pop the balloon? Really, I think that's what would need to happen - something that the user would properly stick to the balloon and activate before take off, that would eventually heat up and pop the balloon. A programmed heat that'd pop it way after a long period of it being in the air.


3.) To have the balloon shine as bright as a flame in a sky lantern in the night sky, I'm thinking that LED light(s), encased in ultra reflective material might do it. The LED light(s) would be stored inside the balloon, so the balloon would inflate and lift off with it already inside.

^ Could this work? What are some ways to have it brightly flash to brightly illuminate the entire balloon, so it could be seen from the ground, when it's off in the sky?

4.) Material. What material could inflate from helium, aside from latex?

In other words, I need to have it blow up into shapely objects (the draw for this product will be out these sky lights will mainly serve as a seasonal gift - sky lanterns based off halloween, thanksgiving, christmas, valentine's day, etc. etc objects).

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

zabrak999 - 3-9-2015 at 21:35

So really, the material sounds to be the biggest issue..


For the material, I need to think of something that could vanish in the sky...


If the material was latex (like a traditional balloon), then there could be a thousand possibilities where we'd attach something to make it self-pop...

...However, it's pretty much impossible to create a decent pop culture character out of a latex balloon.


Preferably, something that resembles this material:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Bouncy.c...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Inflatable+costume&safe=...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Union-ra...


Something like those ^

But what the hell could make it vanish in the air, after a period of time?

If the material was some paper material, then we could attach some timed-release liquid that would dissolve it..Could that be possible? How?

Help would be FANTASTICALLY appreciated

Little_Ghost_again - 4-9-2015 at 00:37

I cant see it, paper wire and a candle are cheap simple and easy, whatever you come up with needs to follow that or people wont bother.
How does a lantern work? how much heat does the candle give out in order to get it off the ground?
Maybe start there then look at simple reactions that can supply that kind of energy. Latex etc over the landscape wont win friends. Some supermarket bags are biodegrade quickly, maybe the material could be used instead of latex/rubber?

[Edited on 4-9-2015 by Little_Ghost_again]

zabrak999 - 5-9-2015 at 17:21

Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  
I cant see it, paper wire and a candle are cheap simple and easy, whatever you come up with needs to follow that or people wont bother.
How does a lantern work? how much heat does the candle give out in order to get it off the ground?
Maybe start there then look at simple reactions that can supply that kind of energy. Latex etc over the landscape wont win friends. Some supermarket bags are biodegrade quickly, maybe the material could be used instead of latex/rubber?

[Edited on 4-9-2015 by Little_Ghost_again]


We can't do a flame and traditional paper as that won't win the mainstream mass market appeal.


I think I've decided that a portable canister of helium that'd come packaged with the balloons would be used once to light it off, and it'd float on away.

The balloon would have an ultra bright LED light (powered by a micro watch battery) that's surrounded by a reflective material to make it extra bright...So it can be brightly be seen from the ground.

The material would have to be material that dissolves by water..

To have 95% of the material disappear to avoid litter, an attached packet full of liquid would eventually burst once it's well into the air, dissolving the balloon. The liquid would either be stored in the packet as it sits on store shelves, or would be filled in by the user at home.


That could work as a mass producing product, right? I'd like to start by doing holidays first, so a lot of these would be holiday characters and items, but the possibilities would be endless

zabrak999 - 5-9-2015 at 18:41

I think I've decided that there'd be a portable canister of helium that'd come packaged with the balloons would be used once to light it off.

The material would be water dissolving paper - paper that'd biodegrade incredibly easily, easily within a day or less.

The balloon would have an ultra bright LED light (powered by a micro watch battery) that's surrounded by a reflective material to make it extra bright...So it can be brightly be seen from the ground.

That could work as a mass producing product, right? I'd like to start by doing holidays first, so a lot of these would be holiday characters and items, but the possibilities would be endless.

I believe I don't even need to have the balloon disappear in the sky, if the material is going to be instantly biodegradable - dissolving paper would be amongst the fastest biodegradable material on earth.


So, if I patched together this dissolving paper to make a character (santa clause etc), would filling helium inside it blow it up to a proportional character? Would there need to be anything else that'd be required to make his arms, legs, head etc inflate out?

I'd imagine that at the bottom of every balloon, there'd be a spot to fill in helium, to have it inflate out and lift off.


here's some examples of dissolving paper:
http://www.daymarktechnologies.com/categories/Dissolving-Pap...
http://www.sulky.com/item/sulky-paper-solvy-stabilizer-white...
http://www.dissolvo.com/water-soluble-paper/

this site has colored dissolving paper:
http://www.aquasolpaper.com/