Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Urea Ban?

Hawkguy - 25-8-2015 at 12:55

Hey, just noticed that Urea has disappeared from stores over the last month or so. It seemed like it would always be available, as there was no real talk or build up to the removal. Also, the transition was very quick, about a week or two and Urea can't be found in westside Vancouver. This compared to the ban on Potassium Nitrate, which took over two years. Ammonium Nitrate took a year or so as well. Is there a ban or something I need to know about?

Mailinmypocket - 25-8-2015 at 13:09

No ban as far as I know here in Ontario anyways... I've always had issues finding urea though. I recently discovered a source. Look in grocery stores etc for a de-icer marketed as a pet foot friendly alternative to de-icing with salt. I don't remember the brand and would have to check but the only ingredient is urea...

aga - 25-8-2015 at 13:09

Perhaps they learnt from the Pot Nitrate experience and refined the Banning process ?

Have a look outside your area. It may just be a shortage.

TGT - 25-8-2015 at 19:58

I don't see any reason for them to ban urea.

TGT

Hawkguy - 25-8-2015 at 21:06

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Perhaps they learnt from the Pot Nitrate experience and refined the Banning process ?

Have a look outside your area. It may just be a shortage.
The Pot Nitrate experience? And I checked all over the city, the second largest in the Country.

Tabun - 25-8-2015 at 22:32

Quote: Originally posted by TGT  
I don't see any reason for them to ban urea.

TGT

It can be added to nitric acid if there is too much NOx and this is enough for the idiots to ban it and if they connect it to HNO3 which can be used for explosives the stupid population will be on their side...

hissingnoise - 26-8-2015 at 01:49

Quote:
It seemed like it would always be available, as there was no real talk or build up to the removal.

As a valuable and convenient nitrogen-rich fertiliser, it will likely always be available ─ if you find it not readily available you"ll just have to isolate your own:D . . . at a rate of ~1 ounce per day?

Praxichys - 26-8-2015 at 08:14

I live in Michigan and I would be comfortable shipping urea to Canada.

You could also just get it on eBay. 2kg is like $11 with free shipping. I don't think I can beat that!

WGTR - 26-8-2015 at 14:57

In a place like Afghanistan, supposedly you can't buy any nitrate or ammonium sulfate(?!?) fertilizers, but you can buy urea to the heart's content. I think it's the only legal option they have over there, and this is in a part of the world where IEDs are an unfortunate fact of life. So no, I don't think urea's banned anywhere in the world.

I think urea's not as widely available in North America, because there's little need for it. Better fertilizers can be bought with few or no questions asked.

Upsilon - 15-9-2015 at 13:24

Do you live in the U.S.? Because I just bought 5 pounds of it off of ebay for like $10 USD.

Upsilon - 15-9-2015 at 13:29

Quote: Originally posted by WGTR  
In a place like Afghanistan, supposedly you can't buy any nitrate or ammonium sulfate(?!?) fertilizers, but you can buy urea to the heart's content. I think it's the only legal option they have over there, and this is in a part of the world where IEDs are an unfortunate fact of life. So no, I don't think urea's banned anywhere in the world.

I think urea's not as widely available in North America, because there's little need for it. Better fertilizers can be bought with few or no questions asked.


Having ammonium sulfate makes it extremely easy to make ammonium nitrate (very explosive). If you have a nitrate salt of anything other than the 1A metals (there are also a few oddballs like copper, zinc, and magnesium that have soluble sulfate salts), you simply mix the two together, and the sulfate of the metal will largely precipitate out. Just filter and dry and you've got easy ammonium nitrate.

Bert - 15-9-2015 at 15:51

Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
Do you live in the U.S.? Because I just bought 5 pounds of it off of ebay for like $10 USD.


Guess what chemical replaced ammonium nitrate in many OTC instant cold packs... Yup. Or you can just go to any grain elevator, garden store, or good old eBay/Amazon.

Hawkguy - 16-9-2015 at 06:45

Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
Quote: Originally posted by Upsilon  
Do you live in the U.S.? Because I just bought 5 pounds of it off of ebay for like $10 USD.


Guess what chemical replaced ammonium nitrate in many OTC instant cold packs... Yup. Or you can just go to any grain elevator, garden store, or good old eBay/Amazon.


I'm in a pretty white hipster city, so its not really used in fertilizers, fertilizers are usually mixes of 'natural' Manganese, Boron, Nitrogen, Sulfur, Phosphorus, Copper, etc. I have been buying it in instant cold packs up to now, but the instant cold packs are disappearing. Used to have a selection of instant cold packs (Calcium Ammonium Nitrate, Ammonium Nitrate, Urea), but now they're all gone.

Bert - 16-9-2015 at 06:58

When Urea is outlawed... Only outlaws will urinate.

Brom - 16-9-2015 at 07:02

what do you mean by "white city" ? I'm sure you don't mean Caucasian city because I don't see how that would be relevant to the subject.

macckone - 16-9-2015 at 08:07

It is actually getting really hard to get straight content fertilizers.
The place I just moved from was a farming community and even there
it is all mixed crap. The only thing you can really get straight is CAN.
Mainly because mixing it with the other crap yields a precipitate in the
irrigation systems.

I can order all kinds of crap on-line but the ammonia rich stuff was
a mix of ammonium sulfate and ammonium phosphate.
Mixing it with CAN gives a precipitate of calcium sulfate and phosphate
and the ammonium nitrate stays in solution. Some calcium phosphate
can remain in solution if the pH isn't high enough. But it precipitates on
heating and will precipitate out before AN.

BUT ammonium nitrate is not explosive unless properly prilled and mixed
with fuel oil. Prilling ammonium nitrate requires some specialized equipment.
But I doubt it is beyond the reach of a determined home chemist.

PHILOU Zrealone - 18-9-2015 at 16:19

Quote: Originally posted by macckone  

BUT ammonium nitrate is not explosive unless properly prilled and mixed
with fuel oil. Prilling ammonium nitrate requires some specialized equipment.
But I doubt it is beyond the reach of a determined home chemist.

It is explosive (sensitised) with explosive fuels nitromethane, nitroglycerine, TNT, Hexamethylene tetramine dinitrate,...
but also with hydrazine (forming a mix of hydrazine nitrate, NH3 and NH4NO3) detonable at a speed of detonation exceeding the 8 km/s.

annaandherdad - 18-9-2015 at 17:36

Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
When Urea is outlawed... Only outlaws will urinate.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too....kind of hard to outlaw urea...worst nightmare at Homeland Security...urea bombs...

macckone - 19-9-2015 at 10:34

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Quote: Originally posted by macckone  

BUT ammonium nitrate is not explosive unless properly prilled and mixed
with fuel oil. Prilling ammonium nitrate requires some specialized equipment.
But I doubt it is beyond the reach of a determined home chemist.

It is explosive (sensitised) with explosive fuels nitromethane, nitroglycerine, TNT, Hexamethylene tetramine dinitrate,...
but also with hydrazine (forming a mix of hydrazine nitrate, NH3 and NH4NO3) detonable at a speed of detonation exceeding the 8 km/s.

It is still going to need to be properly prepared unless you plan on dissolving it.
Prills are the usual prepared form. Powder in will also work but then you risk
premature detonation.

Joeychemist - 19-9-2015 at 11:24

Quote: Originally posted by macckone  

It is still going to need to be properly prepared unless you plan on dissolving it.
Prills are the usual prepared form. Powder in will also work but then you risk
premature detonation.


What are you going on about?

AN is explosive whether prilled, powdered, activated or cast with fuels, sensitizers, other explosives etc. It does not need to be prilled and in fact you can achieve higher VOD with higher density afforded by activated or powdered AN explosives. ANFOs can become dead-pressed at higher density so that propagation of DDT wave is unsustainable or incomplete.

aga - 19-9-2015 at 11:37

What does 'Dead-pressed' mean ?

Joeychemist - 19-9-2015 at 12:12

It is possible to compress an explosive beyond a point of sensitivity, crushing crystal structure or literally forcing out the tiny air bubbles that are required for propagation of a detonation front. An explosive is said to become Dead-pressed at the specific density at which it will no longer support full propagation of detonation or only partial decomposition of the material is achieved.


[Edited on 19-9-2015 by Joeychemist]

aga - 19-9-2015 at 12:51

Thanks Joey !

So stuff can be squashed so much that it doesn't work anymore.

I assume that the DDT you refer to isn't an insecticide.

macckone - 19-9-2015 at 17:50

Quote: Originally posted by Joeychemist  
Quote: Originally posted by macckone  

It is still going to need to be properly prepared unless you plan on dissolving it.
Prills are the usual prepared form. Powder in will also work but then you risk
premature detonation.


What are you going on about?

AN is explosive whether prilled, powdered, activated or cast with fuels, sensitizers, other explosives etc. It does not need to be prilled and in fact you can achieve higher VOD with higher density afforded by activated or powdered AN explosives. ANFOs can become dead-pressed at higher density so that propagation of DDT wave is unsustainable or incomplete.

You can't just boil down a solution of AN and mix it with something and have it detonate. It is not that explosive. It needs to be treated in some manner. Prilled or powdered are what most home chemist would use. I don't know what method of activating you have in mind. Casting is certainly possible with some solvents and nitro compounds. If you wish to provide procedures please do so.

Edit: fixed auto correct error

[Edited on 20-9-2015 by macckone]

unionised - 20-9-2015 at 05:01

Banning urea?
Surely that's taking the piss?

ganger631 - 20-9-2015 at 19:13

Nah Dude, i found some urea in some instant ice pack at the dollar store.

ScopeGuy - 20-11-2015 at 22:12

I get the stuff at Agway 50 pounds here in the states for about 12 dollars. I have at least 6 bags leftover.