Sciencemadness Discussion Board - what are the products of this reaction kmno4+nh4cl+h2so4

what are the products of this reaction kmno4+nh4cl+h2so4

idrbur - 28-6-2015 at 23:08

Yesterday i carried out a reaction
Kmno4+nh4cl+h2so4
First i mixed kmno4 and nh4cl and when i pourd h2so4 over it it start fizzing and released s lot of so2 or it may be so3.the solution turned brownish-purple when it stop giving of so2.
So i want to know that what are the final products of the reaction?????

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by idrbur]

idrbur - 28-6-2015 at 23:18

Sorry for the typing mistake

idrbur - 28-6-2015 at 23:55

Sorry for the typing mistake

j_sum1 - 29-6-2015 at 00:02

Which typing mistake? There were several.

For a start, chlorides plus acidified permanganate liberate chlorine gas. That would account for the fizzing. That is probably not what you were wanting. Especially if you enjoy breathing.

Quite what else happens depends on your concentrations, your pH and the ratios of reactants. A few possibiliries but I am not going to guess. Your brown solution suggests you have reduced your Mn to a +4 oxidation state. But it wouldn't be unheard of to have some Fe contamination in with the permanganate.

Permanganate fully reduced in this scenario will end up as +2 which is clear or light pink. Seems like your potassium permanganate is in excess. I don't know how the ammonium ion will behave.

edit.
What were you hoping to achieve?

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by j_sum1]

aga - 29-6-2015 at 00:08

Hi. This should be in Beginnings where noobs like me can attempt to help out ...

First of all there are two steps to your reaction :

KMnO₄+NH₄Cl => ???

then whatever they create reacting with the H₂SO₄.

Did any thing happen at all when you mixed the potassium permanganate and ammonium chloride together ?

Something tells me that they did not react (i could easily be wrong).

In the 'soup' would be ions of K+, MnO₄-, NH₄+, Cl-, H+ and SO₄2-

From that i'd suspect your brownish-purple precipitate to be be MnSO₄

The other likely products would be (NH₄)₂SO₄, KCl, HCl.

The gas looks like it would have been Hydrogen and/or Chlorine (!).

When doing any reaction, weigh/measure all of your reagents and take a note of the concentrations etc.

It's also a good idea to do some research beforehand.

violet sin - 29-6-2015 at 00:36

2 H2SO4 + 2 KMnO4 -> Mn2O7 + H2O + 2 KHSO4
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_heptoxide

"Mn2O7 decomposes near room temperature, explosively so at > 55 °C. The explosion can be initiated by striking the sample or by its exposure to oxidizable organic compounds. The products are MnO2 and O2"
--------
but seeing as how you put this post in energetic subforum, I take it you knew that part.
--------
did you have any molar ratio in mind for the reaction, or just dump some stuff together? sounds like the KMnO4 and NH4Cl were solid and the acid was dumped on it?

- interesting read, but not sure it will help you out at all. energetics isn't my thing, but I like reading random stuff so...
SYNTHESIS AND PROPERTIES OF SIMPLE AND COMPLEX SALTS OF PERMANGANIC ACID
http://www.omikk.bme.hu/collections/phd/Vegyeszmernoki_es_Bi...
"Syntheses based on the metathesis reaction of KMnO4:
Reaction of warm saturated solutions of NH4Cl and potassium permangnate provided Kx(NH4)1-xMnO4(x=0.2-0.4) solid solutions instead of NH4MnO4 as it has been declared previously. Composition of the solid solutions did not change during recrystallization. In order to prepare pure NH4MnO4, the recrystallizations had to be performed in the presence of NH4Cl. "
-------------------------

if this was a pile of solids with acid dumped over, would it not be represented more like
2 NH4Cl + H2SO4 -> NH4SO4 + 2 HCl
and
2 KMnO4 + 2 H2SO4 -> Mn2O7 + H2O + 2 KHSO4 at the same time
then a later reaction of
Mn2O7 + (NH4)2SO4 (plus all of the above as some of these will be created and react before all of the prior will have finished)

not sure if the Mn2O7 has even more H2SO4 to play with or not(Mn2O7 + 2 H2SO4 → 2 [MnO3]+[HSO4]− + H2O), or which is the better oxidizer MnO3/Mn2O7 but ammonium sulfate could be oxidized perhaps? this is where my knowledge of what could happen completely evaporates... I think j_sum is onto the right way of looking at this, based on observation. colors present and all. but OP suggested that the gas was SO2 or SO3, and we don't know why. could have been the smell or other telltale trait, or just a shoot from the hip- no idea- guess. more info is deff needed.

Manganese - http://www.theodora.com/encyclopedia/m/manganese.html
" Manganese trioxide, Mn03, is obtained in small quantity as an unstable deliquescent red solid by dropping a solution of potassium permanganate in sulphuric acid on to dry sodium carbonate (B. Franke, Jour. prak. Chem., 1887 [2], 36, p. 31) "

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by violet sin]

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by violet sin]

idrbur - 29-6-2015 at 01:48

i noticed that its losing its colour first its brownish-purple after 3hours its colour become light and changed to purple and after 6 hour its become colourless.
As it is decomposing. is it or not?
Concentration of the acid is 30% and kmno4 and nh4cl are in the powder form.

idrbur - 29-6-2015 at 01:51

i noticed that its losing its colour first its brownish-purple after 3hours its colour become light and changed to purple and after 6 hour its become colourless.
As it is decomposing. is it or not?
Concentration of the acid is 30% and kmno4 and nh4cl are in the powder form.

PHILOU Zrealone - 29-6-2015 at 07:05

Possible products owing to the low % H2SO4: Mn2O7 would only occure if H2SO4 is very concentrated

HMnO4 (from H2SO4 and KMnO4)
NH4MnO4 (from NH4Cl and KMnO4)
MnO2 (from reduction of MnO4(-) by NxOy, by NH4 and by HCl)
HCl (from NH4Cl and H2SO4)
Cl2 (from HCl and KMnO4)
NCl3 (from NH4Cl and Cl2)
NxOy (from NH4MnO4)
H2O
KCl
K2SO4
KHSO4
MnSO4 (and higher Mn valences)
MnCl2 (and higher Mn valences)

blogfast25 - 29-6-2015 at 08:05

So much irrelevant NONSENSE here about a simple reaction. J_sum is right.

All reagents used here dissociate/deprotonate nearly completely, because there's water present:

KMnO4 === > K+(aq) + MnO4(-)(aq)

NH4Cl === > NH4(+)(aq) + Cl-(aq)

H2SO4 + H2O === > H3O+(aq) + HSO4(-)(aq)

K+, NH4+ and HSO4- are merely spectator ions here and don't take part in anything.

Permanganate is reduced to Mn(II):

MnO4(-) + 8 H+ + 5 e- ===> Mn2+ + 4 H2O

Chloride is oxidised to free chlorine:

2 Cl- ===> Cl2 + + 2 e-

Balance for e- and add up, then add the spectator ions for neutrality. Stoichiometrically you end up with ammonium sulphate, Mn(II) sulphate, K sulphate, chlorine and water.

People who don't know much about permanganate shouldn't be willy-nilly mixing it with 'stuff', you know?

"The mother of idiots is always pregnant" (Italian proverb)

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by blogfast25]

aga - 29-6-2015 at 09:05

I got about 2 out of 100 by guessing as it was Multiple Choice.

Progress !

unionised - 29-6-2015 at 12:13

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

So much irrelevant NONSENSE here about a simple reaction. J_sum is right.

All reagents used here dissociate/deprotonate nearly completely, because there's water present:

KMnO4 === > K+(aq) + MnO4(-)(aq)

NH4Cl === > NH4(+)(aq) + Cl-(aq)

H2SO4 + H2O === > H3O+(aq) + HSO4(-)(aq)

K+, NH4+ and HSO4- are merely spectator ions here and don't take part in anything.

Permanganate is reduced to Mn(II):

MnO4(-) + 8 H+ + 5 e- ===> Mn2+ + 4 H2O

Chloride is oxidised to free chlorine:

2 Cl- ===> Cl2 + + 2 e-

Balance for e- and add up, then add the spectator ions for neutrality. Stoichiometrically you end up with ammonium sulphate, Mn(II) sulphate, K sulphate, chlorine and water.

People who don't know much about permanganate shouldn't be willy-nilly mixing it with 'stuff', you know?

"The mother of idiots is always pregnant" (Italian proverb)

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by blogfast25]

Guess again.
This time, try to remember that chlorine reacts with ammonium salts.

PHILOU Zrealone - 29-6-2015 at 12:34

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

"So much irrelevant NONSENSE here about a simple reaction."
I don't agree...
Without knowing the initial amounts in question or stoechiometry, it is hard to tell if all reactants and products could be dissolved and fully ionised!

Also in this case the amount of possible products and byproducts increases because of the amount of starting materials and cross reactions...

I'm quite sure your remark:
People who don't know much about permanganate shouldn't be willy-nilly mixing it with 'stuff', you know?
is for idrbur

right?

KMnO4 is so reactive and NH4Cl being a little hygroscopic and mildly acidic (salt of a strong acid and a mild base)... I'm almost sure that Cl2 will form even without external acid...and NH4MnO4 + KCl may partially form what is bad news since NH4MnO4 is potentially unstable inner autoredox salt.
Hard to tell its redox products...NxOy, N2, H2O, HNO3, Mn(2+), Mn(3+), Mn(4+).

The brown precipitate is MnO2 what also produces Cl2 upon contact with HCl...

NH4Cl with Cl2 produces NH2Cl and NCl3...

aga - 29-6-2015 at 12:59

Break it up ladies and read the other words that were typed :

Quote: Originally posted by idrbur

Concentration of the acid is 30% and kmno4 and nh4cl are in the powder form.

So now you got dry (maybe hydrates) potassium permanganate and ammonium chloride powder onto which 'some' 30w% H₂SO₄ is poured.

I like this 'guess the reaction' game which should be in Beginnings.

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by aga]

blogfast25 - 29-6-2015 at 13:08

Zrealone:

You disagree... from what I've seen from you before that doesn't surprise me much. You might think your 'I think x,y,z might have happened cos I read it in a bookywook' impresses some but the adults here KNOW what happened, OK?

Go on, start blathering about 'ad hom', you know you want to.

Next we'll be discussing how many angels fit on the tip of a pin. Cos' we (you) can!

Now can someone move this to 'beginnings', please? The shoe more than fits.

As far as I'm concerned people who mix things they don't know in unknown amounts and for unstated purposes should be bought a plastic bucket and spade and go play in a protected sand pit, far away from the beach (too dangerous for them, that water!) And DON'T post your sand turd experiences on a science forum, capisce? :mad:

That way you won't have to try and use chemical symbols either...

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by blogfast25]

violet sin - 29-6-2015 at 13:54

Blogfast25: Sorry if my comment was one of "So much irrelevant NONSENSE". To be honest, I don't know the very much about the reactions of permanganate. Just from some reading on fish tank/water treatment, flash powder comps and other simple reactions/metathesizes. Plus that knowledge which comes from chem-1,2 in college, which was mostly short sighted for specific exercises.

Nor do I know by heart the various oxidizing capabilities of the species present. It was obvious MnO₂ was produced by the brown color. But the amount/strength of H₂SO₄ supplied to the mix was unknown. also J_sum, aga and my self were responding before there was (barely)any info regarding proportions, states and concentrations. I had mentioned that J_sum was thinking clearly here, by using color observations in assessing possible conditions/degree of completion in the various reactions.

all I knew was there are a multitude of youtube vids by those with little chem knowledge, showcasing a pile of KMnO₄ with H₂SO₄ dumped *all over it*. usually the concentrated drain cleaner. This and the location of the post in energetics, led me to believe it was intended to make the heptoxide, known to be a crazy oxidizer. In reading about that(Mn₂O₇), I came across the mention of MnO₃( somewhat analogous to CrO₃). possibly an even better oxidizer, but I found little info on this subject after 45 min of searching.

the OP's mentions of SO₂/SO₃ gas also had me puzzled. led me to believe either it was assumed incorrectly and just a gaseous product, or something got shredded in harsh oxidizing, possibly water poor conditions(95-98% H₂SO₄). though as it turned out, the conditions were much milder.

for my sake, and as a learning exercise for others, could you (Blogfast25 or some one else) illustrate what would have happened if the conditions were much more sever, such as: a good pile of two powdered salts (KMnO₄ & NH₄Cl) mixed in roughly equal molar proportion, then covered in a great excess of 95%+ H₂SO₄( more than required to make manganese heptoxide)? I would like to know if indeed any polyatomic ions would be shredded and what species would liberated. I have a feeling it's not nearly as simple as stated above. to me it would seem, physically the Mn₂O₇, HCl and (NH₄)₂SO₄ would start to be produced on the surface of the pile as the sulfuric acid started to soak through. providing an oxidizing envelope through which all escaping gaseous products would pass, and all solid/dissolved species would be covered. could get interesting and quite messy, so likely outcomes wouldn't need be expressed as actual percentages, just more of a- how far reaching is the destruction? think of this like "what could happen to some one who watched youtube, has some chems and NO knowledge/fear/common sense?"

Id appreciate it, thanks.
edited for subscript's, forgot 'em the first go

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by violet sin]

geeze, looks like I was missing a lot while tyrping/editing my post.. ok then. thats how my post ended up the third comment down in the first place... started writing with no other comments, and got the bronze for poor content

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by violet sin]

aga - 29-6-2015 at 13:55

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

impresses some but the adults here KNOW what happened

There are adults here ?

Nobody said anything about adults being allowed in.

My Mom could be watching !

Oh dear.

blogfast25 - 29-6-2015 at 15:36

Quote: Originally posted by aga

My Mom could be watching !

Maybe she should? We could do with baboon bouncer around here!

blogfast25 - 29-6-2015 at 15:47

Quote: Originally posted by violet sin

for my sake, and as a learning exercise for others, could you (Blogfast25 or some one else) illustrate what would have happened if the conditions were much more sever, such as: a good pile of two powdered salts (KMnO₄ & NH₄Cl) mixed in roughly equal molar proportion, then covered in a great excess of 95%+ H₂SO₄( more than required to make manganese heptoxide)? I would like to know if indeed any polyatomic ions would be shredded and what species would liberated. I have a feeling it's not nearly as simple as stated above. to me it would seem, physically the Mn₂O₇, HCl and (NH₄)₂SO₄ would start to be produced on the surface of the pile as the sulfuric acid started to soak through. providing an oxidizing envelope through which all escaping gaseous products would pass, and all solid/dissolved species would be covered. could get interesting and quite messy, so likely outcomes wouldn't need be expressed as actual percentages, just more of a- how far reaching is the destruction? think of this like "what could happen to some one who watched youtube, has some chems and NO knowledge/fear/common sense?"

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by violet sin]

Frankly speaking I don't really know (and don't care that much either) but unless the question serves a practical purpose it just doesn't make a lot of sense to ask it at all. It's just not 'how science is done', no matter what any amateur here might believe.

Permanganates with conc. H2SO4 do indeed form Mn2O7, a dangerously unstable and very powerful oxidiser. But conc. H2SO4 with NH4Cl also forms HCl gas. Then what?

But this is not the way to design a decent highly energetic material though. For that you form decent hypotheses, then test them empirically (and carefully!), learn from that and so on and so on.

[Edited on 29-6-2015 by blogfast25]

violet sin - 29-6-2015 at 19:04

Nope, it serves no practical purpose, just curious as there were multiple assertions ( from members)as to what was going on in the mild version( from OP's procedure, if it can be called a procedure). I, simply put, don't have the required knowledge of chemical behavior to mentally generate a simulation that would be at all faithful. while some here innately know how species interact, or at least what they are capable of and what they aren't. I.e MnO2 ability to oxidize Cl-, NH3 in acidic conditions(simplification). And for some a quick shot answer takes no great deal of effort, mental drain or calculations. Along the lines of.. ammonia would be converted to free nitrogen and water, or, go all the way to N-oxides, or just vent off unchanged. Where as for me it would be a lot of reading, just to understand the can's and can'ts... But I didn't mean to waste your time.

To be clear, I have no use for any energetic materials, no desire to experiment with them, let alone at my house... I expected the thread to be moved to beginning last night. So my question wasn't aimed in that dirrection.

chornedsnorkack - 29-6-2015 at 21:13

Quote: Originally posted by idrbur

Yesterday i carried out a reaction
Kmno4+nh4cl+h2so4
First i mixed kmno4 and nh4cl and when i pourd h2so4 over it it start fizzing and released s lot of so2 or it may be so3.

How did you identify the gas?
SO₃ is very hygroscopic, and also liquid or solid at room temperature. To get SO₃ from sulphuric acid you need to add a strong hygroscopic agent like P₂O₅, and even then it would not fizz. And neither NH₄Cl nor KMnO₄ is strongly hygroscopic.

Quote:

From that i'd suspect your brownish-purple precipitate to be be MnSO4

No way. MnSO₄ is soluble and light pink.
Brown precipitate is obviously MnO₂

Quote:

i noticed that its losing its colour first its brownish-purple after 3hours its colour become light and changed to purple and after 6 hour its become colourless.
As it is decomposing. is it or not?

1) Some of the KMnO₄ is rapidly reduced to MnO₂, which is formed as a fine brown colloid. The reaction does not immediately go to completion, some KMnO₄ is left over as purple solution, and some reducers are also left
2) The brown MnO₂ suspension slowly settles out, leaving the leftover KMnO₄ in clear purple solution
3) The redox reaction between leftover KMnO₄ and leftover reducer goes on slowly. So KMnO₄ is exhausted and the solution becomes colourless.

[Edited on 30-6-2015 by chornedsnorkack]

[Edited on 30-6-2015 by chornedsnorkack]

PHILOU Zrealone - 30-6-2015 at 14:56

@blogfast25
Calm down...I don't know what you have eaten...for so much hangryness...

May I ask you what is wrong with what I have written earlier please?

I know about MnO2 and HCl.
I have made NCl3.
I have made KMnO4 experiments a lot of time with HCl, with H2SO4 and many other organic and mineral compounds.
I once had a friction sensitive mix with KMnO4.
Do you know that by grinding it very fine, it becomes airborne and strongly sternutatory...I know many things by experimenting.

Sorry to say but I have at home more than a ton of various several 100th of lab grade chemicals (about 75 boxes of 0,40*0,40*0,60 m³) and some of them are quite exotic.
And I play a lot with them so please don't be jealous

blogfast25 - 30-6-2015 at 15:08

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

@blogfast25
Calm down...I don't know what you have eaten...for so much hangryness...

You're an idiot and you've proved that on more than one occasion already. I'll be keeping an eye on your posts. :mad:

Now please foff.

PHILOU Zrealone - 1-7-2015 at 01:10

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone

@blogfast25
Calm down...I don't know what you have eaten...for so much hangryness...

You're an idiot and you've proved that on more than one occasion already. I'll be keeping an eye on your posts. :mad:

Now please foff.

You are certainly right, I may have done mistakes...I'm only human.

At least if I'm wrong, I'm glad someone tells me and I'm the first one to stand corrected, admit my mistakes and to put myself on the line.

I think that is the way to grow up...and everyday is full of learning wonders and new wonderings and questions if you look at it with a scientific eye.

I'm glad you keep an eye on my posts, I will try to improve my writings.

I read (and rere...reread) books and scientific texts everyday, but I do also experiments.

I would be glad to read a comment on my writting and pictures here:
"Green solution" in energetic materials
I don't trust 100% everything what is written in books, but done experiments, I trust much more

...

@Other readers!
By the way MnO2 and KMnO4 with HCl is very dangerously toxic and pugnant because of Cl2 war gas produced, never do this inside without good hood and venting; otherwise you may feel very dizzy and intoxicated.
Even a tiny 50ml HCl 33% with a few ccm of permanganate or MnO2 may force you to leave your place (with windows open for venting) to go far from there and take fresh air and recover.

[Edited on 1-7-2015 by PHILOU Zrealone]

chornedsnorkack - 1-7-2015 at 06:52

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

K+, NH4+ and HSO4- are merely spectator ions here and don't take part in anything.

K⁺ and HSO₄^-, yes.

How can you rule out oxidation of NH₄⁺?