Sciencemadness Discussion Board

tin metal powder

anyz - 11-6-2015 at 23:58

Hi,
I'm looking for tin (Sn) powder at home lab. is there a simple way like heating and getting it i powder form possible mixing some other substance.

and finally what is its final color; gray , white?

Loptr - 12-6-2015 at 03:48

I have some tin ingots that are a shiny silver color.

anyz - 12-6-2015 at 04:58

someone told liquid tin and alum when heated for soem long time can convert tin in powder shape. But i'm not sure. any idea?

Molecular Manipulations - 12-6-2015 at 05:00

Google is your friend.

MrHomeScientist - 12-6-2015 at 05:25

Depending on your requirements for particle size and quantity, you could always use a file or sandpaper.

Sulaiman - 12-6-2015 at 10:38

I have not tried but when I was experimenting with tin
(my stock material was solid silvery shiny ingots)
I remember that tin has two common allotropes,
the common alpha-tin which is stable above 13.2 C can change to the brittle beta-tin at low temperatures
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin
so maybe if you put tin in a freezer for some time then pound it with a hammer it will pulverise?

liquid (molten) tin poured into water gives tin nodules

Texium - 12-6-2015 at 10:43

Easier said than done. I've had a little strip of some pure tin sitting in the freezer for at least a month now and it hasn't changed a bit. It seems like it takes much colder temps to drive the reaction forward at an appreciable rate.

[Edited on 6-12-2015 by zts16]

Molecular Manipulations - 12-6-2015 at 10:45

My tin never turned to beta in the year it's been at -10 C.
Must not be as pure as the label says...

unionised - 13-6-2015 at 03:48

If you take a piece of cast tin and put it in the fridge you will wait a long time for it to convert to grey tin.
Putting it in the freezer will actually slow the reaction down.
However if you take that tin and hammer it flat so there are lots of defect in the crystal structure then put it in the fridge it will change much quicker (though we are still talking about months.)

vmelkon - 13-6-2015 at 11:35

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
If you take a piece of cast tin and put it in the fridge you will wait a long time for it to convert to grey tin.
Putting it in the freezer will actually slow the reaction down.
However if you take that tin and hammer it flat so there are lots of defect in the crystal structure then put it in the fridge it will change much quicker (though we are still talking about months.)


Interesting. Has it worked for you?
I haven't done this since I don't have pure tin.

anyz - 13-6-2015 at 12:31

Let me give some background. I'm looking to powder the Tin for making its Calyx that is traditional indian way for making medicine by mixing with other herbs.

- Metal should be in pure powder form without any grain/particles
Traditional ways recommended are by heating with alum or similar stuff. But this is also not fully documented.

Let me give some background. I'm looking to powder the Tin for making its Calyx that is traditional indian way for making medicine by mixing with other herbs.

- Metal should be in pure powder form without any grain/particles
Traditional ways recommended are by heating with alum or similar stuff. But this is also not fully documented.



[Edited on 13-6-2015 by anyz]

blogfast25 - 13-6-2015 at 12:42

Quote: Originally posted by anyz  

Let me give some background. I'm looking to powder the Tin for making its Calyx that is traditional indian way for making medicine by mixing with other herbs.



Huh?

The Volatile Chemist - 13-6-2015 at 13:03

This is probably just me being an idiot, but what if you melted some sodium, dissolved the tin in it, then reacted away the sodium? I'd just been thinking about this recently.

Pok - 13-6-2015 at 13:08

If you heat tin to 162 °C but below ~ 230 °C (m.p.) you will get gamma tin (the third allotrope beside alpha and beta), which is so brittle that you can grind it to powder in a mortar (while still hot).

Other options for coarse powder ("stannum pulveratum"): grind molten tin with salt, let it cool, dissolve in water, dry. Or shake molten tin with hot chalk powder in a wooden container. For medium-fine powder ("stannum praecipitatum"): cementation with zinc from a stannous chloride solution. (literature)

@Sulaiman and Molecular Manipulations: gray tin is the alpha allotrope, not the beta.

[Edited on 13-6-2015 by Pok]

unionised - 14-6-2015 at 01:57

Quote: Originally posted by anyz  
Let me give some background. I'm looking to powder the Tin for making its Calyx that is traditional indian way for making medicine by mixing with other herbs.
[Edited on 13-6-2015 by anyz]

Why?
It's not as it it will have any medical benefit.

Molecular Manipulations - 14-6-2015 at 02:18

Probably some smart indian once realized he could add a heavy metal filler add weight to his useless herb mixture, wrote down the recipe and the sheep followed.

j_sum1 - 14-6-2015 at 02:27

Maybe we need a woo-buster subforum.

anyz - 15-6-2015 at 01:53

Thanks a lot for all comments. This is correct that it is very hard for me to get actual recipe that works; that is within set herbal standards and still within cost-budget.

There are too many fluff but this was not making sense to me. I'm not a pure chemistry soul so i decided to try my luck with knowledgeable forum.

zed - 15-6-2015 at 12:38

Try Dry Ice. Metals are generally more brittle when cold. Ball milling?

http://www.viralnova.com/chemical-reactions/
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v169/n4302/pdf/169621b0...

Reports suggest that -50 C can do the deed quickly. Sadly, some of us are in parts of the world where Dry Ice is usually unavailable.

[Edited on 15-6-2015 by zed]

[Edited on 15-6-2015 by zed]

Sulaiman - 15-6-2015 at 13:11

If you can buy a CO2 fire extinguisher
e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brand-New-2kg-CO2-Fire-Extinguishe...
you can make your own dry ice
e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCkBaoHXJT4

very convenient ... not cheap though

[Edited on 15-6-2015 by Sulaiman]

Fenir - 15-6-2015 at 13:25

I am not sure tin is a good addition to herbal medicine......I seem to remember that heavy metals have the opposite of healing effects when consumed.

AJKOER - 15-6-2015 at 13:26

Quote: Originally posted by Pok  
If you heat tin to 162 °C but below ~ 230 °C (m.p.) you will get gamma tin (the third allotrope beside alpha and beta), which is so brittle that you can grind it to powder in a mortar (while still hot).
...............
[Edited on 13-6-2015 by Pok]


Per this source http://tin.atomistry.com/physical_properties.html , the magic temperature is, to quote:

"At 200° C. tin becomes brittle and can be powdered."

which is within the range (actually very nearly the midpoint) specified by Pok.

[Edited on 15-6-2015 by AJKOER]

kecskesajt - 16-6-2015 at 02:31

Maybe add some Mg-stearate to SnCl2 and add Al pieces into it.Hopefully the Al will reduce the Sn+ to Sn. 3 SnCl2 + 2 Al = 3 Sn + 2 AlCl3.The Mg-stearate is to protect the Sn from redissolving.

AJKOER - 16-6-2015 at 05:53

Quote: Originally posted by Fenir  
I am not sure tin is a good addition to herbal medicine......I seem to remember that heavy metals have the opposite of healing effects when consumed.


I somewhat recently recounted on SM the dated use of Arsenic in medicine (see http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=62063#... ), apparently as toxin for bacteria. In my opinion, a dangerous art based on relative toxicity (the "cure" kills the bugs before the host). While one can apply Probit Analysis (commonly used in toxicology to determine the relative toxicity of chemicals to living organisms), the art of such statistical analysis can generate a reference LD50 for the host and the disease (where the LD50 is the observed lethal dose at which half the population lives or dies). Hence my use of the words "dangerous" and "art".

The employment of heavy metals in such roles predates the use of modern antibiotics.

I would be interested if any biochemists feel whether any heavy metal (for example, nano silver) could possibly provide an alternative against increasing antibiotic immune super bugs?

[Edited on 16-6-2015 by AJKOER]

Molecular Manipulations - 16-6-2015 at 10:44

I'm not a biochemist, but at least I know how to search the web.
Lots of doctors do use silver as an antibiotic coating on medical devices. Many wound dressings containing silver sulfadiazine or silver nanomaterials may be used on external infections, however there's very little evidence of it's effectiveness. Ref.
Colloidal silver and formulations containing silver salts were used by physicians in the early 20th century, but their use was largely discontinued in the 1940s following the development of safer and effective modern antibiotics.
There is tentative evidence that silver coatings on endotracheal breathing tubes may reduce the incidence of ventilator-associated pneumonia. Ref.

The silver ion (Ag+) is bioactive and in sufficient concentration readily kills bacteria in vitro. Silver exhibits low toxicity in the human body, and minimal risk is expected due to clinical exposure by inhalation, ingestion, or dermal application. Ref.
Since the 1990s, colloidal silver has again been marketed as an alternative medicine, often with extensive "cure-all" claims. Again, there's little evidence that most of these (or any) are effective.
Google is your friend.
As for tin, it isn't very toxic, mostly because in elemental form it doesn't get oxidized and thus remains just tin metal. The compounds of it aren't as toxic as many other heavy metals, but that doesn't make it "safe" either.
Also I doubt the tin used by Native Americans was free from lead and other actually toxic heavy metals, so their continued use of it may have been partially from killed brain cells that kept them from realizing they were poising themselves! No offense, it's isn't/wasn't their fault.

[Edited on 16-6-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

Loptr - 16-6-2015 at 11:20

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
I'm not a biochemist, but at least I know how to search the web.
Lots of doctors do use silver as an antibiotic coating on medical devices. Many wound dressings containing silver sulfadiazine or silver nanomaterials may be used on external infections, however there's very little evidence of it's effectiveness. Ref.
Colloidal silver and formulations containing silver salts were used by physicians in the early 20th century, but their use was largely discontinued in the 1940s following the development of safer and effective modern antibiotics.
There is tentative evidence that silver coatings on endotracheal breathing tubes may reduce the incidence of ventilator-associated pneumonia. Ref.

The silver ion (Ag+) is bioactive and in sufficient concentration readily kills bacteria in vitro. Silver exhibits low toxicity in the human body, and minimal risk is expected due to clinical exposure by inhalation, ingestion, or dermal application. Ref.
Since the 1990s, colloidal silver has again been marketed as an alternative medicine, often with extensive "cure-all" claims. Again, there's little evidence that most of these (or any) are effective.
Google is your friend.
As for tin, it isn't very toxic, mostly because in elemental form it doesn't get oxidized and thus remains just tin metal. The compounds of it aren't as toxic as many other heavy metals, but that doesn't make it "safe" either.
Also I doubt the tin used by Native Americans was free from lead and other actually toxic heavy metals, so their continued use of it may have been partially from killed brain cells that kept them from realizing they were poising themselves! No offense, it's isn't/wasn't their fault.

[Edited on 16-6-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]


Off topic, but did you guys hear about the guy that turned blue after ingestion of colloidal silver? He still continues to do it, even after this!

https://www.google.com/search?q=turning+blue+from+silver&...

Molecular Manipulations - 16-6-2015 at 11:51

Lots of people had that happen to them. I even know of somebody like that, although to a much lesser extent then that. And yeah, despite me telling her to stop, she drinks the solution on a semi-regular basis.

unionised - 16-6-2015 at 12:57

There is a world of difference between showing that tin isn't very toxic; and showing that it is actually beneficial.

Incidentally, this "in elemental form it doesn't get oxidized and thus remains just tin metal." is at odds with the fact that tin dissolves in HCl (which is present in the stomach).

jock88 - 16-6-2015 at 13:12


Is tin actually used by any part of or function in the body?

Is there a list of actual elements that are used by the human body. All I know is that lead is not needed by any living thing.

zed - 16-6-2015 at 13:24

The process of greying Tin, is aided by the presence of some that has already changed over.

Like prion disease, ice nine, or your more atypical crystallizations .... an errant seed helps the transformation to get started. This seed, then teaches, or corrupts, the normal Tin.

Process may be hard to start, but once started, it cannot be easily stopped.

On another matter.....Ingest enough Silver, and your skin goes permanently bluish.

"Blue? Like our beloved Lord Krishna?" Some of you will longingly query. Well, No! Not hardly. Stop fantasizing.

The shade of Blue attained, is quite Greyish. Dead body-ish, in fact. If you wish to attain the lovely hue of Lord Krishna, you will have to direct your quest in some other direction.



[Edited on 16-6-2015 by zed]

Molecular Manipulations - 16-6-2015 at 13:33

Quote: Originally posted by unionised  

Incidentally, this "in elemental form it doesn't get oxidized and thus remains just tin metal." is at odds with the fact that tin dissolves in HCl (which is present in the stomach).

You're quite right, I was thinking of antimony, which I had just been experimenting with yesterday, and is much more resistant to corrosion by acids. Sorry about that.
In any case, I never even implied that tin's lack of biological toxicity constitutes my belief that it is beneficial to health. Quite the opposite is my opinion.

unionised - 17-6-2015 at 10:04

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
Quote: Originally posted by unionised  

Incidentally, this "in elemental form it doesn't get oxidized and thus remains just tin metal." is at odds with the fact that tin dissolves in HCl (which is present in the stomach).

You're quite right, I was thinking of antimony, which I had just been experimenting with yesterday, and is much more resistant to corrosion by acids. Sorry about that.
In any case, I never even implied that tin's lack of biological toxicity constitutes my belief that it is beneficial to health. Quite the opposite is my opinion.


It's far from clear that Sb is any more inert that Sn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimony_pill

Molecular Manipulations - 17-6-2015 at 10:23

I fail to see your point.
I specified it's much more resistant to acids, which it is.
Sb can be oxidized by oxygen at high temperatures. So what?
If Sb disolves in the body it must be something besides or combined with HCl (aq).
I recommend injesting neither Sb nor Sn, but to each his own I guess.

[Edited on 17-6-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

The Volatile Chemist - 20-6-2015 at 18:39

"To each his own"
Yum yum. Eat up! So was my suggested procedure on the first page possible?

Molecular Manipulations - 20-6-2015 at 19:09

Replace sodium with aluminum and tin with nickel and you've copied one step off a Raney nickel production method.
It probably would work, why don't you try it out?

The Volatile Chemist - 20-6-2015 at 19:12

Huh, thanks for the connection. I might try it if I get the stuff.

unionised - 21-6-2015 at 05:42

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
I fail to see your point.
I specified it's much more resistant to acids, which it is.
Sb can be oxidized by oxygen at high temperatures. So what?
If Sb disolves in the body it must be something besides or combined with HCl (aq).
I recommend injesting neither Sb nor Sn, but to each his own I guess.

[Edited on 17-6-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

My point was that the antimony pill works because some of the antimony dissolves "in transit" and acts as a laxative.
So Antimony, even in lumps, doesn't go through the gut unchanged.
The powdered material would be attacked even more so it isn't inert.
Compared with tin, it's likely that less of the Sb would dissolve, but it's a lot more toxic than Sn anyway so it's probably just as bad an idea to swallow it (if not worse).

Magpie - 21-6-2015 at 07:57

"Dose makes the poison." An early treatment for syphillis was the arsenical compound Salvarsan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Arsphenamine

battoussai114 - 21-6-2015 at 11:04

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
"Dose makes the poison." An early treatment for syphillis was the arsenical compound Salvarsan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Arsphenamine


And melarsoprol is still used for bad cases of trypanossome diseases.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melarsoprol

The Volatile Chemist - 21-6-2015 at 19:10

And baseball bats are still used as anesthetic treatments, despite the fact we'd rather not meet one in an alley.

Pok - 22-6-2015 at 07:32

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
Replace sodium with aluminum and tin with nickel and you've copied one step off a Raney nickel production method.

If the sodium reacts with water you have a hot basic solution and tin will react to sodium stannate, especially in such a finely divided state.

[Edited on 22-6-2015 by Pok]

blogfast25 - 22-6-2015 at 07:39

Quote: Originally posted by Pok  

If the sodium reacts with water you have a hot basic solution and tin will react to sodium stannate, especially in such a finely diveded state.


That thought has occurred to me too. In the absence of an oxidiser it would be stannite (II), though. Also, although tin is an amphoteric element, dissolving tin in strong alkali would be a slow boat to China, I think. Other amphoteric elements like Zr and Ti aren't really attacked much by alkali either.

Of course very finely divided tin would increase reaction speed. For that reason I would not go down that route either.

[Edited on 22-6-2015 by blogfast25]

The Volatile Chemist - 22-6-2015 at 09:17

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Quote: Originally posted by Pok  

If the sodium reacts with water you have a hot basic solution and tin will react to sodium stannate, especially in such a finely diveded state.


That thought has occurred to me too. In the absence of an oxidiser it would be stannite (II), though. Also, although tin is an amphoteric element, dissolving tin in strong alkali would be a slow boat to China, I think. Other amphoteric elements like Zr and Ti aren't really attacked much by alkali either.

Of course very finely divided tin would increase reaction speed. For that reason I would not go down that route either.

[Edited on 22-6-2015 by blogfast25]

What about a large quantity of rather dilute HCl solution, instead of water? This might work in small quantities.

blogfast25 - 22-6-2015 at 09:45

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  

What about a large quantity of rather dilute HCl solution, instead of water? This might work in small quantities.


Considering reducing Sn(II) in solution is easy, I think of the whole idea as a waste of good sodium metal, frankly.

The Volatile Chemist - 22-6-2015 at 10:19

OK. Would there be any good application of such a method for any metal? Would it work for more inert compounds, or is the use of aluminum better suited to the job?

Kagutsuchi - 22-6-2015 at 10:47

Such method for any metal does not exist in fact, because there are ones that are just too positive to be reduced and the only metal that could reduce them is francium.
By the way, the method with reducing the ions of the metal should work for most metals, just check the standard potential of them.

Pok - 22-6-2015 at 17:21

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
In the absence of an oxidiser it would be stannite (II), though.

Are you sure? According to atomistry "the metal dissolves in warm concentrated alkalis with formation of alkali stannate and evolution of hydrogen. Stannate is formed rather than stannite owing to the superior acidity of stannic tin".

But the next part is interesting: "indeed a solution of stannite decomposes on concentration into stannate and metallic tin."

So maybe it's possible to get very finely divided tin from disproportionation of stannites.

blogfast25 - 22-6-2015 at 17:30

Pok:

Atomistry is crap, frankly speaking. Very short on actual references/sources.

The oxidation of tin to stannite is by water (H<sup>+</sup> to use the electrochemical notation), and that can only oxidise Sn(0) to Sn(II) (see e.g. oxidation of Sn to Sn(II) by dilute HCl):

Sn(0)(s) + OH<sup>-</sup>(aq) + 2 H<sub>2</sub>O(l) === > Sn(OH)<sub>3</sub><sup>-</sup> (aq) + H<sub>2</sub>(g)

Of course Sn(II) is quite easily oxidised to Sn(IV) by air oxygen.

As regards the disproportionation of Sn(II) to Sn(0) and Sn(IV), I've prepared stannite solutions in the past and never saw that, for what that's worth of course.


[Edited on 23-6-2015 by blogfast25]

Pok - 23-6-2015 at 02:27

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
actual references/sources.

Which?

My source: https://books.google.de/books?id=LTTyCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA62

1.jpg - 13kB

If stannites decompose to tin an stannates in hot alkaline medium, then you will get stannates and not stannites.

blogfast25 - 23-6-2015 at 05:31

Quote: Originally posted by Pok  


My source: https://books.google.de/books?id=LTTyCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA62



If stannites decompose to tin an stannates in hot alkaline medium, then you will get stannates and not stannites.


SRPs is thermodynamics and thermodynamics says nothing about kinetics. What is thermodynamically feasible doesn't necessarily happen. I didn't observe disproportionation of stannite solutions.

Pok - 23-6-2015 at 08:04

Stannites disproportionate in hot and/or strongly alkaline solutions, no matter what you observed or not. Your claim is based on a not existing observation and on a theory which has been proven inappropriate here. There is not much left to maintain your objection.

The Volatile Chemist - 27-6-2015 at 07:18

Quote:
no matter what you observed or not.

This is science. Thermochem and everything else are based upon observation. Chemistry is also full of exceptions.

blogfast25 - 27-6-2015 at 08:42

Quote: Originally posted by Pok  
Stannites disproportionate in hot and/or strongly alkaline solutions, no matter what you observed or not. Your claim is based on a not existing observation and on a theory which has been proven inappropriate here. There is not much left to maintain your objection.


That simple, is it?

I claimed to have prepared stannite solutions and to not have observed disproportionation. That's a genuine observation, whether you like it or not. A possible explanation is that there are kinetic obstacles. My experiment did not involve heat, so that might also explain the discrepancy.

Acc. the STPs Cr(III)(aq) would be easy to reduce by Al(s) or Zn(s) (to Cr(0)). Well, go ahead and try it. Thermodynamics says nothing about kinetics: coal doesn't spontaneously combust either, now does it?

Your use of the term 'inappropriate' here is ridiculous: this isn't a 'moral' or 'ethical' issue. Besides, which 'theory' has been proved 'inappropriate' here?

Provide credible and authorative evidence for your initial assertion and I'll have NOT THE SLIGHTEST PROBLEM accepting that.

You should really try to get over the fact that some (including me) once mildly questioned your KOH reduction experiments (and then fully acknowledged your work), you know? You get extremely defensive for no good reason.

[Edited on 27-6-2015 by blogfast25]

Pok - 27-6-2015 at 16:04

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
My experiment did not involve heat, so that might also explain the discrepancy.

Yes. But you claimed something and tried to support this theory by a not existing observation. What you are saying now is totally different.

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Thermodynamics says nothing about kinetics

It didn't claim the opposite. But if literature says that people have seen spongy tin when a solution of stannite is heated, I believe them.

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Your use of the term 'inappropriate' here is ridiculous

No. Your theory of oxidation of Sn(II) to Sn(IV) is inappropriate, because it does not fit to the question. It lead us on a wrong way. You used this theory to exclude the possibility that stannate could form. A more specific theory said that it is possible. That's why your theorie doesn't answer the question. It's not wrong, but inappropriate or whatever you want to call it.

I think I already gave evidence (literature). I don't think that I am defensive. I only asked you about the certainty of your claim just because I wanted to know what really happens in this reaction. I didn't write the last post in anger, so please read it like a objetive criticism!

[Edited on 28-6-2015 by Pok]

blogfast25 - 27-6-2015 at 17:22

Well, as soon as I can I'll prepare some stannite and put it through its paces.

It's possible that heat's the deciding factor here. Also, small amounts of stannate formed by air oxidation of stannite may have a catalytic/initiator effect on disproportionation.

I can only state that my cold stannite solutions did not generate any tin. If my observation was wrong, you'll be the first to hear about it.

Stannite solutions have also been used as powerful reducers in OC: nitroalkenes to ketoximes e.g.

m1tanker78 - 27-6-2015 at 20:31

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
This is probably just me being an idiot, but what if you melted some sodium, dissolved the tin in it, then reacted away the sodium? I'd just been thinking about this recently.


FWIW, I've actually done this before. It wasn't pure tin but rather a 95/5 tin-antimony alloy -- solder, that is. It worked like a charm for rapidly dissolving the solder in HCl.

[Edited on 6-28-2015 by m1tanker78]

unionised - 28-6-2015 at 06:02

That's a dangerously good way to make stibine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stibine

m1tanker78 - 28-6-2015 at 14:10

Good eye unionised. I performed the experiment outside but to be honest, I didn't even know of the existence of stibine gas until today. It does warrant some precaution.

I Like Dots - 29-6-2015 at 08:38

Heat the tin to until it just starts to melt and pour it into warm water. The Tin will 'popcorn' and you will be left with exploded tin the consistency of coarse sand.

The Volatile Chemist - 5-7-2015 at 12:29

From what I've seen, popcorn tin is usually larger than sand, but I haven't done it, so I wouldn't know.