Sciencemadness Discussion Board - AU Competition #1 ~ Copper Carnival

So in the rules, I've found this statement to be a little bit confusing:

4. CuCl₂ + 2NaOH = Cu(OH)₂ + 2NaCl <- This process creates Cu(OH)₂, when it has already been made in point 1.

As I understand it currently, you can produce Cu(OH)2 multiple times in the competition in order to produce precursors to other copper compounds, but it doesn't count toward your total because it's not a unique compound.

Is this the correct interpretation? Or will adding a solution of hydroxide ions to a copper salt solution be illegal once Cu(OH)2 has been prepared?

Yeah, I'm a bit confused about that too. I will participate regardless. Unless of course the competition is only for Australians...? The title makes it slightly unclear.

woelen - 1-6-2015 at 12:27

I see it as a chain, and each step in the chain may only be used once. So, I interpret this as it is not allowed to make Cu(OH)2 and use that for different compounds.

So, CuSO4 --> Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(NO3)2 --> CuCO3 --> Cu(ClO4)2 --> CuO is a valid chain.

CuSO4 --> Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(NO3)2
Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(ClO4)2
Cu(OH)2 --> CuCl2 is not valid. This branching would make things quite easy, just prepare Cu(OH)2 and then use many different acids to make many other copper compounds.

One thing, however, is not clear to me yet. How precise should we be with hydrates? E.g. CuBr2.2H2O is a blue/green compound, which has salt-like character, while CuBr2 is a black covalent compound with very different properties. Do these count as two compounds? CuBr2 will be quite hard to make, but CuCl2 can be made from CuCl2.2H2O fairly easily by means of very careful heating.

As soon as Cu(OH)2, CuO and CuCO3 are used in the chain, this will become a hard (and interesting one) to continue. I find this a nice contest and hope to find time to participate.

DraconicAcid - 1-6-2015 at 12:42

Just to clarify, you don't have to use the same stuff for each step, right? If I make copper(II) sulphate pentahydrate in my fifth step, I can use copper(II) sulphate pentahydrate from a jar in step number six, rather than limiting myself to the actual product of step 5.

aga - 1-6-2015 at 13:14

It may be wise to limit this to compounds and not complexes so that the less expert of us (me included) could participate.

DraconicAcid - 1-6-2015 at 13:30

It may be wise to limit this to compounds and not complexes so that the less expert of us (me included) could participate.

Are you going to come up with a working definition of a complex that will exclude compounds, hydrates and double salts?

blogfast25 - 1-6-2015 at 13:33

Less is more!

gatosgr - 1-6-2015 at 13:36

Will the processes be posted here after the contest is over? I have exams going on now and can't participate.

aga - 1-6-2015 at 13:47

Are you going to come up with a working definition of a complex that will exclude compounds, hydrates and double salts?

As you can clearly see, any of that would be well beyond my capabilities.

At my low level of knowledge of the intricacies of chemistry my own efforts would be pointless, so i'll leave this one to the experts and await enlightenment.

DraconicAcid - 1-6-2015 at 13:49

Are you going to come up with a working definition of a complex that will exclude compounds, hydrates and double salts?

You never know. The experts might not have time to contribute anything.

aga - 1-6-2015 at 13:53

Best observe Rule41 in teaching : stamp on the idiot after they did the work.

My workload reduced, yours increased.

DA:0 aga:1

Zephyr - 1-6-2015 at 15:10

It may be wise to limit this to compounds and not complexes so that the less expert of us (me included) could participate.

Although complexes can sometimes be difficult to synthesize, they also occupy some of the most interesting metal compounds, and for that reason I think they should be included in this competition.

aga - 1-6-2015 at 15:20

Probably best to include all possibilities.

Us noobie onlookers will learn a lot from the sheer variety of the things that can be made.

Best of luck to all !

Volanschemia - 1-6-2015 at 17:55

Quote:

AU? You should do a gold contest.

I should! Hmm, ideas forming...

Quote:

I see it as a chain, and each step in the chain may only be used once. So, I interpret this as it is not allowed to make Cu(OH)2 and use that for different compounds.

So, CuSO4 --> Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(NO3)2 --> CuCO3 --> Cu(ClO4)2 --> CuO is a valid chain.

CuSO4 --> Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(NO3)2
Cu(OH)2 --> Cu(ClO4)2
Cu(OH)2 --> CuCl2 is not valid. This branching would make things quite easy, just prepare Cu(OH)2 and then use many different acids to make many other copper compounds.

One thing, however, is not clear to me yet. How precise should we be with hydrates? E.g. CuBr2.2H2O is a blue/green compound, which has salt-like character, while CuBr2 is a black covalent compound with very different properties. Do these count as two compounds? CuBr2 will be quite hard to make, but CuCl2 can be made from CuCl2.2H2O fairly easily by means of very careful heating.

As soon as Cu(OH)2, CuO and CuCO3 are used in the chain, this will become a hard (and interesting one) to continue. I find this a nice contest and hope to find time to participate.

Woelen is correct here. Once you have used ANY copper compound in the chain, it cannot be used again (hence the need for strategy). Hmm, about the hydrates. You are right in saying that there are some interesting properties that can be observed by changing the hydrate Woelen, however it will also open up a lot of VERY easy changes. What do you guys think?

Quote:

Just to clarify, you don't have to use the same stuff for each step, right? If I make copper(II) sulphate pentahydrate in my fifth step, I can use copper(II) sulphate pentahydrate from a jar in step number six, rather than limiting myself to the actual product of step 5.

Hmm, good point. I think yes, you can use alternate stock as long as the picture you include in your submission is of the synthesized compound. Of course you can still use your synthesized stock in the next reaction as well.

Quote:

Will the processes be posted here after the contest is over? I have exams going on now and can't participate.

Yes, they will be posted here after the closing date.

Quote:

It may be wise to limit this to compounds and not complexes so that the less expert of us (me included) could participate.

Quote:

Although complexes can sometimes be difficult to synthesize, they also occupy some of the most interesting metal compounds, and for that reason I think they should be included in this competition.

I have to agree with Pinkhippo11 here. Complexes will remain.

Quote:

Unless of course the competition is only for Australians...? The title makes it slightly unclear.

The competition is open to anyone in any country. Even interstellar competitors are welcome!

j_sum1 - 1-6-2015 at 18:10

My two cents on hydrates -- I think that a certain amount of knowledge of the hydrates is necessary to exploit them so I think it should count. After all, you have to be able to ascertain which particular hydrate you have and know that it is relatively pure.

I think a certain amount of leniency should be extended for recreating a hydrate that has already been visited however. Suppose you create some CuSO4.5H2O. You then make anhydrous coper sulfate. If your next step is to dissolve that in water, then technically you will revisit all the hydrated forms on your way to dissolution.

I propose that hydrates produced should count towards the final tally but that any of the hydrated variants be able to be used as a precursor to the next compound.

Volanschemia - 1-6-2015 at 18:12

A couple of other points bought to my attention:

Can metallic copper be counted?

Yes it can. CuCl₂ + Zn = Cu + ZnCl₂ is a valid step.

Do all of the compounds need to be dried? What if I make them in a solution with other stuff which would be a pain to seperate but thats gets purified by the next step?

This is a tricky one. Pictures of a dry compound would be preferable however this question has a valid point. Separating two soluble compounds from the same solution for display of the copper compound would be a bit of a pain. Although since it is not mandatory that you use the synthesized compound in the next synthesis (you can use alternate stock of the same compound), yields are not that important. Any feedback on this?

[Edit] Thanks for your feedback on the hydration j_sum. What you propose sounds very reasonable. Does everyone else agree?

[Edited on 2-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]

j_sum1 - 1-6-2015 at 18:15

Quote: Originally posted by woelen

I find this a nice contest and hope to find time to participate.

I, for one, am really looking forward to your entry woelen. I think with your knowledge and skills you could blitz this. But I also think that if you don't have a whole lot of time you could present a short chain with multiple compounds that no one else has heard of or thought of. Combined with some pretty pictures it could be an extremely interesting and educational exercise.

j_sum1 - 1-6-2015 at 18:22

This is a tricky one. Pictures of a dry compound would be preferable however this question has a valid point. Separating two soluble compounds from the same solution for display of the copper compound would be a bit of a pain. Although since it is not mandatory that you use the synthesized compound in the next synthesis (you can use alternate stock of the same compound), yields are not that important. Any feedback on this?

That's an easy one. If you don't dry it you miss out on the possibility of all the hydrates. Bonus if you do. Ok if you don't.

Another thought -- I propose that intermetallics be excluded -- if only because determining that you have made an intermetallic and not just a mixture pushes the competition outside the realm of what is accessible for most people.

(Successively casting a series of Cu-Zn intermetallics and then leaching the zinc only to do the same again with Cd would appear to be outside the spirit of the competition.)

Volanschemia - 1-6-2015 at 18:31

Quote:

OK then, assuming we are going ahead with hydrates (ie. I receive no objections in the next 20 hours) then we'll go with what j_sum says. If you are not drying your compound, the picture must instead be of the solution.

I also agree with excluding intermetallics as it does indeed go against the spirit of the competition.

The rules will be changed shortly to include intermetallics exclusion.

I also agree with the fact that leniency is required with the hydrates. Therefore, you can continue the chain with any hydrate as long as a hydrate is not counted twice.

Eg.

CuSO4.5H20 -> CuSO4 -> CuSO4.5H20 -> CuCl2 is valid, as long as you don't count the pentahydrate twice.

I am going to add the hydrate related rules to the rule book for now, but if people would like it removed, it can be as long as it is done before the opening of the competition.

[Edited on 2-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]

[Edited on 2-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]

[Edited on 2-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]

Volanschemia - 1-6-2015 at 18:51

Latest version of rules is now available through the same link on the first post. It now includes the rules regarding hydration and intermetallics.

Texium - 1-6-2015 at 18:51

Just checking because I didn't see this in the rules or the thread anywhere...
Are we allowed to start with any copper compound? And does our starting material count as one of the compounds, or will we have to make it again somewhere in the chain for it to count?

Volanschemia - 1-6-2015 at 19:00

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Just checking because I didn't see this in the rules or the thread anywhere...
Are we allowed to start with any copper compound? And does our starting material count as one of the compounds, or will we have to make it again somewhere in the chain for it to count?

Yes, you can start with a copper compound (or copper metal) and yes, the starting compound counts in the final tally.

j_sum1 - 1-6-2015 at 19:04

I think it is funny that when a competition comes up there is a frantic search for loopholes or ambiguity in the rules. It says something about the pedantic nature that we have acquired.

Thanks for organising this one TAS. I will watch closely.

starman - 1-6-2015 at 19:04

Mmm ligands ? EDTA, NTA, EDDA etc

Volanschemia - 1-6-2015 at 19:13

As in a Cu-EDTA coordination complex? Yes, as it says in the rules:

Quote:

Complexes are permitted if they have a name and are verified. If a complex that cannot be verified is created as an intermediate to a verified compound; that is acceptable as long as the unverified complex is not counted.
(ie. When making Chevreul's salt from CuSO4 and Na2S2O5, an unknown green complex is created preceding the formation of Chevreul's salt, this complex cannot be counted, but is permitted as an intermediate).

Volanschemia - 1-6-2015 at 19:25

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1

I think it is funny that when a competition comes up there is a frantic search for loopholes or ambiguity in the rules. It says something about the pedantic nature that we have acquired.

Thanks for organising this one TAS. I will watch closely.

Yes, it is amusing. You're welcome j_sum, and thankyou to you for your feedback and suggestions.

mayko - 2-6-2015 at 13:39

As it's written, a submission is judged on and only on the number of distinct copper compounds in the chain, is that correct? (ie, subjective novelty of compounds/techniques might get cool points but won't be scored )

szuko03 - 2-6-2015 at 13:43

I love this idea of contest this will make our hobby that much more valid! Especially since you guys in Australia have issues getting glassware at least this kind of gives you a reason should someone ask. "Oh I am entering an amateur chemistry contest about synthesizing copper compounds here take a look!" is better then "I just like turning one white crystalline solid into a blue crystalline solid, no they are not active in any right nor are they worth anything in fact doing said experiment just takes money and time and the final product I just put in a container and store for no apparent reason"

Volanschemia - 2-6-2015 at 14:17

Quote: Originally posted by mayko

As it's written, a submission is judged on and only on the number of distinct copper compounds in the chain, is that correct? (ie, subjective novelty of compounds/techniques might get cool points but won't be scored )

Yes, the main prize will be awarded to the person with the most distinct copper compounds. However, I will throw in a small secondary prize for the person with the most obscure copper compound and/or technique.

Volanschemia - 2-6-2015 at 14:28

OK, competition opens in about 1.5h.
The rules are now set, no further changes will be made unless a problem is bought to my attention that needs to be rectified.

Good luck!

DraconicAcid - 2-6-2015 at 14:48

OK, competition opens in about 1.5h.
The rules are now set, no further changes will be made unless a problem is bought to my attention that needs to be rectified.

Good luck!

Does that mean we're not supposed to have started any of our reactions yet?

Texium - 2-6-2015 at 16:25

OK, competition opens in about 1.5h.
The rules are now set, no further changes will be made unless a problem is bought to my attention that needs to be rectified.

Good luck!

Does that mean we're not supposed to have started any of our reactions yet?

Hehe... oops

Zephyr - 2-6-2015 at 17:03

I guess that means I'm also guilty...

Amos - 2-6-2015 at 17:32

Since we're taking hydrates, are double salts an option as well?

DraconicAcid - 2-6-2015 at 17:50

Since we're taking hydrates, are double salts an option as well?

They should be, unless that's what is meant by "intermetallics".

Zephyr - 2-6-2015 at 18:02

Since we're taking hydrates, are double salts an option as well?

They should be, unless that's what is meant by "intermetallics".

If they are allowed, wouldn't this make the competition very easy?
I was under the impression that it was fairly easy to create hydroxide and carbonate double salts with many other transition metals, thereby making the competition basically just a race for who could collect the most transition metal compounds...
Furthermore, it seems that these compounds would be difficult to name or identify, as it appears there is little information available on them.
IMO it would be simpler if these compounds where not allowed.

**amos has informed me that they aren't as easy to synthesize as I thought. Maybe they should be allowed? Maybe I should go do some more research...

[Edited on 6-3-2015 by Pinkhippo11]

DraconicAcid - 2-6-2015 at 18:47

I don't know of any hydroxide or carbonate double salts with copper. And the ones that I do know of aren't that easy to synthesize.

Volanschemia - 2-6-2015 at 19:07

OK, competition opens in about 1.5h.
The rules are now set, no further changes will be made unless a problem is bought to my attention that needs to be rectified.

Good luck!

Does that mean we're not supposed to have started any of our reactions yet?

No, it means you can now submit entries!

Quote: Originally posted by Pinkhippo11

Since we're taking hydrates, are double salts an option as well?

They should be, unless that's what is meant by "intermetallics".

Hmm, not sure about the double salts. I'm kinda leaning towards no, but if you want to persuade me, I'll listen.

[Edited on 3-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]

Volanschemia - 2-6-2015 at 21:51

OK, I've been persuaded on the double salts matter. They are permitted. I have also added a clause to the hydration rule that states:

Quote:

If a hydrate is created that is not documented, evidence of the hydration must be provided in the form a photo of a weighing scale readout of the compound.

Hydration can then be calculated based on the stoichiometry used in synthesizing the compound.

Also a couple of changes to the submissions section that allow for the permission to not dry compounds. The changes are:

Quote:

...theoretical maximum yield and the actual yield (only if dried) of the compound accompanying each.

Quote:

A photo of each compound (ideally dried, but not mandatory)...

The new rules can be found in the same link in the opening post of the thread (thanks Woelen for editing).

Hopefully we have ironed out all the flaws in the rules now and they won't have to be changed again.

[Edited on 3-6-2015 by TheAustralianScientist]

Volanschemia - 3-6-2015 at 02:24

Just a reminder that there is a secondary prize for the most interesting compound synthesized/technique used.

Praxichys - 3-6-2015 at 06:49

I have two questions:

(Question 1) Can we supplement yields with reagents we already have, or do we need to do the first reactions on a massive scale so we have some material to work with at the end?

Example:

1. I make tetraamine copper II nitrate
2. I convert it to basic copper II carbonate
3. I convert the carbonate to the chloride with HCl.

As long as I demonstrate that basic carbonate can be made from TACN, can I add basic carbonate I already have to boost the starting quantity in reaction 3? Is the spirit of the chain to use the SAME copper ions for the whole chain, or to show a chain of reactions?

(Question 2) The rules clearly state that the same compound cannot be used twice. To clarify, the following is illegal, correct?

1. Cu + HCl + H2O2 -> CuCl2
2. CuCl2 + H3PO4 -> Cu3(PO4)2
3. Cu3(PO4)2 + (HCl + NaF) -> CuF2

Because step 3 can be broken into:

Cu3(PO4)2 + HCl <-> H3PO4 + CuCl2 (illegal)
CuCl2 + NaF -> CuF2 + NaCl

Because even if this was done first:

HCl + NaF <->> HF + NaCl
Cu3(PO4)2 + HF <->> CuF2 + H3PO4

This would still exist in equilibrium:

NaCl + Cu3(PO4)2 <-> CuCl2 + Na(n)PO4(x)

DraconicAcid - 3-6-2015 at 07:06

Just to be clear, what do you mean by intermetallics?

DraconicAcid - 3-6-2015 at 07:19

Quote:

This was addressed. Intermediate compounds can be supplemented.

Quote:

I think that because you're not isolating or claiming CuCl2 as a product twice, this is allowed.

Amos - 3-6-2015 at 09:11

Just to be clear, what do you mean by intermetallics?

Compounds of copper and another metal in the 0 oxidation state, such as CuZn or Cu6Sn5.

Praxichys - 3-6-2015 at 11:31

Quote:

Cu3(PO4)2 + HCl <-> H3PO4 + CuCl2 (illegal)
CuCl2 + NaF -> CuF2 + NaCl

I think that because you're not isolating or claiming CuCl2 as a product twice, this is allowed.

Thank you.

What about solid intermediates? How about :

Cu carbonate + HNO3 -> Cu nitrate
Cu nitrate + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + HCl -> Cu chloride
Cu chloride + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + HOAc -> Cu acetate
Cu acetate + sodium carbonate (filter copper carbonate) + H2SO4 -> Cu sulfate
and so on.

If this violates a rule about isolating intermediates, can I use sand as an insoluble solid diluent to get around this?

I have a really great plan. Not sure if I'm going to participate or not, but I gave a really, really good plan.

DraconicAcid - 3-6-2015 at 11:36

Quote:

Cu3(PO4)2 + HCl <-> H3PO4 + CuCl2 (illegal)
CuCl2 + NaF -> CuF2 + NaCl

I think that because you're not isolating or claiming CuCl2 as a product twice, this is allowed.

I suspect that if you filter it out or isolate it by centrifuge, that would violate the spirit of the rules.

Volanschemia - 3-6-2015 at 14:08

I have two questions:

(Question 1) Can we supplement yields with reagents we already have, or do we need to do the first reactions on a massive scale so we have some material to work with at the end?

Example:

1. I make tetraamine copper II nitrate
2. I convert it to basic copper II carbonate
3. I convert the carbonate to the chloride with HCl.

As long as I demonstrate that basic carbonate can be made from TACN, can I add basic carbonate I already have to boost the starting quantity in reaction 3? Is the spirit of the chain to use the SAME copper ions for the whole chain, or to show a chain of reactions?

Yes, you can. But there is nothing stopping you also using your synthesized compound either. Either is legal.

(Question 2) The rules clearly state that the same compound cannot be used twice. To clarify, the following is illegal, correct?

1. Cu + HCl + H2O2 -> CuCl2
2. CuCl2 + H3PO4 -> Cu3(PO4)2
3. Cu3(PO4)2 + (HCl + NaF) -> CuF2

Because step 3 can be broken into:

Cu3(PO4)2 + HCl <-> H3PO4 + CuCl2 (illegal)
CuCl2 + NaF -> CuF2 + NaCl

Because even if this was done first:

HCl + NaF <->> HF + NaCl
Cu3(PO4)2 + HF <->> CuF2 + H3PO4

This would still exist in equilibrium:

NaCl + Cu3(PO4)2 <-> CuCl2 + Na(n)PO4(x)

The first reaction is illegal, the second one is legal. Since in the first one you are deliberately making CuCl2 for the purpose of turning it into CuF2, whereas in the second one, you are converting Cu3(PO4)2 directly to CuF2. Does that answer your question?

Just to be clear, what do you mean by intermetallics?

Compounds of copper and another metal in the 0 oxidation state, such as CuZn or Cu6Sn5.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Are you making Copper Carbonate in all of these steps and then converting it to a new compound each time, only to convert it back to Copper Carbonate and use it again? Because that is definitely not allowed.

I look forward to you entry Praxichys if you enter.

DraconicAcid - 3-6-2015 at 19:01

Just made a copper compound that was a brilliant yellow. I'm happy enough about it that I had to brag.

Volanschemia - 3-6-2015 at 20:52

Just made a copper compound that was a brilliant yellow. I'm happy enough about it that I had to brag.

Great! I'm looking forward to seeing the wide array of colours in the photos of everyone's compounds. I might make a collage of the best ones and put it in the Pretty Pictures thread (crediting each photo to the appropriate person of course).

DraconicAcid - 3-6-2015 at 21:44

Oh, yes, I can't wait to see all the different shades of blue and greenish-blue that copper will give us.

Volanschemia - 3-6-2015 at 22:04

Plus red, purple and going off you, yellow!

j_sum1 - 3-6-2015 at 22:48

Don't forget the brick red and black colours possible with Cu(I).

Volanschemia - 3-6-2015 at 23:26

Indeed.

mayko - 5-6-2015 at 14:57

... just when I'd finished cleaning up after the last copper carnival....

DraconicAcid - 5-6-2015 at 14:59

Question. Is it possible to react one copper compound with another to make a third?

Such as:
A -> B
B -> C
C + B -> D

(Where A, B, C, and D all contain copper.)

Volanschemia - 5-6-2015 at 15:57

Question. Is it possible to react one copper compound with another to make a third?

Such as:
A -> B
B -> C
C + B -> D

(Where A, B, C, and D all contain copper.)

Yes, that is valid. As long as the next compound is made from the previous one.

Volanschemia - 10-6-2015 at 15:01

Just letting everyone know, I will be away from 12th to 14th June.

The Chemistry Shack - 11-6-2015 at 18:36

Can we make salts with a metal cation and an anion containing copper (like the tetrahydroxy-cuprate ion)?

j_sum1 - 11-6-2015 at 18:45

TAS is away for a bit (see post above) but I believe that what you propose is entirely within the rules.

Volanschemia - 14-6-2015 at 01:41

Hey, I'm back! How's everyone going with their Copper chains?

Quote: Originally posted by The Chemistry Shack

Can we make salts with a metal cation and an anion containing copper (like the tetrahydroxy-cuprate ion)?

Yup, that's fine.

mayko - 22-6-2015 at 07:53

Quote:

Conversely, suppose a compound in the chain (perhaps not a complex) was distinct and described in the literature, but so unstable as to be necessarily transient. Would this add to the total count? (And how would the rules re: photography and documentation apply, if so?)

[Edited on 22-6-2015 by mayko]

The Volatile Chemist - 22-6-2015 at 09:31

Just saw this competition, gonna get started right away! Very Exciting, as the monetary part/incentive does not require donation, which I could not supply. I'm already formulating a wonderful plan. Just checking, may the sequence contain other transition metals whom are oxidized/complexed?
Thanks for doing this, by the way. This is the best competition I've seen yet.

Ag Ag Ag Ag Ag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTDUuBWGtpU

Oh this is so hilarious! I hope everyone who's seen Sharknado recalls that "Agagagag" is the sound a shark makes when a propane bottle is shoved into its mouth

[Edited on 6-22-2015 by The Volatile Chemist]

Volanschemia - 22-6-2015 at 20:37

Quote: Originally posted by mayko

I think I will have to draw the line at chain links that can be photographed, which means compounds that can't be photographed are not permitted. However, I will allow the unstable compound as an intermediate to a "photographable" compound as long as it is not counted as a part of the chain, similar to the undocumented complex rule.

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

Just saw this competition, gonna get started right away! Very Exciting, as the monetary part/incentive does not require donation, which I could not supply. I'm already formulating a wonderful plan. Just checking, may the sequence contain other transition metals whom are oxidized/complexed?
Thanks for doing this, by the way. This is the best competition I've seen yet.

Thanks TVC! I'm glad you like it and that you plan to participate. If by your question, you mean can compounds in the sequence contain other transition metals as well as copper (ie. Double Salts, complexes), then yes, as long as it is not an intermetallic (ie. CuZn). However it must contain copper in all compounds.

The Volatile Chemist - 23-6-2015 at 08:14

Cool. Would you be mad if I didn't collect like half of the compounds in my string of reactions(i.e. used a different source after the reaction?) How would the yields stuff work if I did this? I'm U2Uing a question to you, too.

gatosgr - 23-6-2015 at 13:28

So lets say I make CuX + Cl2 -> CuCl2 can I use CuX again or should I use CuCl2?

Texium - 23-6-2015 at 20:17

You'll have to use CuCl₂. Using CuX again would violate the rule about not repeating compounds. Otherwise you could just make a bunch of copper carbonate and dissolve little bits of it in every acid you can get your hands on, and that would make this competition rather boring.

Volanschemia - 23-6-2015 at 21:10

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist

Cool. Would you be mad if I didn't collect like half of the compounds in my string of reactions(i.e. used a different source after the reaction?) How would the yields stuff work if I did this? I'm U2Uing a question to you, too.

Do you mean like if you made Copper(II) Sulphate in a reaction, can you use Copper(II) Sulphate from a jar for the next reaction? If so, then yes, you can. Yields still apply, theoretical maximum and if you dry the compound, the actual yield.

Quote: Originally posted by gatosgr

So lets say I make CuX + Cl2 -> CuCl2 can I use CuX again or should I use CuCl2?

No, you can't use CuX because that's not the product of the previous reaction, and it also violates the rule about only using a compound once. It's perfectly fine to use CuCl2 for the next reaction however (as long as you haven't used it previously).

Volanschemia - 25-6-2015 at 18:08

So we have a week left until the competition deadline. Is everyone entering ok with that amount of time?

The Volatile Chemist - 27-6-2015 at 07:40

Yeah. I certainly won't have the originally planned 17 reaction chain, but I'll be fine

DraconicAcid - 27-6-2015 at 08:49

I think I'm going to have to do half a dozen reactions on Monday, just to link up the various chains I've made. And then the write-up....

Texium - 27-6-2015 at 09:36

Yeah, it'll be alright I guess. I've only done several reactions, but I have most of my chain planned out, so I should be fine if I get to work and stop procrastinating (damn it, Minecraft!).

[Edited on 6-27-2015 by zts16]

Zephyr - 27-6-2015 at 11:08

Yes I should be finished by then!

Volanschemia - 27-6-2015 at 19:14

Well, if no one has any major problems with the deadline, then it looks like we're on the home stretch!
Good luck everyone.

Volanschemia - 1-7-2015 at 17:47

Less than 24 hours until competition deadline. I haven't received any submissions yet, so I hope everyone is just waiting until the last minute, otherwise this could be a bit of a sad ending...

If anyone feels that the deadline is catching up with them too fast, please let me know and I can extend it a couple of days. I would rather have people submitting than people unable to submit because of a deadline.

DraconicAcid - 1-7-2015 at 18:14

I'm never going to get it typed up in 24 hours, particularly since I'm doing it on the computer at work, and the office is closed for Canada Day.

Volanschemia - 1-7-2015 at 19:10

OK, I have a couple of people unable to complete by the current deadline, so I am extending by 3 days.

The competition's closing date is now 6<sup>th</sup> July 0000UTC

The Volatile Chemist - 3-7-2015 at 08:30

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Yeah, it'll be alright I guess. I've only done several reactions, but I have most of my chain planned out, so I should be fine if I get to work and stop procrastinating (damn it, Minecraft!).

[Edited on 6-27-2015 by zts16]

Honestly, I've had the exact same distraction...Typing it up now...

aga - 3-7-2015 at 11:25

6th of July is just 3 days away !

How am i supposed to become a competent chemist with a clue what i'm doing in 3 days ?!?!?

This is obviously biased towards intelligent people who put in the effort, work things out, and dedicate themselves to learning chemistry.

That leaves us idle morons right out in the cold

blogfast25 - 3-7-2015 at 13:41

That leaves us idle morons right out in the cold

Or you could do the 'Classic SM Noobie Special': throw some copper stuff together from a far distance, keep your fingers crossed and hope for the best?

You know, like that card trick, 'pick up 52'?

aga - 3-7-2015 at 13:58

Thanks bloggers !

So if i actually Do something i may be in with a chance !

If it were all mere Words, i guess it'd be called Politics and not Chemistry.

[Edited on 3-7-2015 by aga]

DraconicAcid - 5-7-2015 at 09:59

I still have a few hours, right?

aga - 5-7-2015 at 12:07

Doh !

I completely forgot to do any work at all in order to participate or win.

Quick stab in the dark in lieu :-

Tetrachlorocuprate solution, lob in Al metal, Cu drops out.
Filter/wash the Cu and react with Sulphuric acid to get CuSO4.
Lob in sodium metabisulphite and heat to get Chevraul's Salt
or chuck in ammonia to get tetraaaaamine copper(II)sulphate complex.

That's 3.5 (or 4.5*) so the Bar isn't set too high

Best of luck to all !

Edit:

*Copper(I) chloride presumably being the extra one before Chevraul's

[Edited on 5-7-2015 by aga]

The Volatile Chemist - 5-7-2015 at 12:08

Yes, you do, I think something like 4 hrs.

aga - 5-7-2015 at 13:44

How long to go now ?

I need to calculate the beer vs time vs checking the website in case i won.

(BTW great to see you back TVC. Wasn't the same without you.)

mayko - 5-7-2015 at 13:51

ITS THE FINAL COUNTDOWN

aga - 5-7-2015 at 14:03

Wrong link.

this is it :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jK-NcRmVcw

DraconicAcid - 5-7-2015 at 14:49

Got my entry in.

Zephyr - 5-7-2015 at 15:55

Just submitted mine.

Volanschemia - 5-7-2015 at 22:59

Alrighty, looks like we're all finished up! I have received 5 submissions and am currently in the process of checking them through.
There are some great writeups and some very interesting compounds.
The secondary prize is going to be pretty difficult to choose.
If someone has missed the deadline for some reason, please still send it through as soon as possible and it may still be possible for it to be judged, no promises though.

I will post back here when I have checked through the submissions and have determined the winner.

DraconicAcid - 5-7-2015 at 23:03

I just realized that I missed including one of my pictures.....

Volanschemia - 6-7-2015 at 00:41

Yeah, I thought there was one missing. I sent you message in the Skype group about it. No drama, just email it through to me and I'll include it in the submission.

DraconicAcid - 6-7-2015 at 00:53

I'll send it in the morning. My morning...about 8 hours from now.

The Volatile Chemist - 7-7-2015 at 07:11