Sciencemadness Discussion Board

failed synth of copper cyanurate

Ramium - 21-5-2015 at 12:33

i mixed equal sized (1 flat teaspoon each in 300 ml water) solutions of copper sulphate and sodium dichloroisocyanurate according to this site

http://www.theamateurchemist.com/synthesis-of-copper-cyanura...

copper cyanurate should precipitate but I didn't get a precipitate. I waited 5 mins and still nothing. What did I do wrong?

aga - 21-5-2015 at 12:40

A lot of 'easy to follow recipes' tend to be less than easy.

First, make sure your Pool Shock is sodium dichloroisocyanurate, and not TCCA, which mine is.

Having the wrong reagents tend to make it work unexpectedly (i.e. not work).

TFSE turned this up :
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=29474


[Edited on 21-5-2015 by aga]

Ramium - 21-5-2015 at 12:47

thanks for your response I am 100% sure the iv got dichlor not trichlor it says on the packet sodium salt of dichloroisocyanuric acid.
it was very cold outside when I did the experiment (don't know if that has an effect or not)

Hawkguy - 21-5-2015 at 12:50

So what's the deal.. Couldn't you instead use copper carbonate and cyanuric acid? The carbonate will be simple enough, and maybe you can convert the TCCA to CA by addition of hydrochloric acid. I have no idea what I'm saying.

blogfast25 - 21-5-2015 at 13:13

Quote: Originally posted by Ramium  
i mixed equal sized (1 flat teaspoon each in 300 ml water) solutions of copper sulphate and sodium dichloroisocyanurate according to this site

http://www.theamateurchemist.com/synthesis-of-copper-cyanura...

copper cyanurate should precipitate but I didn't get a precipitate. I waited 5 mins and still nothing. What did I do wrong?


Try it again, this time using stoichiometric amounts of your reagents.
Quote: Originally posted by Hawkguy  
I have no idea what I'm saying.


Obviously. So why say it?


[Edited on 21-5-2015 by blogfast25]

Ramium - 21-5-2015 at 13:54



@Try it again, this time using stoichiometric amounts of your reagents.


ok so the molar mass molar mass of sodium dichloroisocyanurate is 219.95g/mol
and copper sulphate is 159.609g/mol

There doesn't appear to be any equation available though, so I can't work out the molar ratios. could you please help me?

I am a bit concerned because even if I got the amounts wrong
shouldn't there be a small amount of precipitate?



[Edited on 21-5-2015 by Ramium]

GrayGhost - 21-5-2015 at 14:05

Quote: Originally posted by Ramium  


@Try it again, this time using stoichiometric amounts of your reagents.


ok so the molar mass molar mass of sodium dichloroisocyanurate is 219.95g/mol
and copper sulphate is 159.609g/mol

There doesn't appear to be any equation available though, so I can't work out the molar ratios. could you please help me?

I am a bit concerned because even if I got the amounts wrong
shouldn't there be a small amount of precipitate?



[Edited on 21-5-2015 by Ramium]


Copper sulfate is usually pentahydrate 249.68 g/mol.

aga - 21-5-2015 at 14:16

Erm, get in line, get in line.

Somebody (preferably the OP) outline the actual reaction, then we can argue about the accuracy thereof.

Whether the reaction is done in a teapot filled with Heron feathers is irrelevant.

aga - 21-5-2015 at 14:21

I'll try to start it off

NaCUA(aq) + 1/2 CuSO4(aq) => CuHeron(s) + 12ty NAFeathers(flighty)

Perhaps somebody has something better.

Edit:

Added the states

[Edited on 21-5-2015 by aga]

blogfast25 - 21-5-2015 at 14:49

Quote: Originally posted by Ramium  


There doesn't appear to be any equation available though, so I can't work out the molar ratios. could you please help me?


[Edited on 21-5-2015 by Ramium]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dichloroisocyanurate

The Na, Cu complex has some interesting properties, if you scroll down a little.

Ramium - 21-5-2015 at 17:11

thanks. I found the equation

CuSO4 + 4Na(C3N3O3Cl2) = Na2[Cu(C3N3O3Cl2)4] + Na2SO4

so I need
249.68g = CuSO4
219.95 x4 = 879.8g = Na(C3N3O3Cl2)

sound right?

I would scale it down of course:)




I guess 'copper cyanurate' isn't really the proper name for what I am trying to make



[Edited on 22-5-2015 by Ramium]

blogfast25 - 21-5-2015 at 17:56

Quote: Originally posted by Ramium  

CuSO4 + 4Na(C3N3O3Cl2) = Na2[Cu(C3N3O3Cl2)4] + Na2SO4

so I need
249.68g = CuSO4
219.95 x4 = 879.8g = Na(C3N3O3Cl2)

sound right?



Yup. Try and make the CuSO4 solution 1 mol/L (1 M) and the sodium thingymejibs 4 M. Then mix equal volume amounts of these solutions and observe.

Ramium - 30-5-2015 at 17:52

I just added the sodium dichloroisocyanurate solution to the copper sulphate solution.
success!!! I got the purple precipitate! thanks guys;)

cyanureeves - 30-5-2015 at 19:39

ramium what amounts did you use?you said you were going to scale down so do you mind showing grams copper sulfate to gram dichloroisocyanurate? i am thinking about a cyanate for plating but a purple cyanurate would still be cool as hell. i am so tired of trying to make the lilac colored ammonium iron sulfate.one almost needs lab grade stuff just to do somethings.

Ramium - 30-5-2015 at 20:22

I used
Na(C3N3O3Cl2) = 109.975g
CuSO4 = 31.21g

divided molar amounts by 8;)

cyanureeves - 30-5-2015 at 20:48

oh ,thanx man! and yes molar amounts by 8:D,lets throw some dentistry in the mix.:o

Pumukli - 31-5-2015 at 02:05

Good news, Ramium :-)

Just to clarify that you used ANHYDROUS copper sulfate? Did you dehydrated it yourself (maybe in an oven)?

blogfast25 - 31-5-2015 at 07:10

Quote: Originally posted by Ramium  
I just added the sodium dichloroisocyanurate solution to the copper sulphate solution.
success!!! I got the purple precipitate! thanks guys;)


It always helps to describe your experiment a bit more fully.

Others might want to replicate it. Which is in part what science is about.

Ramium - 31-5-2015 at 13:34

Quote: Originally posted by Pumukli  
Good news, Ramium :-)

Just to clarify that you used ANHYDROUS copper sulfate? Did you dehydrated it yourself (maybe in an oven)?


no. I used copper sulphate pentahydrate

Ramium - 31-5-2015 at 13:51



@It always helps to describe your experiment a bit more fully.


ok so I dissolved 31.21g of pure copper sulphate pentahydrate in
500ml of water. then I measured out 109.975g of pure sodium dichloroisocyanurate dihydrate and dissolved that in 500ml of water then I added the copper sulphate solution to the sodium dichloroisocyanurate one. a purple precipitate of sodium copper dichloroisocyanurate formed which I collected using gravity filtration. I then dried the sodium copper dichloroisocyanurate in the sun.

CuSO4 + 4 Na(C3N3O3Cl2) = Na2[Cu(C3N3O3Cl2)4] + Na2SO4

I don't think copper cyanurate is the correct name for this compound. Wikipedia refers to it as sodium copper dichloroisocyanurate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dichloroisocyanurate





[Edited on 31-5-2015 by Ramium]

blogfast25 - 31-5-2015 at 13:55

You see? That wasn't so hard now, was it? :)