Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Tutoring

Tutoring

szuko03 - 2-5-2015 at 11:09

So I was joking with a good friend of mine about how much money I could charge for a hands on chemistry tutoring in the summer, like if I matched what the area high school teach for chemistry and do experiments. Obviously faced with all of the danger associated with it and the fact eventually someone would sign up just to get hurt and sue it was pretty clear it was a joke.

But then I thought seriously what if I did lecture style tutoring with a lab as the focal point? If I keep it extremely basic and stuff theres no way I couldnt teach basic chemistry, that is probably the part I (all of us) are the strongest in just because its basic. Is that something someone could do? Has anyone done it? I ask because when I was in college I could have been a chemistry tutor so for a small one on one or something you dont need any formal degree I am assuming. Has anyone tried opening their lab for a lecture style learning course? It would be a great way to show the community what amateur chemistry is really like, in that your not making drugs with your lab its for educational purposes only.

I just thought this was a place to toss the idea around.

gdflp - 2-5-2015 at 12:18

I have seriously considered a similar idea. The issue however is liability. No matter how basic the chemistry is kept, dangerous chemicals will likely be present, even if not used, and glassware will be used. ~Most~ High school students are remarkably immature and if any glassware is used whatsoever there is a chance of breakage and thus injury from the broken glass. Any heat source can cause burns, and solvents such as ethanol could catch fire. Any of these injuries could result in a claim on your insurance, especially with the trigger happy lawyers throughout the US. If homeowners finds out that a claim was placed on your insurance as a result of having a chemistry lab, they could likely drop you and it may be difficult to find another insurance company.

I think it's a good idea, but I think the legal aspects need to be carefully monitored. In addition, there is always a chance that someone calls the cops thinking that it's a meth lab.

szuko03 - 2-5-2015 at 12:33

And thats true but what if the reactions were done by the teacher only. I would think the risks could be minimized especially since things dont just happen, if you pick things that you would have to really really make a huge mistake on to it even be remotely dangerous I think you could remove it far enough where you could be comfortable doing it. The risk of injury is really the only issue I can think of. The nice thing about chemistry is sure there may be more then one path to a solution but there are direct and well traveled paths so if you design a curriculum like a teacher you wouldnt risk giving false information or getting stumped somehow yourself.

I think we all run the risk of people thinking its a meth lab. I dont think you could have a much better reason then you teach chemistry to the areas children as a second job and your damn good at it too because you offer a different approach.

aga - 2-5-2015 at 12:34

If i were in the USA i'd happily pay for 1-2-1 summer tutoring and make it worthwhile in $.

The Teacher would need to know seriously more than me, so 1st year students or higher

Disclaimer/no trace of any evidence in case of accident etc etc.

To be honest, i'd pay to just watch someone doing interesting synths with apparatus/processes i have not seen before.

aga - 2-5-2015 at 12:51

Quote: Originally posted by szuko03

So I was joking with a good friend of mine about how much money I could charge for a hands on chemistry tutoring in the summer

To put some $ value on it, i'd pay $100 a day to go through 1 to 3 synths a day, start to finish (obviously depends on the synth).

Edit:

To be fair, i'm probably atypical for your target market (if that indeed exists at all)

[Edited on 2-5-2015 by aga]

szuko03 - 2-5-2015 at 13:07

I know in effect we would all do that and that is basically what college is lol but an independent chemist running it would have the ability to charge by the class unlike a university. But for the purpose of convocation, considering I believe a large part of us are capable of doing this, it is for demonstration only as in the students do not touch the glass at least when its being used.

But I would imagine if a highly skilled chemist worked with his lawyer he could come up with a way to do what your suggesting without assuming liability.

[Edited on 2-5-2015 by szuko03]

Chemosynthesis - 2-5-2015 at 13:09

It may not exactly be the same, but there are often school organizations, ACS symposiums, department interest fairs, and the like that allow students to perform lab-like demonstrations and teach some basic chemistry concepts, even in outreach settings such as high schools.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 2-5-2015 at 13:26

You can make a lot of money from chemistry tutoring even without lab. Skyrockets if you can lure a group of homeschoolers.

szuko03 - 2-5-2015 at 13:38

Well I live in a small town that is neighbored by 2 or 3 "rich suburbs" so I know I could get a few people to sign up a session if I were to do it myself. And they have plenty of massive tutor operations and I am sure some of them are chemistry based but the thing that I offer that others wouldnt would be You sign up for a course with Szuko, hes the teacher grader and what have you. And a lack of rigid constructs means that it could be taught in an alternative manner and appeal to those who may not grow as quickly in a more classical setting.

I know the lab isnt needed but many of us have one, it could be considered the draw in a sense. You dont get someone who is in a sense "forced" to teach for a career but rather someone whose passion is the subject someone who lives for chemistry so much it comes out of him in the form of teaching.

Texium - 3-5-2015 at 07:22

This is something that I'd like to do someday. I think it would be great to have these tutoring groups all over the world eventually. It would really help promote home chemistry in a direct way, and make it more of an everyday thing that people should be more familiar with.
Also, can't you just ask that all of the students read and agree to a disclaimer stating that they must follow all of the necessary safety rules and whatnot to avoid liability? That's what they make us do at school.

szuko03 - 3-5-2015 at 07:43

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Also, can't you just ask that all of the students read and agree to a disclaimer stating that they must follow all of the necessary safety rules and whatnot to avoid liability? That's what they make us do at school.

I'm sure you could have a lawyer write up something that covers a lot of things but there is always some liability due to negligence something as simple as a slip and fall.

byko3y - 3-5-2015 at 09:52

I hate this shit. Professional chemistry is all about losing your fingers and eyes, everything else is just a kindergarden level or pussy-beware-deadly-HCl level. What doesn't kill tou makes you stronger.
I breathed in ammonia and different amines, HCl, HBr, HI, Cl2, Br2, fumes of H2SO4, was burning cyanogen, spilled conc H2SO4 and NaOH so many times on my unprotected hands (HCl and glacial acetic aced are not even dangerous),lost my hearing for a few minutes after testing some fun stuff, got a dillute H2SO4 into my eye one time, although I have all personal protecting equipment required (hands, eyes, ears, breathing); burned a decent piece of the floor. And I have never ever seen a fume hood in my life.
I'm just sad to see some pussies afraid of breaking their limbs while doing sports. Come on, you will die anyway - just choose funnier way to die.

Texium - 3-5-2015 at 10:02

Quote: Originally posted by byko3y

I hate this shit. Professional chemistry is all about losing your fingers and eyes, everything else is just a kindergarden level or pussy-beware-deadly-HCl level. What doesn't kill tou makes you stronger.
I breathed in ammonia and different amines, HCl, HBr, HI, Cl2, Br2, fumes of H2SO4, was burning cyanogen, spilled conc H2SO4 and NaOH so many times on my unprotected hands (HCl and glacial acetic aced are not even dangerous),lost my hearing for a few minutes after testing some fun stuff, got a dillute H2SO4 into my eye one time, although I have all personal protecting equipment required (hands, eyes, ears, breathing); burned a decent piece of the floor. And I have never ever seen a fume hood in my life.
I'm just sad to see some pussies afraid of breaking their limbs while doing sports. Come on, you will die anyway - just choose funnier way to die.

Well, whatever. You want to die young from some reckless accident, then go ahead. Personally, I'd rather live a long and happy life and be able to enjoy chemistry for many more years. That isn't to say that all of the legal implications that come with educating people about chemistry are good. They're not. They are very limiting and rather pointless. If someone is irresponsible and gets their self hurt, that's pretty much on them. As long as the safety equipment is provided and students are taught how to use it, there should be no grounds to sue the instructor or the associated organization. Unfortunately, the justice system says otherwise.

szuko03 - 3-5-2015 at 10:29

Quote: Originally posted by byko3y

You will quickly find you are the minority.

aga - 3-5-2015 at 10:35

In the vein of money making ....

If you're surrounded by rich 'burbs, why not do Practical lessons that would not really need that much on the way of actual chemistry ?

E.G. A Simple Test for a mom to do to see if their kid has traces of secondary amines on their clothes.

How to tell if your kid is spaced out far beyond Pluto, or simply moongrazing.

What to Do if you find your kid not breathing, evidence of drugs nearby etc etc.

These kind of things Sell in large doses.

You can make money from Fear and Ignorance every time.

When you have to Teach before you can Sell, that hardly ever makes any money.

aga - 3-5-2015 at 10:40

Quote: Originally posted by byko3y

I hate this shit. Professional chemistry is all about losing your fingers and eyes, everything else is just a kindergarden level

Your post has a Kindergarten ring to it.

'Professional' basically means 'Getting Paid For It'.

It's easier to repeat the Getting Paid part when you have all available eyes still functioning after the procedure.

Not everything has to explode to be interesting, as you will no doubt discover, provided you have at least 1 remaining eye to see it.

szuko03 - 3-5-2015 at 10:59

Well the purpose of this thread was to generate discussion based on profiting off of our specific type of skill set. Because the world doesn't fully understand what we do so we can use what we know to profit and maybe not through fear and stuff but those ideas are good for discussing too.

But as far as my exact spot I used it because and perhaps I'm mistaken but it is probably mirrored in a lot of members. I want this to be about any type of profiting through chemistry almost all of our members can do. It's extremely fun and useful so there has to be tons of side projects to discuss.

[Edited on 3-5-2015 by szuko03]

aga - 3-5-2015 at 11:11

Ah. Idealistic stuff where everyone gains has never worked for me.

Focusing on the $ and getting my $100k in worked better.

It's a bit like fishing : you can really only be very good at catching fish on your own, or with others equally as good at catching fish as yourself.

It only takes one idiot who likes to play loud music and talk all the time, and nobody catches any fish at all.

Maybe it's an Age thing.

If it's $ you want, forget Evangelical Chemistration.

Sell what people Want To Buy, not what you want to sell.

Edit:

For the Young, the Very Best way to 'Change Everything To Make It Better' is simply to become part of the System, do extremely well, become President, or even get a job with some Actual power and change things from the INSIDE.

Shouting about it and fiddling around from the Outside changes nothing.

[Edited on 3-5-2015 by aga]

szuko03 - 3-5-2015 at 11:20

True but I ready missed the boat on the true secondary amine test market in the north east. The music scene already has an organization that sells them pretty cheap. I know it's not the same market but that ones way bigger.

But no I give you credit now if I were to follow the DARE and MAD convention circuit I could make a good amount of money.

[Edited on 3-5-2015 by szuko03]

aga - 3-5-2015 at 11:24

You perhaps missed the Bigger market : The Mothers.

How to tell if Your Kid is using Drugs : $50

Drugs testing Kit : $25 (can be used 5 times)

etc.

The Kids have never been good earners, so go where the $ resides : the parents.

aga - 3-5-2015 at 11:34

Thinking up a sales pitch, assuming you're about 14 to 18 years old ..

"Your kids may or may not be using Drugs.

Does that worry you ?

Are you sure they tell you the Truth about everything ?

Do You wash their clothes ?

Five drops of Szuko #2 will show you for sure if your kid had Meth in their pocket.

A mere 4 drops of Szuko #5 will show you straight away if they ever had Cannabis in there.

One drop of Szuko #9 will show if they got their girlfriend pregnant.

All indicators colors wash away in a normal wash ..." (terms and conditions apply)

Anyone with a brain could make a Fortune out of that in the USA.

WGTR - 3-5-2015 at 13:16

Quote: Originally posted by aga

Sell what people Want To Buy, not what you want to sell.

The understatement of the century. In the present age of "follow your dreams", this point is missed very often.

However, once finished with college I plan to volunteer, teaching chemistry and other sciences at private schools and/or homeschooling functions. It's very much needed. My day job would be used to buy materials and provide the funding necessary to make that happen. Outside funding almost always has strings attached to it. A self-funded teacher has more freedom to set up a curriculum, and doesn't rely on school funding to purchase materials.

After a number of years the teaching thing may end up paying me well, but I'm not counting on that.

j_sum1 - 3-5-2015 at 15:44

Chiming in as a teacher here.
Having knowledge and understanding is one thing. Disseminating that is quite another. It is a mistake to think, "I know this stuff therefore I can teach it." It doesn't always work that way. Yes you will find highly motivated students who value learning and who will pick up a decent understanding through mere exposure. And you will also find people who have a passion, are lucid and explain things well and in an entertaining fashion who do a reasonable job of teaching. However, there is a reason why teachers are trained professionals.
To make a proper stab at this idea and to maximise profitability, having a demonstrated teaching ability would be a prerequisite. Something to consider.

byko3y - 4-5-2015 at 01:58

Quote: Originally posted by aga

the Very Best way to 'Change Everything To Make It Better' is simply to become part of the System, do extremely well, become President, or even get a job with some Actual power and change things from the INSIDE.
Shouting about it and fiddling around from the Outside changes nothing.

We are the actual power, though many people don't understand it and don't use their power. Just like they don't understand that president is not the actual power.
People want to buy things they are tought to buy via TV and other media. I'm pretty sure people can easily live without 95% of stuff they buy. So create you own demand - and people will buy your stuff. This is the way most economics work, especialy those of north america and europe.

Quote: Originally posted by zts16

Well, whatever. You want to die young from some reckless accident, then go ahead

In fact, I have never had any injury. Mostly because I know the things I do, and I know what to do in case things are going not as expected.
And I'm really paranoid because of safety in fact. For example, I do not handle more than 10g of primary explosive, I don't try any synthesis with phosgen, cyanides (the only one with cyanogen was small scale and the cyanogen was burning as soon as it came from the reaction) , I don't use water cooling for sulfuric acid distillation, and I try to absorb any dangerous stuff that may coem from the reaction.
I just wanted to say that you can't learn chemistry without taking risks. Next time you will try your reaction and something will go wrong, and you will have no idea about what to do, because all your life you were doing safe experiments.
Also, after you spilled a lot of corrosive shit on you hands, your skin becomes like 2-3 mm thick alkali and acid resistant.

diddi - 4-5-2015 at 01:59

ditto for j_sum's post

knowing and teaching are very different beasts.
how many times as a student do you lament that some lecturer knows heaps but just cant teach?

[Edited on 4-5-2015 by diddi]

diddi - 4-5-2015 at 02:05

I don't know that I would be proud if spilling a lot of corrosive shit on myself

Praxichys - 4-5-2015 at 05:22

Quote: Originally posted by diddi

I don't know that I would be proud if spilling a lot of corrosive shit on myself

Agreed. Byko3y, you wouldn't break your fingers in a cake mixer to make yourself look like a good chef, would you?

If you want bragging rights, join your local military. Chemistry is not trying to kill you; you're just being reckless. Spilling acid on yourself is neither heroic nor reinforces your ability to be a chemist.

When you eventually hurt yourself badly, it will make all of us look bad, and potentially put a ban on even more valuable OTC chemicals.

byko3y - 4-5-2015 at 07:52

Quote: Originally posted by diddi

how many times as a student do you lament that some lecturer knows heaps but just cant teach?

I knew good teachers that knew nothing real, I knew bad teachers that knew nothing real. I knew bad teachers that knew something, I know really few teachers that know and can do real world things, and all of them don't just teach people. Most of times they are chiefs or other kind of leader.
You can't teach people anything - but you can train them to perform some actions without their conscious effort involved. A human can learn, but he can't be tought. Corrupt military-like schools all over the goddamn world made people believe they can actually be tought beyond their will.
So, basically, a human needs to be given with some instruments or some hints about what to obtain or what to perform, and maybe some safety precautions to learn the science. Hints, not the instructions.
If you look at most of the books written for teaching, you will see that most of them are about mindless repeating, despite the fact they try to explain mechanisms (most of times author himself doesn't understand the mechanism :mad:

).
As you can see, someone like Shulgin can be a good teacher and he really is. And I'm pretty sure that most of skilled chemist capable of basic social interaction are able to help people in their learning.
But often people claim that a narrowed specialist barely capable of learning some other science branch himself is a skilled chemist. And often people claim a clown is a skilled teacher. Yes, his lessons are funny. And completely useless. Just like the knowledge of a narrowed chemist is almost useless for a regular person. Just like thousands of graduate students barely capable of repeating the stuff they used to know few years ago wasted few years of their lifes for nothing.
You will forget a mistake that made you fail your exams, but you will never forget a mistake that made you loose your finger. This is a basic rule of learning: if you don't experience strong emotions - you don't learn. You will forget everything in few month, and the whole time spent on "learning" will be completely wasted.
It's not about losing fingers - it's about hurting yourself in case of mistake. And if you don't make mistakes - you don't do nothing. Learning is all about making mistakes.
I can remember some thing I learned when I was 8 years old, and I can barely remember the things I was tought at school and college. Recently I was reading my old exercise book and going like "is it mine? Was I learning all this stuff?", despite the fact I can understand the things that are written there.

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys

When you eventually hurt yourself badly, it will make all of us look bad, and potentially put a ban on even more valuable OTC chemicals.

Bans are not about your safety, but about your freedom.
I can give you a nice example. Picric acid in small amounts is a completely safe chemical within a laboratory. Even it's salts can barely detonate, some iron of lead salt is reaquired. So why the hell would you declare it to be a dangerous chemical? You can't even detonate a sodium salt with a hammer!

aga - 4-5-2015 at 12:45

The ability to Teach is a skill, and requires a lot of knowledge regarding Teaching.

It is a rare individual that can Teach, and also has a deep knowledge and Passion for their chosen subject.

I for one cannot Teach : i lack empathy and Understanding of others.

If i say something once, why do they not Get It already ?

j_sum1 - 4-5-2015 at 12:48

@byko3y
This is the bit where you show that you really have little understanding of teaching -- or learning for that matter.

diddi - 4-5-2015 at 15:38

some one could show me how to paint but I will never have "the gift" of painting and my art would be awful.

there are people with "the gift" of teaching and others just cant. some will admit they "wouldn't make a teacher's bootlace" and others will persist in claiming they can teach others despite a lack of interest or success.

I am a shit painter. so there! but, even tho I have not been classroom teaching for many years, I am still being sought to tutor my ex-student's children.

byko3y - 4-5-2015 at 22:10

j_sum1, what do you mean under term "teaching"? What should a person do which can be called "teaching"?

Quote: Originally posted by diddi

others will persist in claiming they can teach others despite a lack of interest or success.

They actually can. But it's not teaching, but training. You force people to do things, and incedentally they can train their muscles or brains. The trained person would need a supervisor to continue performing the tasks he is trained to do. But he will not be able to continuously perform them without a supervisor, until he really had a passios to learn, and in this case he needs no "teacher".

j_sum1 - 4-5-2015 at 22:47

A skilled teacher will be aware of different learning styles, able to recognise them, able to adjust any activity to accommodate these, able to undertake informal assessment (which students may not even be aware of) to determine what students know and again adjust accordingly. Teachers have a range of communication strategies. They are trained in the realm of risk assessment and management. They are professionally trained to deal with the full spectrum of students' needs of which the acquisition of knowledge and skills are but two. They design and modify curriculum documentation and practice to align with the ever-changing requirements of political and governing bodies. They report extensively and in detail to the multitude of stakeholders in the education process. etc. etc. There is a lot more to it than just spouting forth information. That might get you by for a while and even earn a few quick bucks. But in any endeavour that is profitable and sustainable for any length of time, you are going to want to address some of the other matters. And ultimately, teaching is a calling more than merely a vocation. It actually requires a certain kind of person to do it well and enjoy it. If you have it, then kudos to you. But it is unwise to assume that you can do this gig just because you understand the material.

byko3y - 4-5-2015 at 23:45

I know how the teachers are trained. They are trained to obey the constraints they are given and to make students behave like they care and know something, giving a false motivation to do things they don't want to do. Most students have no idea about what they really want to learn, because they mostly had no choice nor practice of making decision.
The job of the teacher you mentioned can be called a job of a military officer: training the soldiers, adapting the methods for every group of soldiers, etc. Yes, it's really difficult to make the person obey beyond their will, but it's not a job of a true teacher.
Btw, right now I'm learning chemistry by myself (my college specialization was not chemistry), and for the 1st year student I show incredible results considering I don't even had any chemist nearby nor I had any chemical equipment, and also I have another full time job.

Was reading this one in my native language, finally found the original english book title, written by a genius John Taylor Gatto "An Underground History of American Education"

[Edited on 5-5-2015 by byko3y]

j_sum1 - 5-5-2015 at 02:30

sigh.
Again you have demonstrated that you know little of teaching and have presumed to know what motivates us. I am not going to labour the point. Just to say you don't really get it.

Besides, I am off on a school camp for three days. Let's just say that the picture you have described does not remotely resmble what I will be doing over the next 72 hours.

byko3y - 5-5-2015 at 03:07

You tel me that I wrong, though you refuse to tell me exactly where I'm wrong. I see no contradictions between your previuos post and my previuos one, and all you said there is just a common things like "we try to teach people, to use different methods for that, to adapt, to communicate, to make people happier, to give people things they need".
In fact, when I try to ask teachers to explain what they think is their job, it ends with something like "I am not going to labour the point. Just to say you don't really get it". Give it up, I just can't understand, because I can't understand.

Oscilllator - 5-5-2015 at 03:47

Just thought I'd weigh in here:

I actually DO tutor people in chemistry. I am currently only tutoring one person in their final year of high school, and at the moment we are covering the molar heat of combustion of alcohols. I actually quite enjoy teaching people chemistry, and try to bring back the topics to everyday life and tell stories about some of the experiments I have done so as to try and make the subject as interesting as possible to somebody who isn't hugely interested in the subject.
On the topic of teaching in general though, I consider myself to be fairly good at it. I often help people in classes, and several times people have commented that I am pretty good teaching in general. However it is very difficult to obtain genuine feedback from the people I actually tutor, as of course most people feel socially obligated to say "Oh yes thank you so much etc etc".

diddi - 5-5-2015 at 04:09

so byko3y, what do you do when the student just does not get what you are saying?

byko3y - 5-5-2015 at 04:16

Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator

final year of high school... we are covering the molar heat of combustion of alcohols

I donno how to tell you, but... nobody in high school cares about molar heat of combustion, everyone will forget it in 1-2 years, and I'm pretty sure that the only man who can remember this stuff of all my classmates is me (we were also tought the heat of combustion).
They main problem I try to emphasize is: when someone is not interested in subject, then either he knows nothing about it and your jobs is to show them the subject, or they just don't care and as a teacher you should just leave them - this is the most correct thing to do, and it's impossible within a regular school, as you might already know.
I've spent 15 years of my life for useless things I try to describe here, and only now I found my passion. Once again: I was tought chemistry in high schlool and college by 3 different teachers, and found it all boring.

byko3y - 5-5-2015 at 04:43

diddi, first and foremost - I don't try to teach people that don't want to learn. That simple. The history shows us that forcing people to do things beyond their will is a good way to make them hate the work they do. Until you just refuse to see the facts and prefer to use pedagogical manuals as the only source of information.