Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Himalayan salt (faked?)

j_sum1 - 25-4-2015 at 17:23

Pink "Himalayan Rock Salt" (from Pakistan) is a bit of a current food fad as well as fuelling a spectrum of quackery health claims. (Salt caves and positive ion lamps anyone?)

Composition, from what I can gather is about 95% NaCl with a mix of other halides of group 1(mostly) and group 2 metals with a smattering of alumino-silicates and a couple of percent of calcium sulfate plus the oft-lauded trace elements. The pink colour is claimed to come from iron oxides.
http://www.saltnews.com/chemical-analysis-natural-himalayan-...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalayan_salt#Mineral_composit...

I procured some last week with the intention of giving it a cursory analysis. It came in a little grinder at a ridiculous price. After some quick tests I am developing a suspicion that this particular product is not what it claims to be and is in fact merely coloured salt.

Observations
taste test
No significant taste difference that could not be accounted for with a different crystal size.

Fe3+
Negative result with ammonium thiocyanate

Fe2+
Not expecting anything here but negative test with ferroxyl solution

appearance on dissolving
Some insoluble particles -- pink in colour settled to bottom. The remainder dissolved clear -- no evidence of suspension. The solution had a light pink colour also.

Ammonia test
I added concentrated ammonia to test for the presence of dissolved cations with insoluble oxides/hydroxides. No precipitates formed.
I know this is not a brilliant test for Ca2+ and the calcium, if present may be as an insoluble sulfate. I was surprised to see nothing at all though.

So, a couple of questions.
How valid are my suspicions on the legitimacy of the sample I have? (Not that it matters for any practical purpose.)
What other straightforward tests could I do to investigate this product?

Hawkguy - 25-4-2015 at 17:32

I too have noticed the 'amazing health benefits' of Himalayan salt in hipster tabloid articles and on the internet. So far I don't see how it is any different from regular 99% Sodium Chloride. Until someone can prove how this is so great, it will rest in my BS file with cannabis oil and silver water.

gdflp - 25-4-2015 at 17:46

Ugh, I personally believe that these claims are BS. My uncle's current girlfriend swears by the stuff, she told me once that it would lower high blood pressure and raise low blood pressure:mad: She claims it was recommended to her by her "longevity doctor", I could barely keep myself from laughing due to the ridiculousness and the eye rolls in the background from my uncle, who's a trained paramedic.:D Somehow, I don't think that their relationship is going to last long.

If the color was due to iron oxide, wouldn't you need to acidify the solution slightly to bring the iron into solution for it to be detected by the thiocyanate test? This link has a spectral analysis in the FAQ's for Himalayan salt, 38.9ppm may be below the detection threshold for the thiocyanate test as well.
Quote:

Hydrogen H 1 0.30 g/kg DIN
Lithium Li 3 0.40 g/kg AAS
Beryllium Be 4 <0.01 ppm AAS
Boron B 5 <0.001 ppm FSK
Carbon C 6 <0.001 ppm FSK
Nitrogen N 7 0.024 ppm ICG
Oxygen O 8 1.20 g/kg DIN
Flouride F- 9 <0.1 g/kg Potentiometer
Sodium Na+ 11 382.61 g/kg FSM
Magnesium Mg 12 0.16 g/kg AAS
Aluminum Al 13 0.661 ppm AAS
Silicon Si 14 <0.1 g/kg AAS
Phosphorus P 15 <0.10 ppm ICG
Sulfur S 16 12.4 g/kg TXRF
Chloride Cl- 17 590.93 g/kg Gravimetrie
Potassium K+ 19 3.5 g/kg FSM
Calcium Ca 20 4.05 g/kg Titration
Scandium Sc 21 <0.0001 ppm FSK
Titanium Ti 22 <0.001 ppm FSK
Vanadium V 23 0.06 ppm AAS
Chromium Cr 24 0.05 ppm AAS
Manganese Mn 25 0.27 ppm AAS
Iron Fe 26 38.9 ppm AAS
Cobalt Co 27 0.60 ppm AAS
Nickel Ni 28 0.13 ppm AAS
Copper Cu 29 0.56 ppm AAS
Zinc Zn 30 2.38 ppm AAS
Gallium Ga 31 <0.001 ppm FSK
Germanium Ge 32 <0.001 ppm FSK
Arsenic As 33 <0.01 ppm AAS
Selenium Se 34 0.05 ppm AAS
Bromine Br 35 2.1 ppm TXRF
Rubidium Rb 37 0.04 ppm AAS
Strontium Sr 38 0.014 g/kg AAS
Ytterbium Y 39 <0.001 ppm FSK
Zirconium Zr 40 <0.001 ppm FSK
Niobium Nb 41 <0.001 ppm FSK
Molybdenum Mo 42 0.01 ppm AAS
Technetium Tc 43 unstable artificial isotope
Ruthenium Ru 44 <0.001 ppm FSK
Rhodium Rh 45 <0.001 ppm FSK
Palladium Pd 46 <0.001 ppm FSK
Silver Ag 47 0.031 ppm AAS
Cadmium Cd 48 <0.01 ppm AAS
Indium In 49 <0.001 ppm FSK
Tin Sn 50 <0.01 ppm AAS
Antimony Sb 51 <0.01 ppm AAS
Tellurium Te 52 <0.001 ppm FSK
Iodine I 53 <0.1 g/kg potentiometrie
Cesium Cs 55 <0.001 ppm FSK
Barium Ba 56 1.96 ppm AAS/TXR
Lanthan La 57 <0.001 ppm FSK
Cerium Ce 58 <0.001 ppm FSK
Praseodynium Pr 59 <0.001 ppm FSK
Neodymium Nd 60 <0.001 ppm FSK
Promethium Pm 61 unstable artificial isotope N/A
Samarium Sm 62 <0.001 ppm FSK
Europium Eu 63 <3.0 ppm TXRF
Gadolinium Gd 64 <0.001 ppm FSK
Terbium Tb 65 <0.001 ppm FSK
Dysprosium Dy 66 <4.0 ppm TXRF
Holmium Ho 67 <0.001 ppm FSK
Erbium Er 68 <0.001 ppm FSK
Thulium Tm 69 <0.001 ppm FSK
Ytterbium Yb 70 <0.001 ppm FSK
Lutetium Lu 71 <0.001 ppm FSK
Hafnium Hf 72 <0.001 ppm FSK
Tantalum Ta 73 1.1 ppm TXRF
Wolfram W 74 <0.001 ppm FSK
Rhenium Re 75 <2.5 ppm TXRF
Osmium Os 76 <0.001 ppm FSK
Iridium Ir 77 <2.0 ppm TXRF
Platinum Pt 78 0.47 ppm TXRF
Gold Au 79 <1.0 ppm TXRF
Mercury Hg 80 <0.03 ppm AAS
Thallium Ti 81 0.06 ppm AAS
Lead Pb 82 0.10 ppm AAS
Bismuth Bi 83 <0.10 ppm AAS
Polonium Po 84 <0.001 ppm FSK
Astat At 85 <0.001 ppm FSK
Francium Fr 87 <1.0 ppm TXRF
Radium Ra 88 <0.001 ppm FSK
Actinium Ac 89 <0.001 ppm FSK
Thorium Th 90 <0.001 ppm FSK
Protactinium Pa 91 <0.001 ppm FSK
Uranium U 92 <0.001 ppm FSK
Neptunium Np 93 <0.001 ppm FSK
Plutonium Pu 94 <0.001 ppm FSK
Additional Combined Elements
Water H2O 1.5 g/kg DIN
Ammonium NH4+ 0.010 ppm Photometrie
Nitrate NO3- 0.09 ppm Photometrie
Phosphate PO4 3- <0.10 ppm ICG
Hydrogencarbonate HCO3- <1.0 g/kg Titration
The sodium chloride content is 97.41% and meets the worldwide necessary standards for table salt.
Legend:
g/kg - Grams per kilogram
DIN - German Standards Institute
ICG - Ionchromatography
AAS - Atom absorbtion spectrometry
TXRF - Total reflection - X-Ray - Floresence-Spectometry
ppm - Parts per million
FSM - Flamespectrometry
FSK - Frequency Spectroscope


[Edited on 4-26-2015 by gdflp]

diddi - 26-4-2015 at 00:47

I had "Hilalayan Pink" cooking salt branded "funkymonkey" (linenco.com.au) analysed by someone who was interested in its homeopathic properties.

results: it contains nothing apart from NaCl and was of no therapeutic value.. and if anyone was going to be able to misinterpret results to prove quackery it would be the homeopathic industry.

so that's the end if it for me :)

Sulaiman - 26-4-2015 at 01:14

Quote: Originally posted by diddi  

results: it contains nothing apart from NaCl and was of no therapeutic value..


I doubt that there was 100% NaCl (99.99% reagents aren't cheap)
and some trace contents may be beneficial,
so the analysis was poor.
(out of cynical interest, what would he find in an analysis of homeopathic water?)

The scope of the analysis in the post by gdflp surprised me,
to my inexperienced eyes that seems like a lot of analysis/cost/time.
Could anyone say roughly how much such an analysis would cost if done commercially?

j_sum1 - 26-4-2015 at 01:22

Oh. I am under no illusion that it is anything special from a dietary or theraputic viewpoint. My question regards the particular sample I have. I am wondering if it is a fabrication and not Pakistani rock salt.

I see no problem with people using it if they can actually taste a difference or want a pink colouring on their fish or salted caramel. The supposed benefits are quite another thing and another discussion.

unionised - 26-4-2015 at 02:02

Iron oxide is very difficult to dissolve.
That's a reasonable excuse to the thiocyanate test failing to spot Fe(III).

The fact that there's something there that doesn't dissolve shows that it's not pure salt.

You might try decanting the solution off the solid washing it then trying to dissolve/ leach it with hot conc H2SO4, then neutralise that extract and test for Fe(III).

Obviously, thep resence of a little dirt in the salt will have no effect apart from making it a pretty colour

j_sum1 - 26-4-2015 at 20:02

An update.
I followed unionised'd suggestion about dissolving in water, decanting and then digesting the residue in hot H2SO4. I had 0.55g of insolubles that nearly completely dissolved in the acid. I did not neutralise completely. It tested positive with ammonium thiocyanate.

So on that basis I guess the stuff is probably genuine (meaning it came from a hole in the ground in Pakistan.) There is little reason to quibble with the notion that it is composed of NaCl in the order of 95%, mixed group one halides, calcium sulfate, a smattering of aluminosilicates and a smidge of Fe2O3 to give a pink colour.

vmelkon - 28-4-2015 at 12:51

There is an interesting amount of lithium in it. I had written down a procedure as to how to separate alkali salts but it required hard to get chemicals.

DistractionGrating - 28-4-2015 at 13:40

Quote: Originally posted by vmelkon  
I had written down a procedure as to how to separate alkali salts but it required hard to get chemicals.


I'd be interested in seeing that procedure, if you're willing to share it.

j_sum1 - 28-4-2015 at 13:50

ditto.

vmelkon - 29-4-2015 at 17:37

I found it. I guess I copied this from wikipedia.
You would need only a source of sulfate, oxalate, ethanol and ammonium carbonate and you should be able to separate Li, Na and K.
Quote:

HOW TO ISOLATE Li, Na, K, Cs, Rb
========================================
In 1860, Robert Bunsen and Gustav Kirchhoff discovered caesium in mineral water from Dürkheim, Germany. The name derived from the Latin word caesius[41][42] meaning "bluish gray", based on the bright blue lines in its emission spectrum.[43][44] Caesium was the first element to be discovered by spectroscopically, only one year after the invention of the spectroscope by Bunsen and Kirchhoff.[4]

Caesium was only present as a minor component in the mineral water. To obtain a pure sample of caesium 44,000 liters of mineral water had to be evaporated. The residue yielded 240 kilograms of concentrated salt solution. The alkaline earth metals were precipitated either as sulfates or oxalates, leaving only the alkali metal in the solution. After conversion to the nitrates and extraction with ethanol, a sodium-free mixture was obtained. From this mixture, the lithium was precipitated by ammonium carbonate. Potassium, rubidium and caesium form insoluble salts with chloroplatinic acid. These salts show a slight difference in solubility in hot water, and therefore the less-soluble caesium and rubidium hexachloroplatinate ((Cs,Rb)2PtCl6) could be obtained by fractional crystallization. After reduction of the hexachloroplatinate with hydrogen, caesium and rubidium could be separated by the difference in solubility of the carbonates in alcohol. The process yielded 9.2 grams of rubidium chloride and 7.3 grams of caesium chloride from the 44,000 liters of mineral water.[43]

The German chemist Carl Setterberg first produced caesium metal in 1882 by electrolysis of caesium chloride.[45] Setterberg received his PhD from Kekule and Bunsen for this work.[44]


[Edited on 30-4-2015 by vmelkon]

The Volatile Chemist - 30-4-2015 at 12:11

Huh. I can see it now. SM members make millions in fake Himalayan Salt racket...

j_sum1 - 30-4-2015 at 15:44

Thanks vmelkon.
As a project, total yield would be low. In the Himalayan salt, sodium content is extremely high compared with the other alkali metal salts. You would need to start with several kg to extract gram quantities of Li and K. And then you have the fun of getting your metal from your salt.
I good thing to know about however.

I think it would be an entirely different proposition if I lived near to here. I might be seriously tempted to have a crack at it.

blogfast25 - 30-4-2015 at 16:00

Himalayan salt recipe:

Take some table salt, add a bit of food dye, set up fancy website. Be very liberal claims about what it cures/prevents/boosts (then deny everything in the small print), sprinkle lavishly with terms like 'astral crystals', 'resonance vortices', 'Ancient Nepalese Medicine', 'Did you know that [insert nonsense du jour]?'... the more nonsensical, the better.

Price like an extortionist: 'Quality comes at a premium!' dontchooknow?

Offer 'Madagascan Pepper' to kick revenues a bit. Get a product endorsement from Deepak Chopra (for a small fee) to really take off.

Modest 'Kashinnnggs!' guaranteed.

[Edited on 1-5-2015 by blogfast25]

j_sum1 - 30-4-2015 at 16:50

You forgot about this one.
http://www.saltcaves.com.au/

Cringe-worthy to the point of flabergastation!

blogfast25 - 30-4-2015 at 17:08

Ok, yours beats mine. That must have cost a serious amount of food dye.

Of all the weird alti-meds here's one I founds advertised in a local alti-med shop in my town. It specialises in vaguely oriental stuff. The inexplicable lure of the East...

The 'therapy' consists in sticking slow burning incense-like candles in your ear and allowing these to burn. Not sure whether one is supposed to 'do' both ears at once or just one at a time.

I kid you not.

[Edited on 1-5-2015 by blogfast25]

j_sum1 - 30-4-2015 at 17:22

Yep. I have heard of that one too. Moxy...something. It is popular in obstetrics for pain relief during childbirth. Pure quackery of course but if it is endorsed by hospitals and childbirth facilities it carries an impression of legitimacy. Ugh! Methinks the placebo effect is especially powerful if it is accompanied with the distraction of molten candle wax dripping in your orifices.

As for the salt caves... Their definition of a negative ion leaves a lot to be desired. http://www.saltcaves.com.au/FAQRetrieve.aspx?ID=39008

blogfast25 - 1-5-2015 at 10:04

Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  
As for the salt caves... Their definition of a negative ion leaves a lot to be desired. http://www.saltcaves.com.au/FAQRetrieve.aspx?ID=39008


"I know what I believe, please don't confuse me with the FACTS!"

vmelkon - 1-5-2015 at 10:58

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
The 'therapy' consists in sticking slow burning incense-like candles in your ear and allowing these to burn. Not sure whether one is supposed to 'do' both ears at once or just one at a time.

I kid you not.

[Edited on 1-5-2015 by blogfast25]


I remember seeing that on TV a long time ago. I think it was around 1995.
They do one ear at a time. The candle stick is kept at vertical. They said it sucks the ear wax out through vacuum (what vacuum?) and it goes into the hollow candle stick. Weird and ridiculuous. No matter what junk people sell or what junk story is made up, someone somewhere will believe it.

You can watch Richard Dawkin's video on Irrational health. It is on youtube. Fun stuff.

DraconicAcid - 1-5-2015 at 12:03

Oh, yes, ear-candling. Ridiculous woo.

blogfast25 - 1-5-2015 at 12:42

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
Oh, yes, ear-candling. Ridiculous woo.


Don't knock it till you've tried it: the only thing it can't remedy is ear wax.

DraconicAcid - 1-5-2015 at 12:49

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  

Don't knock it till you've tried it: the only thing it can't remedy is ear wax.


If that's your attitude, then I recommend a new treatment I've heard about- you get your masseuse to rub you vigorously all over with a cheese grater, than then you bathe in a saturated solution of Himalayan salt and apple cider vinegar for an hour. It clears up everything!

And don't knock it until you've tried it.

blogfast25 - 1-5-2015 at 13:53

Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
I recommend a new treatment I've heard about- you get your masseuse to rub you vigorously all over with a cheese grater, than then you bathe in a saturated solution of Himalayan salt and apple cider vinegar for an hour. It clears up everything!



That is clearly a bogus 'therapy' you've just made up! Impostor.

Ear candle therapy has been around for thousands of years. Don't settle for anything less!

[Edited on 1-5-2015 by blogfast25]

unionised - 2-5-2015 at 05:24

Just say "no".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear_candling#Safety_and_effecti...

DraconicAcid - 2-5-2015 at 06:42

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  

Ear candle therapy has been around for thousands of years. Don't settle for anything less!

So has trepanation. Go try it!