Sciencemadness Discussion Board

day use bottle for con HCl

Magpie - 11-3-2015 at 15:25

I like to keep a 250 mL bottle of con HCl in my lab for "day use." I have found that escaping HCl gas can quickly rust any carbon steel tools that necessarily cohabit the lab.

My day use bottle is a Qorpak, wide mouth, 250 mL screw cap bottle with ptfe liner. I suspect that it may slightly leak. I'm wondering if the following bottle, available from VWR in the US, would be an improvement:

DURAN® Laboratory Bottle, with Cap and Pouring Ring 250 mL Blue 45 Clear 5539-85 10098-778 Case of 10 $107.23

What is your experience/recommendation?

Zombie - 11-3-2015 at 15:32

I am interested in learning this as well.

I store all acids outside in a shed, and I'm dreading having to store small amounts indoors.
We've discussed desiccants/ absorbents but if you can head the bear off at the pass, and not have any vapor leaks, all the better

Loptr - 11-3-2015 at 15:50

I have been looking for something to contain HCl as well. I have an acid/flammibles cabinet, and a hardware store bought metal container is starting to rust.

[Edited on 11-3-2015 by Loptr]

[Edited on 11-3-2015 by Loptr]

j_sum1 - 11-3-2015 at 16:14

My lab is my tool shed. My tools are oxidising. There really isn't much I can do about it. My work bench is right under where the tools are stored and any acidic vapours hit them whenever I work.

I do keep a couple of small bottles of HCl for use. One is a glass reagent bottle with ground glass stopper that I use for 33%HCl. The other is a screw-top bottle for dilute (Ok, about 10% so not that dilute.). Both around 200mL. It is a practical arrangement. I don't know that vapours escaping the bottles are my main problem.

gdflp - 11-3-2015 at 16:33

I actually have found that the bottle my acid came in (I bought it from Duda Diesel) holds conc. HCl. I have had the bottle for around a year and all of my glassware as well as spatulas and tongs. None of them had rusted at all until recently, although I think that was from the fuming nitric acid I recently distilled, which melted it's cap and I assume leaked vapors of NOx.

Zombie - 11-3-2015 at 16:37

I have the problem with sealed gallon jugs. There is a plastic film across the top, and a screw on cap.

I can't imagine storing it indoors.

I hope I am not side tracking your thread Magpie, but are any of you using Fume Hoods while experimenting is is this strictly a storage issue?

battoussai114 - 11-3-2015 at 17:47

Never used these Duran bottles...But may I suggest you try adding some PTFE tape to the screw so it's better sealed before spending on these bottles?
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
I hope I am not side tracking your thread Magpie, but are any of you using Fume Hoods while experimenting is is this strictly a storage issue?


Nope, closest thing I use is a fan pointing to the window.
Someday I'll build one... Until then I just do any experimentation with volatile stuff outside -specially after the fateful day I thought just handling a little acetic acid to add it to test tubes wouldn't make my bathroom smell like salad for a long time-

Magpie - 11-3-2015 at 18:18

Quote: Originally posted by battoussai114  
But may I suggest you try adding some PTFE tape to the screw so it's better sealed before spending on these bottles?


For the ptfe lined screw cap the seal is made at the bottle rim by compression with the ptfe liner.

Using tape on the threads might be effective but it likely would have to be retaped after every use.

I will digress abit to describe a second problem that I also suspect is due to HCl vapor: I have my dry chemicals stored in a wooden, unvented, closet having 4 shelves. This closet has 2 doors and each door has two ss spring type hinges. The hinges are completely internal to the closed cabinet. The upper hinge on the left door rusts to the point I have replaced it twice now in 10 years. I have no HCl per se in the cabinet. I'm guessing that the HCl may be coming from my AlCl3 stored in that vicinity. So, I now have placed the bottle in a secondary bottle and then placed this in a plastic zip-loc bag...we'll see if this helps. Incidentally, my day-use HCl bottle sits on top of the cabinet in a rubber tub... above the hinge. I'm assuming it is not contributing to the hinge rusting.

I dissolved some of the rust in con HNO3 then tested it with AgNO3. Cl- was present.

[Edited on 12-3-2015 by Magpie]

[Edited on 12-3-2015 by Magpie]

Texium - 11-3-2015 at 19:15

Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I'm wondering if the following bottle, available from VWR in the US, would be an improvement:

DURAN® Laboratory Bottle, with Cap and Pouring Ring 250 mL Blue 45 Clear 5539-85 10098-778 Case of 10 $107.23

What is your experience/recommendation?
I use one almost exactly like that for this very purpose and it has worked wonderfully so far. I tested it out by placing some iron nails around it and letting it sit there for about a week (I did the same with another, less good bottle that I knew would leak, as a control). By the end of the week, the nails next to the poorly sealed bottle were completely oxidized, while the ones next to the DURAN bottle were still shiny and spotless. The pouring ring is helpful too, as it prevents the acid from running down the side of the bottle and getting all over your fingers and lab bench.

Zombie - 11-3-2015 at 19:26

I would be interested in 10 of these bottles myself in a 500Ml size. Maybe someone would like to split a case.

For the money they are less expensive that just the caps alone.

woelen - 12-3-2015 at 00:14

Conc. HCl (30+%) only keeps without fumes in a bottle with GL45 cap, which has a PTFE liner. But even with those, some fumes may escape.

Storing acids inside can be done under certain conditions:

H2SO4: Can be kept inside, does not fume at all. Even the concentrated 96% acid does not fume at all.
HNO3: Can be kept inside as long as the acid is not more concentrated than appr. 50%. I would take some acid, and dilute it somewhat with distilled water.
HCl: The worst one, but if you bring down the concentration to 20%, then it hardly fumes anymore. I keep 20% acid around comfortably.
HBr: Can be kept inside as long as you keep the concentration below appr. 40%.
HClO4: Can be kept inside, does not fume at all. Even the conc. 70% acid does not fume at all.
CH3COOH: Can be kept inside. Can be smelly, but the vapor is non-toxic and does not corrode.
H3PO4: Can be kept inside in any concentration, does not fume at all.

Conc. HNO3 (60+ %) and conc. HCl (30+ %) should NOT be stored inside, regardless of the container, if you value your metal tools, metal tubing and nearby electronic devices.

[Edited on 12-3-15 by woelen]

Dr.Bob - 12-3-2015 at 05:24

I have used the Media/Duran bottles like that a lot. They are no better for sealing, at least with the blue caps, and we use those mainly for aqueous solutions and gentler organics like alcohols. The better caps for the Media bottles that have a PTFE type liner are much better, but I think the Quarpak bottles seal better, and more vendors ship hazardous chemicals in Quarpak than any other bottle I have seen. I know that Acros ships some solvents in the Duran type bottles but with the own septa cap lids (I have a few if people want to try them out).

But if anyone wants Duran bottles in 250 ml, I have a new box of 10 that I found recently, with blue caps. If people want some, I will sell them for $8 ea, and throw in a white PTFE lined cap in addition, so you will have two caps to try. Limited time offer, I only have 10 in the box, Magpie gets first dibs on some or all (I'll do the entire box for $75).

DJF90 - 12-3-2015 at 05:37

Pernaps not quite relevant here but Alfa Aesar sends their PCl5 in an amber glass reagent bottle (unbranded) but with a red Duran cap (PTFE lined). I managed to score a couple of lids at my old job once the reagent was all used up!

careysub - 12-3-2015 at 07:13

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
I would be interested in 10 of these bottles myself in a 500Ml size. Maybe someone would like to split a case.

For the money they are less expensive that just the caps alone.


Put'em on the Google Sheet order list.

Zombie - 12-3-2015 at 07:51

Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
Conc. HCl (30+%) only keeps without fumes in a bottle with GL45 cap, which has a PTFE liner. But even with those, some fumes may escape.

Storing acids inside can be done under certain conditions:

H2SO4: Can be kept inside, does not fume at all. Even the concentrated 96% acid does not fume at all.
HNO3: Can be kept inside as long as the acid is not more concentrated than appr. 50%. I would take some acid, and dilute it somewhat with distilled water.
HCl: The worst one, but if you bring down the concentration to 20%, then it hardly fumes anymore. I keep 20% acid around comfortably.
HBr: Can be kept inside as long as you keep the concentration below appr. 40%.
HClO4: Can be kept inside, does not fume at all. Even the conc. 70% acid does not fume at all.
CH3COOH: Can be kept inside. Can be smelly, but the vapor is non-toxic and does not corrode.
H3PO4: Can be kept inside in any concentration, does not fume at all.

Conc. HNO3 (60+ %) and conc. HCl (30+ %) should NOT be stored inside, regardless of the container, if you value your metal tools, metal tubing and nearby electronic devices.

[Edited on 12-3-15 by woelen]



Thank you for this info. I will be working with the lessor concentrations, storing in a sealed cabinet, and using an absorbent / desiccant in this cabinet.
This info will let me sleep now.


Quote: Originally posted by careysub  
Quote: Originally posted by Zombie  
I would be interested in 10 of these bottles myself in a 500Ml size. Maybe someone would like to split a case.

For the money they are less expensive that just the caps alone.


Put'em on the Google Sheet order list.



Will do this tonight. There are several types I need.

I'm gonna see what else Dr. Bob has first...

Magpie - 12-3-2015 at 12:44

I have to backtrack some on what I said about my day use bottle for con HCl. I'm actually using a 120 ml wide mouth bottle with a white cap. I can't say it is Qorpak as the Qorpak bottles I buy have green caps. But the white cap does appear to have a ptfe liner.

I plan to set up a test (like that of zts16) that would compare a narrow mouth Qorpak 120 ml bottle with ptfe liner against a Duran narrow mouth with ptfe liner.

FYI: I buy the 120ml narrow mouth and wide mouth Qorpak bottles directly from Qorpak. They are amber glass, vacuum & ionized cleaned, have green Thermoset F217 caps with ptfe liners, and come 24 to a case. By the case they are $1.53 and $1.84 ea, respectively.

ptfe has remarkable chemical resistance. But it does tend to take a set under compressive load. So it is not perfect - but it's close.

[Edited on 12-3-2015 by Magpie]

[Edited on 12-3-2015 by Magpie]

morganbw - 12-3-2015 at 12:50

Zom sir,
What I need is something that ( measures the small < than 1 ml )
1 ml pipettes with .01 markings / pipette bulbs / graduated cylinders / etc.... / you get the drift, go small to characterize then you can measure the steps.

morganbw - 12-3-2015 at 12:55

effing eff, I posted in the wrong thread.
Pretty sure Zom will see it anyway.

Zombie - 12-3-2015 at 13:27

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw  
Zom sir,
What I need is something that ( measures the small < than 1 ml )
1 ml pipettes with .01 markings / pipette bulbs / graduated cylinders / etc.... / you get the drift, go small to characterize then you can measure the steps.



Add them up to the list.

The companies I have accounts with are really no issue as I have been adding accounts almost daily, and can readily deal with any of them.

If their is a stumble in the process I will post it immediately, and find an alternate vendor.

mr.crow - 12-3-2015 at 15:31

I stored conc HCl in regular boston round bottles with polycone caps. Watch out for crappy paper liners. The trick is to keep the bottles in an airtight box with an open container of NaOH. This will absorb all moisture and acid fumes!

Pyrex media bottles are wonderful. The amber colored ones seem to be expensive and hard to find. I managed to get some new red caps for $5 each and clear PFA ones for $20 or something absurd.

j_sum1 - 12-3-2015 at 16:20

One thing that can be done is to store bottles of HCl in a zip sealed plastic bag. You can have a paper or cloth bag containing NaCO3 or NaOH. Put that in the zip-sealed bag with your bottle of acid. Then you have something that absorbs any vapours that escape. You also get a bit of a visual cue as to how much your acid is escaping: judging by the degradation of your bag of carbonate/ hydroxide.

Of course this doesn't help me in my particular situation because my problem is acid vapours while I am using the acids. However, it is a simple cheap option that might be useful for some people.

Dr.Bob - 12-3-2015 at 17:39

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw  
Zom sir,
What I need is something that ( measures the small < than 1 ml )
1 ml pipettes with .01 markings / pipette bulbs / graduated cylinders / etc.... / you get the drift, go small to characterize then you can measure the steps.


I have about 100 1 ml glass serological pipettes, they are loose and not in a sealed sterile bag, thus not good for biology, but they are new, clean, ideal for analytical work and I'll sell them cheap. I have a small number of 5 and 10 ml glass serological pipettes as well, I would just give them away one or two per person if anyone asks as part of another order. They are hard to ship by themselves, they break easily. I likely have more scattered around, plus some random volumetric ones, but I sold the bulk of them in one lot a few years back, just keep finding random ones around.

I don't have pipette bulbs for them, but that may something to (bulk) order from SEOH or elsewhere cheap. I also have lots of smaller grad cyl, around 50 and 10 ml, maybe mor 25 ml, and some down to below 10ml, but they are all mixed up. I think there is a 5ml, maybe a 2 ml. I also have some manual pipettors that I posted photos of before, I have many more varieties for all uses and budgets. I have 10, 100, 200, 1000 microliters plus more. Some are on the list, but I have a bunch of random ones also.

SimpleChemist-238 - 13-3-2015 at 10:10

I can't stand the rusting of steel in my lab! I keep my HCl in the original jug.

morganbw - 13-3-2015 at 15:45

Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob  
Quote: Originally posted by morganbw  
Zom sir,
What I need is something that ( measures the small < than 1 ml )
1 ml pipettes with .01 markings / pipette bulbs / graduated cylinders / etc.... / you get the drift, go small to characterize then you can measure the steps.


I have about 100 1 ml glass serological pipettes, they are loose and not in a sealed sterile bag, thus not good for biology, but they are new, clean, ideal for analytical work and I'll sell them cheap. I have a small number of 5 and 10 ml glass serological pipettes as well, I would just give them away one or two per person if anyone asks as part of another order. They are hard to ship by themselves, they break easily. I likely have more scattered around, plus some random volumetric ones, but I sold the bulk of them in one lot a few years back, just keep finding random ones around.

I don't have pipette bulbs for them, but that may something to (bulk) order from SEOH or elsewhere cheap. I also have lots of smaller grad cyl, around 50 and 10 ml, maybe mor 25 ml, and some down to below 10ml, but they are all mixed up. I think there is a 5ml, maybe a 2 ml. I also have some manual pipettors that I posted photos of before, I have many more varieties for all uses and budgets. I have 10, 100, 200, 1000 microliters plus more. Some are on the list, but I have a bunch of random ones also.


I work tomorrow but will look into this much more on Sunday. It seems you have what I need. Thank you