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perchlorate cell

RAA - 8-3-2015 at 19:28

I want to make a chlorate-perchlorate cell.
I have a MOT from a 1400W oven, is it too powerful?
It doesn't say how many turns in the primary, so how do i know how many to put into the secondary? (240, 50Hz is all thats printed.)
Lastly, can i use a lead car batter for PbO2 electrodes?

[Edited on 9-3-2015 by RAA]

Molecular Manipulations - 8-3-2015 at 19:48

This is what Polverone said 10 years ago:

Quote:

We already have approximately 234023412 posts here about KClO4. Yours would not make it in to the top 234023400

I wonder what he'd say now...
1 400 Watts might be OK for 20 liters of electrolyte, are you trying to short out your house?
No you can't use that plugged into the wall! Of course it's way to powerful. But really an MOT doesn't decide how much power you put into it. That depends on how much power you put into it!
Transformers only work with AC, and electrolysis needs DC, so this is useless from the jump. Also it will probably have too high a voltage even when run backwards, you shouldn't go over 5 volts for chlorate and 12 volts for perchlorate.
Lead dioxide from batteries is shit quality and won't work well. We have a HUGE thread here on this subject.

hissingnoise - 9-3-2015 at 03:26

Quote:

1 400 Watts might be OK for 20 liters of electrolyte, are you trying to short out your house?
No you can't use that plugged into the wall! Of course it's way to powerful. But really an MOT doesn't decide how much power you put into it. That depends on how much power you put into it!

You sound hopelessly confused, MM . . .

The output wattage of a transformer is wholly dependent on the wire thickness and number of turns in the secondary winding!

IrC - 9-3-2015 at 05:58

Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise

You sound hopelessly confused, MM . . .

The output wattage of a transformer is wholly dependent on the wire thickness and number of turns in the secondary winding!

'wholly dependent '? You mean the mass and type of core material, magnetic saturation, the wire thickness and number of turns in the primary winding do not enter into the wattage equation?

Of course my question implies consideration of operation over more than a short time interval.

I must conclude (and agree with other members) from the very question the OP asked at least two things. One, so little understanding of HVAC they are dealing with potential disaster toying with MOT's and second, (as is so typical lately) no one searches (or researches) for 5 seconds before posting questions covered so many times before.

hissingnoise - 9-3-2015 at 07:37

Quote:

You mean the mass and type of core material, magnetic saturation, the wire thickness and number of turns in the primary winding do not enter into the wattage equation?

My meaning is wholly dependent on whether you're a semanticist, or not . . . ?

Molecular Manipulations - 9-3-2015 at 08:28

Any transformer won't put out 1 400 watts unless you put at leat that much into it. I didn't want to burden him with any more information, because this entire topic is completely ridiculous.
You also seem quite confused. The current and voltage depend on the wire turns. The wattage going into a 100% efficient transformer is the same as the wattage coming out. Wattage = total energy, amperage = current. Amps x volts = watts.

[Edited on 9-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

hissingnoise - 9-3-2015 at 09:20

Quote: Originally posted by RAA

I want to make a chlorate-perchlorate cell.

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-High-current-Microwav...

IrC - 9-3-2015 at 11:13

Hissing, good link. MM, I think when a thing is poorly explained to someone not knowledgeable, it adds unnecessary confusion to their down the road understanding as they learn. You are talking about turns ratio. The actual wattage is going to be determined by the load placed on the secondary and the phase angles involved. Assuming the OP is smart enough to follow the link given and rewind the secondary for a more reasonable output voltage. Wire gauges in effect determine whether or not the transformer survives the load for any significant interval, not forgetting to also consider the wire gauge related resistance which would limit (as would core mass and composition) the ability to provide the power the load is demanding. You are right the thread is idiotic by design, a MOT is designed to put out around 2,000 volts at up to a KW or greater while all the OP needs is relatively low voltage DC at a few amperes as was mentioned already. Hissing at least was trying to get the person to rewind the MOT to provide a much more reasonable component for the intended electrochemical cell.

I think a better way to go (and much has been written on this by woelen and others) is to modify a computer switching supply. Far safer than toying with MOT's in the hands of the unlearned.

Molecular Manipulations - 9-3-2015 at 15:19

Quote: Originally posted by IrC

I think when a thing is poorly explained to someone not knowledgeable, it adds unnecessary confusion to their down the road understanding as they learn.

True that. Really an MOT is just not worth for chlorate/perchlorate production. Even if you managed to rewind the secondary with the appropriate amount of coils to have 4-12 volts, you'd then need to convert it to DC. It's best to just buy a PSU. Here's a good one for chlorate: 5 volts, 60 A.http://www.circuitspecialists.com/hf300w-s-5.html
Here's a good one for perchlorate: 9 volts, 60 amps.http://www.circuitspecialists.com/hf300w-s-9.html
MMO anode can be bought many places, including from a member here.

markx - 9-3-2015 at 15:53

Forget about messing around with a MOT core powered supply for an electrosynthesis application. It's the 21st century and there are dedicated dirt cheap and effective solutions for this kind of practice freely available...just take advatage of the chance:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC110-220V-TO-DC-5V-70A-Regulated-Tr...

MOT 's are by design unsuitable for sustained long term application in an electrolysis/synthesis circuit. They display a profoundly low efficiency and high losses with the accompanied need for efficient forced cooling in any long term application like elecrosynthesis. The primary windings on the core are just too few to enable a reasonably efficient operation with just one core even when it is equipped with an appropriately wound DIY secondary. The average power that goes into heating the core and windings of a rewound MOT with unpowered (open) secondary circuit is still about 120W. It means that the MOT transformer will draw 120W from the grid witout a load connected to the secondary circuit and dissipating that heat in a long term run is a serious problem. If one is anal enough then a more or less acceptable performance can be achieved by connecting the primaries of 2 MOTs in series and winding a common center tap secondary across both cores with each shoulder on one core....still I see no justification for that kind of masochism if the goal is to have a working electrosynthesis cell and not the base study of electromagnetic principles.

morganbw - 9-3-2015 at 16:36

Quote: Originally posted by RAA

I want to make a chlorate-perchlorate cell.
I have a MOT from a 1400W oven, is it too powerful?
It doesn't say how many turns in the primary, so how do i know how many to put into the secondary? (240, 50Hz is all thats printed.)
Lastly, can i use a lead car batter for PbO2 electrodes?

[Edited on 9-3-2015 by RAA]

All that has been discussed has been power supply.
Anodes for perchlorate, will be the difficult part.
I made pounds of chlorate using just lead anodes and cathodes, probably 30 years ago with just and old 20 amp battery charger.

Volts started low/ended high. Amps started high/ended low.

markx - 9-3-2015 at 16:55

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw

Quote: Originally posted by RAA

Fascinating! Just a lead anode for chlorate production? Did it not passivate due to fomation of a lead chloride layer on the metal surface? Or did you previously form a layer of lead dioxide on the surface of the anode (e.g. applying anodic potentials in sulfuric acid)?

Molecular Manipulations - 9-3-2015 at 17:16

No it doesn't passivate. I've tried this bare lead anode thing a few times. Lead chloride is soluble in hot water, and even slightly soluble in cold.
I'm not sure the exact mechanism it exploits to allow it to work, but it works a little.
The anode definitely degrades, more so in high chloride solutions, but always to a certain extent. Your product will be contaminated with lead ions for sure.
If you can't afford anything better it's worth a shot, but it not good at all.
Use MMO for chlorate and Pt for perchlorate.

violet sin - 9-3-2015 at 18:36

so is it just me that notices some of these type ( redundant post) threads start off being told: "we have a hundred plus just like this, it should be moved or just plain asked there".... and then the thread is descended on and beat into the ground again, any way, with numerous posts there after? has happened several times in the last couple months. are we really so bored that we will drop answers and links from other appropriate threads instead of just moving the thing to those threads? and quarrel over slight nuances of already over-hashed ideas?

points that could all be part of other threads:

bromide to bromine (5 pages now)- 10-2-2015
how old are you( pretty much just broken and redundant) 8-2-2015
whats going on here? graphene hoax? 27-2-2015
elements with interesting properties ( similar enough thread, should be merged most boring element) 1-3-2015
Best Vacuum source for dstillation assembly - 4-3-2015
Recommendations for a vacuum pump? - 21-1-2015

just trying to be a voice of reason here.
-Violet Sin-
yaaay 500th post

[Edited on 10-3-2015 by violet sin]