Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Some thoughts on Nano tubes, and epoxides

Some thoughts on Nano tubes, and epoxides

Zombie - 6-3-2015 at 08:21

I'm copy, pasting this post from the free stuff thread...

I think it may be worth further discussion, as it directly applies to a "pet project".

Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket

I've been playing around with nanotubes suspended in oil and in toluene. Placing a strong magnet near the vial demonstrates how they are attracted, cool effect similar to iron filings but much milder, makes a neat demo

Now this post just lit a brain cell...

I wonder if you could induce a strong enough magnetic field to an un cured epoxide containing these type of products (nano tubes).
At the right ratios, and dimensions I am assuming that the end result could be much the same as a woven fabric in creating strength in the cured epoxide.

What I am working on is a hydrofoil based sport boat.
Sort of a cross between a sailboard, and an International Moth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SN1gSkqvy0

My MAIN focus is on creating a lighter / tougher compound for building the hulls.

Carbon fiber is the apparent top choice but I would like to do MUCH better, and not break the bank doing it.

The statement that Nano tubes can be magnetically arranged is what I would like to understand more about.

What kind of affinity are we talking about here? Is anyone familiar with the properties of these products?

I'm here to learn many different things, and one of them is molecular engineering. I would like to reformat, and epoxide, and get a similar if not superior strength to a fabric lamination.

Any of this make sense?

Molecular Manipulations - 6-3-2015 at 09:08

Physicists have shown that carbon nanotubes can become magnetized when they are placed in contact with a magnetic material. Michael Coey of Trinity College in Dublin and colleagues believe the mechanism relies on the transfer of spin – carried by electrons – from the magnetic substrate to the nanotube. -Céspedes et al. 2004 J. Phys.: CM 16 L155.
However it's a very weak magnetic field. So weak in fact that for quite a while physicists thought that it's magnetic properties where actually just from iron impurities

Quote:

Originally posted here
It is widely believed that graphite and other forms of carbon can have ferromagnetic properties, but the effects are so weak that physicists are not sure if the magnetism is due to tiny amounts of iron-rich impurities, or if it is an intrinsic property of the carbon. In 2002 Coey’s group measured the magnetic properties of a meteorite sample and found that only two-thirds of the magnetization could be accounted for by magnetic minerals present in the sample. The rest, they argued, must come from the carbon. In particular, they proposed that ferromagnetic nanocrystals in the sample induced a magnetic moment in the carbon via proximity effects.

See this also, anyone have access to the full article?

Quote:

Originally posted here
Carbon nanotubes (CNTs) encapsulating Fe nanowires were prepared by the chemical vapor deposition (CVD) method using ferrocene as a precursor. The influence of the addition of Pt to an Fe catalyst, which is required for growing CNTs by CVD, on the magnetic properties of the resulting CNTs was examined from the viewpoint of enhancing coercivity. Our results showed that the addition of a Pt layer on the Fe catalyst deposited on a substrate increased the coercivity of the Fe-filled CNT. This increase is due to changes in the easy magnetization axis of the Fe nanowires in the CNTs. This result indicates that the magnetic properties of the Fe-filled CNTs can be tuned by the controlling the growth conditions, which is suitable for applications in areas such as magnetic recording media and medicine.

We all know how much you like graphs Zombie, so here's some visual chemist porn for your mental masturbation pleasure:

Attachment: 1742-6596_200_7_072061.pdf (473kB)
This file has been downloaded 392 times

[Edited on 6-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

Zombie - 6-3-2015 at 09:43

Hmmmmmm.

So the impression I get is this... Nano tubes are not normally magnetically active but depending on the manufacturing process they can be.

Staying away from magnetic energy for a moment, what about electrically charging a solution containing nano tubes? I think thin film/ vacuum technology applies here.

Does this sound like a valid path to pursue?

Molecular Manipulations - 6-3-2015 at 09:49

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie

what about electrically charging a solution containing nano tubes? I think thin film/ vacuum technology applies here.

How would you go about preparing an ionic nano tube solution? Carbon in any form is made of purely covalent bonds, which wont dissolve in anything that conducts electricity well, and certainly wont ionize themselves even if they did dissolve.
You might be able to ionize them with a high voltage ark, but I bet that would just destroy them.
I don't really see how magnetized nano tubes would be stronger or better than regular ones. What's the difference?
I mean, besides the bloody obvious like affinity to black holes, ability to create a perfect vacuum and of course properties that can increase the yields of whiskey distillation without putting in extra energy

[Edited on 6-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

Zombie - 6-3-2015 at 11:13

Y U gotta bust my stones...

My train of thought is to align some sort of solid inside an epoxy. Something to create a predictable "grain".

Imagine a piece of cured carbon fiber 12" x 12" x 1/4".
It has a set weight, tensile strength, and toughness.

The epoxy applied has very little to do with this. My "pet" is to toughen the epoxy, and make that much more structurally important. The goal is reducing the 1/4" thickness, and equaling or bettering the original qualities.

If that takes re engineering the known universe... So be it. I have time.

WGTR - 6-3-2015 at 15:38

Note the mechanical properties of this material once it is run through a press:

Scalable Holey Graphene Synthesis and Dense Electrode Fabrication toward High-Performance Ultracapacitors
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn502635y

Zombie - 6-3-2015 at 16:47

WGTR!!!!! You're a flipping genius!

Quote:
"Composite Materials

Graphene is strong, stiff and very light. Currently, aerospace engineers are incorporating carbon fibre into the production of aircraft as it is also very strong and light. However, graphene is much stronger whilst being also much lighter. Ultimately it is expected that graphene is utilized (probably integrated into plastics such as epoxy) to create a material that can replace steel in the structure of aircraft, improving fuel efficiency, range and reducing weight. Due to its electrical conductivity, it could even be used to coat aircraft surface material to prevent electrical damage resulting from lightning strikes. In this example, the same graphene coating could also be used to measure strain rate, notifying the pilot of any changes in the stress levels that the aircraft wings are under. These characteristics can also help in the development of high strength requirement applications such as body armour for military personnel and vehicles.

http://www.graphenea.com/pages/graphene-uses-applications

Now I have to look into how to manufacture this...

It's exactly what I had in mind!

Zombie - 6-3-2015 at 16:50

Look at what I just noticed... 5 posts to change the way things are done.

This site ROCKS!

careysub - 6-3-2015 at 17:44

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie

Y U gotta bust my stones...

Something along these lines:
http://nano-org.com/files/fullerene-modified_epoxy_matrix.pd...
?

Almost all the stiffness and strength in a CF composite specimen is due to the CF fiber, which is natural since it exceeds the strenght and stiffness of all but a few materials known to humankind. The biggest gains in stiffness and strength are found in reducing the resin content to the lowest practical level.

But there is a reason we don't see a lot of pure carbon fiber objects*. They lack toughness and shatter easily. The weak, flexible resin contributes greatly to the engineering value of the composite. The paper I linked to above used fullerenes to improve the fiber/resin bonding which enhances toughness.

*Carbon-carbon fiber composites do exist - they are strong, stand extreme temperatures, but are brittle. The C-CF leading edges of the Space Shuttle wings shattered when hit by a piece of low density foam.

Zombie - 6-3-2015 at 18:51

I have been experimenting with similar ideas.

That's where the nano tubes caught my eye.
All of the CF work I do is vacuum bagged to remove every drop of excess epoxy, and air. I have been working mainly with adding different percentages of Cavisil, powdered glass, wood flour, graphite, powdered carbon ect. While they all show varied improvements, nothing stands out.

This is why I an looking for an oriented strand type of material. Carbon fiber will be the "backbone" but my desire is to use 1/3rd as much weight per area of CF, and increase the strength of the resin.

That is where the idea of a magnetically charged particle came from. Something I could add to the resin, and either introduce to a magnetic field or an electrical current while curing to create a linear bond in the resin.

Graphene sheet is promising but a little out of reach ATM.

I was just reading about Graphene Oxide, and a HCL / AL reaction to convert it back to Graphene. This may be an option.

I am attempting to venture into a Large scale production facility within five years. Creating a process, and tooling is not out of the question.
In my particular application toughness is secondary to strength so they can scale up on a parallel model, and I would be perfectly happy with that.

I firmly believe the one big advantage I have is free thinking. I have little knowledge of why something can not be done so I look at every aspect differently, until I figure out how it can be done.
After all, I am only talking about a boat here.

This is an example model...

careysub - 6-3-2015 at 22:25

I do carbon fiber composites myself. Mostly building telescopes. I've taken up a good bit of interest in the subject of composites. material science, and am always looking at new techniques and technologies.

(An interesting recent advance, being able to cast finished optical surfaces into light weight carbon fiber telescope mirrors, eliminating the need to grind and polish them: http://www.compositemirrors.com/pub/spie/ULTRAOptics.pdf)

Zombie - 7-3-2015 at 08:16

That is some pretty darn cool stuff.

I have been working with plugs, molds, plate glass releasing for 40 some years. I never would have thought to mold a parabolic dish for a mirror, but under the right conditions, I can easily understand the benefits.

Making super complex shapes is where I shine. A few years back I built a 38 piece mold of a 6 foot high by 14 foot long by 2 foot deep, breaking wave for a company in Canada.

I'm basically done with all the hard work these days... I'm just trying to brainstorm a major change in Ultra light sport boat construction, and designs...

With the correct sail design, and a light enough hydrofoil you can Easily double the wind speed in water craft speed. I'm looking to triple the wind speed, at LEAST!

Lighter boats, thinner foils, and stronger / thinner struts are all that is needed. I have the sails down pat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_faster_than_the_wind

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingsail

[Edited on 3-7-2015 by Zombie]

Zombie - 10-3-2015 at 09:34

In the
Free Stuff" thread a company posted an offer for free samples...
"You can also ask for free samples on this website: http://www.samaterials.com/ "

I contacted them last evening, and received a reply today. They carry Graphene. Several different formats. Several of which apply to the train of thought in this thread.

I returned the email inquiring into bulk prices, and I will let you all know how this proceeds.

On a PS note... They verified the AL / HCl process of forming the molecular bond to create "sheet Graphene".

Again... You guys Rock!

[Edited on 3-10-2015 by Zombie]

morganbw - 11-3-2015 at 15:24

Zom, sir, please do not orgasm yet.
Small steps, always small steps.

[Edited on 11-3-2015 by morganbw]

Zombie - 11-3-2015 at 16:00

You noticed... I'm OCD to the bone.

I have had several back, and forth emails w/ SAM's.

One of their chemists verified the process, and the particular epoxy composition I am working with.
They also deal in bulk volume.

In my reading this product can not be bent or contoured once it is formed so I am following a train of thought here...

Mold the product (boat, apple, whatever), and begin the Graphene Oxide sheeting process on the formed product.

This will require two forms of tooling to be developed.
One is a form of Al that can be applied over a coating of Graphene oxide, and the second is an HCl bath to create the Graphene sheet.

I have a small scale lab set up for testing toughness, and strength. If this material is cost effective or close to, I will keep pursuing this idea, and post up side by side comparisons with some of the work I have done to date, and the results from this.