Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Taste of different acids?

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bolbol - 3-3-2015 at 19:20

This may seem like a crazy idea but I dont see a why not in it :D. I am interested to try out very very very very dilute solutions of different acids(the non poisonous kind) without actually swallowing it. I know HCl, citric acid, phosphoric acid, occur in foods or beverages that we drink at very low concentrations obviously.
I would like to try them each separately and see if there is any difference in taste since all acids are described to have a "sour, sharp" taste to them. Before I do that I would like to how much do you guys think I should dilute a solution with to be able to notice an actual taste without posing any harm?

I'd like to try HCl for starters and then Phosphoric acid. I heard HNO3 is toxic so Ill have to read more about it before I attempt anything.

Molecular Manipulations - 3-3-2015 at 19:50

I've tasted almost all my inorganic acids (and of course vinegar besides) including nitric, sulfuric, hydrochloric, phosphoric, hydrobromic, hydroiodic and several others.
They all have different tastes although all the halide acids taste very similar. I would consider nitric non-toxic, especially if only a drop and then rinsed and spit out.
I diluted a mL with 50 mLs of water where each concentration for the above acids where originally 68%, 98%, 37%, 85%, >30% and >40% respectively IIRC.
Some acids I would not taste are, hydrofluoric acid, hexavalent chromic acid :o, nickel acids and acidic salts thereof, cobalt acids and acidic salts, most other organic acids and many, many more.
[EDIT] Oh and I can't forget the common ones I do taste, or at least injest: ascorbic acid (vitamin C), acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin), citric acid and nasty butyric acid- not in pure form or on purposes but rather rancid butter.
BTW, as Jesus said "you're not a real man unless you drink fluoroantimonic acid with your coffee every morning." Well at least I say that...


[Edited on 4-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

BobD1001 - 3-3-2015 at 19:54

Having had an accidental whiff of HF, I can tell you it smells much like an off vinegar but with much more sting to the nostrils and back of the throat. I'm assuming it may taste as such also, just not wanting to be part of that experiment!

bolbol - 3-3-2015 at 21:41

Anyone tasted Perchloric acid? lol

Molecular Manipulations - 3-3-2015 at 21:51

Hmm, I don't think so. I'm guessing it will be much less corrosive than sulfuric or nitric acid. Probably equivalent to hydrochloric or even less. Chloric on the other hand...

woelen - 4-3-2015 at 00:13

If very dilute (e.g. 0.1% or so), you could safely taste HNO3 and HClO4. They are not really toxic.

But on the other hand, why taste acids? The problem is not in tasting the dilute acids, but in the chance of making mistakes. What if you accidently take some of your concentrated acid (e.g. 96% H2SO4 or 65% HNO3 :o) or some of a wrong acid (e.g. taking some of your arsenic acid or cacodylic acid while thinking you are taking some malic acid or citric acid)? You always can make mistakes, but when it comes to tasting things, the consequences of making mistakes can be much nastier than in other experiments.

For me, the rule is simple: never taste any chemical, not even NaCl or NaHCO3. You can always by accident take something else which is much more harmful.

bolbol - 4-3-2015 at 00:23

I understand your concern but obviously I put my safety and health first and if I was unsure of the kind of the acid that I was using, then I probably wouldn't take the chance at all.

And I don't know about HNO3s toxicity much, I guess its when ingested. I remember I read somewhere that in your body Nitrates turn into Nitrites??? And apparently thats bad

deltaH - 4-3-2015 at 00:55

Nitrites are used to preserve a very wide range of 'cured' and processed meats. There's some controversy around their use, not because of the toxicity of the nitrites directly per say, but because of the potential formation of highly carcinogenic nitrosamines in the gut supposedly aided by bacteriological action. Whether that's fact or fiction, I do not know.

woelen - 4-3-2015 at 01:34

Nitrites indeed are not really toxic by themselves (unless ingested in larger quantities), but they can react with secondary amines with formation of nitrosamines. Fish (especially somewhat less fresh fish) always contains some dimethylamine and at low pH (as is the case in the stomach) this can react with nitrous acid (from nitrite) to form dimethylnitrosamine. These nitrosamines are known carcinogens. So, eating certain types of flesh (e.g. salami, which frequently contains some NaNO2) combined with fish is not healthy, but of course if you do that infrequently, then I would not worry too much.

Sulaiman - 4-3-2015 at 05:38

Since gastric acid is up to 0.1M Hydrochloric acid (pH 1)
I would use a much lower maximum concentration than that for safety, e.g. 0.001M (pH 3) maximum.

Maybe different acids and bases are detectable at different concentrations,
or the concentration of any one particular may affect the taste.
So maybe you could do an experiment to determine minimum 'tasteable' concentration for each of your known, non-toxic acids and bases.
Then 10, 20, 30.. years from now you could do the same experiment to see how your taste sensitivity changes over time?
assuming that you don't poison yourself too soon :D

P.S spit, don't swallow :o

blogfast25 - 4-3-2015 at 07:05

Hydrocyanic acid would taste like your last seconds in this mortal coil.

deltaH - 4-3-2015 at 08:10

Since we're listing mineral acids NOT to taste, hydrazoic acid is another definite no.

Molecular Manipulations - 4-3-2015 at 08:17

While we're at it: Hydrogen cyanide, sometimes called prussic acid is something I would not drink by the gallon, or the mL for that matter.

Amos - 4-3-2015 at 12:35

Other straight-chain carboxylic acids would be interesting, considering we consume so much vinegar. Formic acid, propionic acid, butyric acid, lauric acid, etc.

DraconicAcid - 4-3-2015 at 13:11

Tartaric, citric, malic, maleic, acetic, oxalic, lactic and malonic should be safe to taste in small enough quantities. But I've smelled lactic acid, and don't want to taste it.

deltaH - 4-3-2015 at 13:23

Tartaric acid is in my fake ginger beer, citric acid is in my fake lemon juice, malic acid is in my fake orange squash concentrate (could have been malonic, I forget), acetic is in my fake vinegar, oxalic is in my spinach, lactic is in my yoghurt... pretty sure we all know what those taste like :D

...oh and phosphoric acid's in my Coke along with carboxylic acid :mad:

[Edited on 4-3-2015 by deltaH]

aga - 4-3-2015 at 15:12

Tasting acids, or any chemicals, is extremely stupid.

However, it does sound like a great idea !

Dilution is clearly the right thing to do.

How to make the Descriptions of a Sensory Experience useful or anywhere near standard is the biggest problem.

Perhaps someone will look up how wine tasters work and try to come up with a Standard.

It's certainly Unknown information, scientifically.

Hellafunt - 4-3-2015 at 15:57

in my youth i tasted some lysergic acid. it was good.

NexusDNA - 4-3-2015 at 16:31

This is an outstanding idea! I love to taste things. How come this never occurred to me?! We could create an etiquette and all, and sell 10ml bottles of 0.001M acids as gourmet stuff. It could even be marketed as "digestive" or "firebrand". Listen guys, possibilities here are endless.

Fatty acids taste nice. I wonder why the lower cousins are so nasty. What about phenols? I find tannin at low concentrations quite not displeasing.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 4-3-2015 at 17:32

Quote: Originally posted by NexusDNA  
What about phenols? I find tannin at low concentrations quite not displeasing.

Google search: site:www.thegoodscentscompany.com chemical name

Click the Organoleptics tab. There is often flavor data.

NexusDNA - 4-3-2015 at 18:13

Woa! That's awesome Etaoin, thank you very much!

[Edited on 5-3-2015 by NexusDNA]

bolbol - 4-3-2015 at 19:21

Btw just curious can arsenic acid be absorbed through the mouth? :D:D

Texium - 5-3-2015 at 15:47

Quote: Originally posted by bolbol  
Btw just curious can arsenic acid be absorbed through the mouth? :D:D
Wouldn't risk it!

Also, don't try formic acid. Concentrated, it can make you go blind, or even kill you. Diluted, it will still probably make you feel like you just put a handful of live fire-ants in your mouth.

[Edited on 3-5-2015 by zts16]

jsc - 6-3-2015 at 09:27

In the old days using taste was considered a standard method in chemistry and students were taught to taste chemicals as part of their analysis.

Within reason, this method can still be used, assuming precautions are taken.

There are no hard and fast guidelines as how to render harmless a given substances. It depend entirely on the item. It is unwise to expose yourself to organic or radioactive compounds (internally) because they can be hazardous even in very small quantities.

It is usually better to sniff something before tasting it. In this case a very powerful caustic or corrosive can often be detected before doing tissue damage. To sniff something, you "waft" it, which means you open the container and then using your hand wave over it gently, thus pushing a small amount of the vapor towards you. (Do not stick your face over the container)

Wafting will give you the odor of the substance which is related to the taste.

If the waft is stinging or noisome, then the substance must be diluted before further investigation. If the waft is not unpleasant then usually the pH is such that item can be tasted without harm. Redo the waft more vigorously to make sure the concentration is harmless. Do an explicit pH test if there is any uncertainty. Anthing between 2 and 12 is relatively safe. By comparison, lemon juice is 2, stomach acid is 1. If you have ever barfed into your mouth, you know what pH 1 is like.

When tasting make sure to have water rinse and a pH antidote (acid/base) available.



Zyklon-A - 6-3-2015 at 09:41

Quote: Originally posted by jsc  

It is usually better to sniff something before tasting it. In this case a very powerful caustic or corrosive can often be detected before doing tissue damage. If the waft is not unpleasant then usually the pH is such that item can be tasted without harm.

Umm, what about non-volatiles corrosive substances like sodium hydroxide solutions or sulfuric acid?

Sulaiman - 6-3-2015 at 11:21

Quote: Originally posted by jsc  
Do an explicit pH test if there is any uncertainty. Anthing between 2 and 12 is relatively safe. By comparison, lemon juice is 2, stomach acid is 1. If you have ever barfed into your mouth, you know what pH 1 is like.

When tasting make sure to have water rinse and a pH antidote (acid/base) available.



It's all there !

[Edited on 7-3-2015 by Sulaiman]

careysub - 6-3-2015 at 18:03

Quote: Originally posted by Amos  
Other straight-chain carboxylic acids would be interesting, considering we consume so much vinegar. Formic acid, propionic acid, butyric acid, lauric acid, etc.


Propionic acid is certainly safe to consume in reasonable amounts: it is used as a food preservative at the level of a few tenths of a percent (usually as calcium propionate) and it is the distinctive odor and flavor of swiss cheese (produced by genus Propionibacterium).

Cou - 6-3-2015 at 21:58

Don't taste sulfuric acid... SO3 is carcinogenic. Don't taste chromic acid or arsenic acid either, if you want to live to see your 60th birthday.

[Edited on 7-3-2015 by Cou]

Molecular Manipulations - 6-3-2015 at 21:59

Sigh...
Surely you realize there's no sulfur trioxide in sulfuric acid, dilute or otherwise. If you're going to constantly make claims like "x chemical is carcinogenic", please show your sources. BTW, Wikipedia doesn't count.

[Edited on 7-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

chornedsnorkack - 6-3-2015 at 23:27

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
While we're at it: Hydrogen cyanide, sometimes called prussic acid is something I would not drink by the gallon, or the mL for that matter.


True!
On the other hand, it is an acute poison, which in nonfatal amounts (below tens of mg) is rapidly and completely made harmless by body.

Testing the taste of arsenic acid, or the sweetness of lead sugar and beryllium salts, I´d be wary about. These might be long term, cumulative poisons.

Now, how about the baseline: checking the taste of underlying salts?

Say, small amounts of common anions, like NaCl compared to NaBr, Na2SO4, NaNO3, NaPO3, or with common cations like KCl, MgCl2, CaCl2, NH4Cl, brought to uniform pH of 5,5. How does the taste of NaCl and Na2SO4 compare? And how does this difference show in case of dilute HCl and H2SO4 - are they equally and undistinguishably sour at the same pH, or does the taste of Cl- and SO4(2-) stay perceptible?

Precisely what tastes salty? Is it the taste of Na+ (and therefore Na2SO4, NaNO3, NaPO3 taste equally salty), or of Cl- (and therefore it is KCl, NH4Cl, HCl that taste equally salty)?

Eddygp - 7-3-2015 at 04:19

Pentanedioic acid (glutaric acid)...

Etaoin Shrdlu - 7-3-2015 at 05:15

Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  
Now, how about the baseline: checking the taste of underlying salts?

Say, small amounts of common anions, like NaCl compared to NaBr, Na2SO4, NaNO3, NaPO3, or with common cations like KCl, MgCl2, CaCl2, NH4Cl, brought to uniform pH of 5,5. How does the taste of NaCl and Na2SO4 compare? And how does this difference show in case of dilute HCl and H2SO4 - are they equally and undistinguishably sour at the same pH, or does the taste of Cl- and SO4(2-) stay perceptible?

Precisely what tastes salty? Is it the taste of Na+ (and therefore Na2SO4, NaNO3, NaPO3 taste equally salty), or of Cl- (and therefore it is KCl, NH4Cl, HCl that taste equally salty)?

It's a combination of both the anion and cation, certainly. NaCl tastes salty, KCl tastes salty but metallic, and Na2CO3 tastes bitter.

Tdep - 7-3-2015 at 05:27

And ammonium chloride is super salty, that's what gives Dutch liquorice it's ah... 'Acquired taste' (to put it nicely)

chornedsnorkack - 7-3-2015 at 05:57

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
most other organic acids and many, many more.
[EDIT] Oh and I can't forget the common ones I do taste, or at least injest: ascorbic acid (vitamin C), acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin), citric acid and nasty butyric acid- not in pure form or on purposes but rather rancid butter.


Exactly. While many organic compounds are poisonous, many are perfectly physiologic and safe to feed on, at least in quantities to taste.

kecskesajt - 7-3-2015 at 10:10

Tartaric acid is the worst :(

The Volatile Chemist - 7-3-2015 at 14:53

I know I wouldn't taste any acids from the lab. Not tasting is what separates those who 'kook' from those who perform experiments. Though someone once did say "Orbitals are for mathmatitians, organic chemistry is for cooks!" - Not that I think that, though.
And pardon my ignorance, but isn't the butyric acid you mention an illegal drug?
Quote: Originally posted by Etaoin Shrdlu  
Quote: Originally posted by NexusDNA  
What about phenols? I find tannin at low concentrations quite not displeasing.

Google search: site:www.thegoodscentscompany.com chemical name

Click the Organoleptics tab. There is often flavor data.

That's great! Lots of info!
Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
Sigh...
Surely you realize there's no sulfur trioxide in sulfuric acid, dilute or otherwise. If you're going to constantly make claims like "x chemical is carcinogenic", please show your sources. BTW, Wikipedia doesn't count.

[Edited on 7-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

Especially if the word Cou is located somewhere on the edits page (Just kidding...)
Anyone want to try some methlene blue, we'll be able to tell how many acids you've ingested! :)

DraconicAcid - 7-3-2015 at 14:59

Quote: Originally posted by kecskesajt  
Tartaric acid is the worst :(


Isn't that the stuff they coat sour gummies in? I like it.

aga - 7-3-2015 at 15:07

Tasting your own processed Output is inherently distasteful.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 7-3-2015 at 16:09

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
And pardon my ignorance, but isn't the butyric acid you mention an illegal drug?

Butyric acid isn't a drug, it's just the straight-chain four-carbon carboxylic acid. It's what makes rancid butter and vomit smell bad. (Funnily, in isolation I don't find it that unpleasant.)

aga - 7-3-2015 at 16:12

Oddness

bolbol - 7-3-2015 at 16:17

I did check the taste of the salts once but they were sodium halides..
NaBr was really nice, it was as salty as NaCl but upon dissolving on your tongue it became a bit warm which was cool(I guess dissolving NaBr in water is exothermic...)

NaI tasted bitter not sure why... I wasn't expecting it too

Molecular Manipulations - 7-3-2015 at 20:38

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
And pardon my ignorance, but isn't the butyric acid you mention an illegal drug?

Oh all right. I'll pardon your ignorance just the once.
No, it's not a drug, it's a very simple carboxylic acid, hence butyric acid if you understand organic nomenclature. It's just like vinegar with a couple extra carbons and enough hydrogens to saturate it.
Perhaps you are confused with GHB (gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid), who's freebase (generally sodium I believe) is a anti-anxiety drug. But the drug is not an acid, it's a salt of an acid and not butyric acid at that. It's a controlled substance but not illegal to make, just to buy or sell without a prescription. I've actually made GHB and NaGHB a few times. There's a thread on here somewhere.
"Methoxide" has the prefix "meth" but last time I checked it's not the same as methamphetamine. Things like these are easy to get confused, happens to the <s>worst</s> best of us... apparently:cool:

[Edited on 8-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

The Volatile Chemist - 8-3-2015 at 12:18

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
And pardon my ignorance, but isn't the butyric acid you mention an illegal drug?

Oh all right. I'll pardon your ignorance just the once.
No, it's not a drug, it's a very simple carboxylic acid, hence butyric acid if you understand organic nomenclature. It's just like vinegar with a couple extra carbons and enough hydrogens to saturate it.
Perhaps you are confused with GHB (gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid), who's freebase (generally sodium I believe) is a anti-anxiety drug. But the drug is not an acid, its it's salt and not butyric acid at that. It's a controlled substance but not illegal to make, just to buy or sell without a prescription. I've actually made GHB and NaGHB a few times. There's a thread on here somewhere.
"Methoxide" has the prefix "meth" but last time I check it's not the same as methamphetamine. Things like these are easy to get confused, happens to the <s>worst</s> best of us... apparently:cool:

[Edited on 8-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

Haha, that's what I was referring to. I hated my health class in that it made me google the names of drugs on my home computer to find out information on them. It just doesn't seem like that's a wise idea. At least I'm going to wipe and redo my computer's hardware soon.

Molecular Manipulations - 8-3-2015 at 12:21

Are you worried about your parents or the laws finding drug research on your computer? If the former just use Google incognito, if the latter just stop worrying. Research can't get you in trouble.

The Volatile Chemist - 8-3-2015 at 12:34

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
Are you worried about your parents or the laws finding drug research on your computer? If the former just use Google incognito, if the latter just stop worrying. Research can't get you in trouble.

The latter. My parents trust me as far as I know. Besides, my computer boots into TTYLinux (like dos, but even less useful) unless you change the boot drive in the Bios anyways :P

Cou - 9-3-2015 at 14:27

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
Are you worried about your parents or the laws finding drug research on your computer? If the former just useincognito, if the latter just stop worrying. Research can't get you in trouble.

The latter. My parents trust me as far as I know. Besides, my computer boots into TTYLinux (like dos, but even less useful) unless you change the boot drive in the Bios anyways :P

Use Tor browser if you really want to read about drug chemistry out of curiosity. As long as you aren't actually making drugs, you should have freedom of Learning , but having an extensive Internet history on erowid's methamphetamine page combined with a purchase history of list 2 chemicals could be evidence for a judge to sign a no knock warrant...

aga - 9-3-2015 at 16:10

Would it be possible to reserve "Chemistry in General" for substantiated, referenced Chemistry threads ?

There are Other forum areas for use.

Darkstar - 9-3-2015 at 19:44

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
Are you worried about your parents or the laws finding drug research on your computer? If the former just use Google incognito, if the latter just stop worrying. Research can't get you in trouble.

The latter. My parents trust me as far as I know. Besides, my computer boots into TTYLinux (like dos, but even less useful) unless you change the boot drive in the Bios anyways :P


Dude, it's called the First Amendment! :cool: How else do you think books like PiHKAL, TiHKAL and Secrets of Methamphetamine Manufacture are perfectly legal? Exercise your rights!

The Volatile Chemist - 13-3-2015 at 13:06

General chemistry books often have sections on 'medical chemistry', and that's plenty to quench interest.

gdflp - 13-3-2015 at 13:15

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Would it be possible to reserve "Chemistry in General" for substantiated, referenced Chemistry threads ?

There are Other forum areas for use.


You're one to talk aga;) http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=29710

The Volatile Chemist - 13-3-2015 at 13:29

Quote: Originally posted by gdflp  
Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Would it be possible to reserve "Chemistry in General" for substantiated, referenced Chemistry threads ?

There are Other forum areas for use.


You're one to talk aga;) http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=29710

LOL
--Thrashed!--
...as we say in the midwest...

Honestly, though, we can't hold each other up to what we used to be when first starting on this site. To think - I didn't even know what a coordination complex was back then!!! (I just used that excuse to a friend who was making fun of me for getting a 43.3% on the Local Chemistry Olympiad - before I had taken chemistry....).

bismuthate - 13-3-2015 at 13:34

Iodic acid tastes less sour than I expected.

I sure hope nobody remembers my beginning.

[Edited on 13-3-2015 by bismuthate]

aga - 13-3-2015 at 14:36

Yes, you're right of course (blush).

Amos - 13-3-2015 at 15:27

So have any of these acids we've mentioned actually been tasted? I have to say I'm quite curious about the findings.

Darkstar - 14-3-2015 at 04:45

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
General chemistry books often have sections on 'medical chemistry', and that's plenty to quench interest.


If you're just not interested in that sort of stuff, that's fine. But don't avoid everything drug-related simply because you're afraid that reading it will somehow get you into trouble. Hating your health class just because you had to Google some info about illicit drugs is kind of silly, and wiping your hard drive to erase all evidence of it is a bit extreme and unnecessary. You can read about illicit drugs all you want and there's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. This includes detailed instructions on how to make them, too. Disclosure of that kind of information is protected under the First Amendment of the Constitution.

Besides, there's a lot of interesting and rather useful chemistry to be discovered at "underground" places like Rhodium's Archive and the old Hive forum. Say what you want about clandestine chemistry, but some of the most innovative and downright brilliant chemistry ever seen was ultimately the result of a bunch of drug cooks trying to figure out new ways to get around the ever-increasing number of restrictions on reagents and precursors. It's amazing how creative some people can be when given enough motivation. And what better motivator than recreational drugs?

nezza - 15-3-2015 at 01:23

OK. Here's a list of the ones I've tasted. (All as very dilute solutions)

Citric and Tartaric - Pleasantish "sour taste"

Salicylic - Slightly phenolic but pleasant.

Acetylsalicylic - A bit more astringent than salicylic.

Diethylbarbituric acid (we used to use this to make buffers in the lab). Faint smell and rather nice taste (V small amounts).

Acetic acid - vinegar.

Hydrochloric, hydrobromic, phosphoric, sulphuric and nitric. Strong "sour" taste.

Perchloric - Very astringent - goes beyond being sour.

There are a few I have or can make that I wouldn't try - Selenious and hydrazoic for instance.

woelen - 16-3-2015 at 03:00

Interesting to read about this. Good that you did not try selenious acid or hydrazoic acid.

I hope you did not swallow any of these solutions.

Some other interesting ones, which are not dangerous at high dilution:
- ascorbic acid
- propionic acid
- malic acid
- malonic acid
- succinic acid

The Volatile Chemist - 18-3-2015 at 12:49

Lactic acid? Mucic acid? Those are others I'd be interested in. If I remember correctly, they're based on the structures of sugars, oxidized.

Texium - 19-3-2015 at 07:12

Based on the smell of lactic acid, I wouldn't want to taste it. Sort of like sour milk mixed with sweat, although not super strong.

Praxichys - 19-3-2015 at 09:19

- d-Ascorbic acid has a sweet component and is fairly mild.
- Citric acid has a bit of a fruity component to it, almost like it were sugar-free lemon juice or something.
- Malic acid is just sharp and sour. I believe Warhead candies are coated in malic acid.
- HCl is like puke, minus the food.

I have not tried any other acids. The above acids (except HCl) were USP food-grade when I purchased them, and I couldn't resist.

Oxalic, cyanuric acid, and benzoic acids would also be interesting, but form extremely insoluble salts or are very insoluble themselves. (Read: kidney stones - be careful!) Toluenesulfonic acid probably tastes awful. Formic acid is probably pretty terrible too. I wonder if one can taste stearic acid?

Someone should try hydrocyanic acid. It is said to taste metallic. Hopefully that person lived through the experience!

bolbol - 21-3-2015 at 13:30

Can HCN really by absorbed if not swallowed?
Idk but I've seen stories of people trying to suicide with cyanide pills and it had failed so I was thinking maybe the conditions have to be just right or the dosage must be high enough?

j_sum1 - 21-3-2015 at 18:33

HCN is not something that I would play that game with. There are already enough fun things to try in this thread without inviting a death wish.

chornedsnorkack - 25-3-2015 at 10:22

Quote: Originally posted by bolbol  
Can HCN really by absorbed if not swallowed?

Oh yes. HCN can be absorbed by inhalation.

However, HCN is a relatively innocuous substance. It does have a small lethal dose for acute poisoning - in the region of 100 mg or less - but unlike many chemical substances is not a chronical cumulative poison. Amounts well below the acutely deadly quantities are rapidly and completely made harmless in the body.

The Volatile Chemist - 26-3-2015 at 13:34

Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  
Quote: Originally posted by bolbol  
Can HCN really by absorbed if not swallowed?

Oh yes. HCN can be absorbed by inhalation.

However, HCN is a relatively innocuous substance. It does have a small lethal dose for acute poisoning - in the region of 100 mg or less - but unlike many chemical substances is not a chronical cumulative poison. Amounts well below the acutely deadly quantities are rapidly and completely made harmless in the body.

Despite the fact the HCN will still kill the cells it interacts with...

morganbw - 26-3-2015 at 13:41

Gentlemen, try eating a hot dog instead, death will still follow but you can enjoy the taste, for many years..

The Volatile Chemist - 26-3-2015 at 13:52

We should force all caught spammers to taste test our products for us...

morganbw - 26-3-2015 at 14:00

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
We should force all caught spammers to taste test our products for us...


This coming from a child?
Send me your products and I will taste test them.

[Edited on 26-3-2015 by morganbw]

The Volatile Chemist - 26-3-2015 at 14:23

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw  
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
We should force all caught spammers to taste test our products for us...


This coming from a child?
Send me your products and I will taste test them.

[Edited on 26-3-2015 by morganbw]

Gee, you had to call me a child? Kid's alright, but child's just condescending...

gdflp - 26-3-2015 at 14:47

Quote: Originally posted by morganbw  
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
We should force all caught spammers to taste test our products for us...


Send me your products and I will taste test them.


Are you saying that you're spammer? Not that I'd disagree...

morganbw - 27-3-2015 at 03:29

Quote: Originally posted by gdflp  
Quote: Originally posted by morganbw  
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
We should force all caught spammers to taste test our products for us...


Send me your products and I will taste test them.


Are you saying that you're spammer? Not that I'd disagree...


Point taken, and well done as well.
I was a little deep in the bottle then and should not have been online.

chornedsnorkack - 27-3-2015 at 06:42

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  
Quote: Originally posted by bolbol  
Can HCN really by absorbed if not swallowed?

Oh yes. HCN can be absorbed by inhalation.

However, HCN is a relatively innocuous substance. It does have a small lethal dose for acute poisoning - in the region of 100 mg or less - but unlike many chemical substances is not a chronical cumulative poison. Amounts well below the acutely deadly quantities are rapidly and completely made harmless in the body.

Despite the fact the HCN will still kill the cells it interacts with...

Will it?
What kind of local damage does HCN cause? Is it corrosive to e. g. intact skin?

Molecular Manipulations - 27-3-2015 at 07:05

Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  

Despite the fact the HCN will still kill the cells it interacts with...

Will it?
What kind of local damage does HCN cause? Is it corrosive to e. g. intact skin?

No and no. It's not corrosive, and it won't interact with cells

The cyanide ion halts cellular respiration by bonding as a non-competitive inhibitor, reducing the activity of the enzyme cytochrome c oxidase. It's not toxic to cells, and its weak acidity causes it to be not very corrosive.
So a less-than toxic dose of CN^- will cause over-all less oxygen to each cell individually, so some of the weak ones will probably die sooner than they otherwise would've, but cyanide doesn't kill cells directly.

[Edited on 27-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

chornedsnorkack - 27-3-2015 at 09:36

Indeed. The most sensitive cells to cyanide poisoning are those most sensitive to hypoxia. Brain and heart.

On closer examination, it turns out that chronic poisoning of cyanide is possible after all - at doses much higher than acutely fatal ones.

The fate of cyanide in body is that it is converted into thiocyanate.
Two of the mechanisms of chronic cyanide poisoning include:
  1. thiocyanate, though less toxic than cyanide, builds up to toxic amounts
  2. production of thiocyanate exhausts body supply of sulphur in thiosulphate etc.

But local poisoning?
Cyanide absorbed or injected into local tissues would start being distributed around the body, as well as detoxified locally. Would a quantity too small for systemic poisoning do any serious harm locally?

The Volatile Chemist - 27-3-2015 at 09:36

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  
Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  

Despite the fact the HCN will still kill the cells it interacts with...

Will it?
What kind of local damage does HCN cause? Is it corrosive to e. g. intact skin?

No and no. It's not corrosive, and it won't interact with cells

The cyanide ion halts cellular respiration by bonding as a non-competitive inhibitor, reducing the activity of the enzyme cytochrome c oxidase. It's not toxic to cells, and its weak acidity causes it to be not very corrosive.
So a less-than toxic dose of CN^- will cause over-all less oxygen to each cell individually, so some of the weak ones will probably die sooner than they otherwise would've, but cyanide doesn't kill cells directly.

[Edited on 27-3-2015 by Molecular Manipulations]

Doesn't it cause permanent inhibiting within the mitochondria it bonds inside?

Molecular Manipulations - 27-3-2015 at 10:44

I assume it does, yes. I meant "less than lethal", not "less than toxic" BTW. The cytochrome c oxidase is quickly replaced, cyanide becomes lethal when cytochrome c oxidase is used up too fast for it to be replaced in time and too many cells die from inability to produce ATP.

The Volatile Chemist - 27-3-2015 at 11:58

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
I assume it does, yes. I meant "less than lethal", not "less than toxic" BTW. The cytochrome c oxidase is quickly replaced, cyanide becomes lethal when cytochrome c oxidase is used up too fast for it to be replaced in time and too many cells die from inability to produce ATP.

I see. But if the dose was localized in a non-fatal area, it would kill the cells in the area.
Anyways, I've been [accidentally :P] derailing threads all of today...

Molecular Manipulations - 27-3-2015 at 12:04

I'm not sure if a dose can be localized. I think it would spread out evenly. Except perhaps in the case of injection, where it might bind to all of the local cytochrome c oxidases before diffusing very much into the bloodstream.

chornedsnorkack - 27-3-2015 at 12:30

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
I'm not sure if a dose can be localized. I think it would spread out evenly. Except perhaps in the case of injection, where it might bind to all of the local cytochrome c oxidases before diffusing very much into the bloodstream.

Obviously cyanide being tasted is localized in mouth and saliva for a time. And then has to diffuse somehow to bloodstream, either through mouth or having been swallowed, through entrails.

Is cyanide absorbed well through tongue? And does a less than fatal dose of cyanide cause any localized damage to the cells of tongue and/or stomach, through which it is absorbed into bloodstream?

chornedsnorkack - 27-3-2015 at 12:33

Also: competitive inhibitors of cytochrome c oxidase include besides cyanide also carbon monoxide, azide, sulphide and formic acid. Which of these is most dangerous?

Molecular Manipulations - 27-3-2015 at 12:41

Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  

Obviously cyanide being tasted is localized in mouth and saliva for a time. And then has to diffuse somehow to bloodstream, either through mouth or having been swallowed, through entrails.
Is cyanide absorbed well through tongue? And does a less than fatal dose of cyanide cause any localized damage to the cells of tongue and/or stomach, through which it is absorbed into bloodstream?

That's my point, sort of. Cyanide is only toxic to cytochrome c oxidase, which is in the blood stream, so I can't see how it could cause local damage to tongue cells, except in the blood stream of said tongue, where it would move throughout the body quite quickly, about 90% of your blood is completely circulated in about one minute. Also I doubt cyanide is absorbed in the bloodstream from the tongue.

The Volatile Chemist - 2-4-2015 at 11:16

Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  

Obviously cyanide being tasted is localized in mouth and saliva for a time. And then has to diffuse somehow to bloodstream, either through mouth or having been swallowed, through entrails.
Is cyanide absorbed well through tongue? And does a less than fatal dose of cyanide cause any localized damage to the cells of tongue and/or stomach, through which it is absorbed into bloodstream?

That's my point, sort of. Cyanide is only toxic to cytochrome c oxidase, which is in the blood stream, so I can't see how it could cause local damage to tongue cells, except in the blood stream of said tongue, where it would move throughout the body quite quickly, about 90% of your blood is completely circulated in about one minute. Also I doubt cyanide is absorbed in the bloodstream from the tongue.

I guess so. Though I don't see why the tongue cells wouldn't absorb it, it's a pretty small ion. Also, it's reported that it gives a burning sensation in the back of the throat (And Then There Were None, by Agatha Christie)

chornedsnorkack - 4-4-2015 at 03:00

Quote: Originally posted by The Volatile Chemist  
Quote: Originally posted by Molecular Manipulations  
Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  

Obviously cyanide being tasted is localized in mouth and saliva for a time. And then has to diffuse somehow to bloodstream, either through mouth or having been swallowed, through entrails.
Is cyanide absorbed well through tongue? And does a less than fatal dose of cyanide cause any localized damage to the cells of tongue and/or stomach, through which it is absorbed into bloodstream?

That's my point, sort of. Cyanide is only toxic to cytochrome c oxidase, which is in the blood stream, so I can't see how it could cause local damage to tongue cells, except in the blood stream of said tongue, where it would move throughout the body quite quickly, about 90% of your blood is completely circulated in about one minute. Also I doubt cyanide is absorbed in the bloodstream from the tongue.

I guess so. Though I don't see why the tongue cells wouldn't absorb it, it's a pretty small ion. Also, it's reported that it gives a burning sensation in the back of the throat (And Then There Were None, by Agatha Christie)


Ask it this way: to affect tongue cells is a very different thing from damaging them! Example, brain: lack of blood flow to brain causes faintness in 3-5 seconds, unconsciousness in 10-15 seconds... yet permanent brain damage and death take 2 minutes or more.

So: are below-fatal amounts of cyanide likely to cause local feeling in tongue cells, which passes over as the cyanide is eliminated by spreading it around the body with bloodstream and conversion into thiocyanate, and the inhibited cytochrome c oxidase is recovered or replaced before the tongue/throat cells sustain any permanent damage?

The Volatile Chemist - 7-4-2015 at 08:22

You're right, of course. And the CN- doesn't have to be absorbed to be tasted.

learningChem - 19-4-2015 at 17:48

I tried oxalic acid. Tasted like lemon to me.

chornedsnorkack - 19-4-2015 at 21:13

Quote: Originally posted by learningChem  
I tried oxalic acid. Tasted like lemon to me.


Yes, but is there any difference between the taste of citric acid and oxalic acid, with concentrations adjusted so as to measure an equal pH?

Amos - 20-4-2015 at 03:38

Quote: Originally posted by learningChem  
I tried oxalic acid. Tasted like lemon to me.


Funnily enough, potassium hydrogen oxalate was once called "salt of lemon".

learningChem - 20-4-2015 at 14:08

Ha. Interesting. So I wasn't that far off the mark apparently.

As to how it compares to citric acid, I can't tell since I haven't tried pure citric acid.

Pasrules - 20-4-2015 at 14:17

To all those guys worrying about the chemistry before tasting hydrogen cyanide i'll give you the quick answer it tastes how it smells which is roasted/charred almonds

ave369 - 19-10-2015 at 03:06

Recently, I've accidentally tasted potassium bisulfate. It is very sour, extremely sour, but not burningly so. Very similar to citric acid, but stronger (I've tasted pure food grade citric acid and even tried to eat a sandwich with it, lol). Of course, I went all spitty-spit right after I felt the taste, so maybe I just wasn't exposed enough for it to burn my mouth.

[Edited on 19-10-2015 by ave369]

MeshPL - 20-10-2015 at 12:20

Not sure, but in 1984 G. Orwell described bad-tasting gin as having a taste of nitric acid.

aga - 20-10-2015 at 12:42

Tasting chemicals is a BAD idea.

You'll tittilate , damage or kill yourself and not glean any Useful information about the thing you're tasting.

Spend the Time making some $ instead and buy a GC, MS, NMR etc machine.

Wierdos. And you're not even properly drunk.

The Volatile Chemist - 24-10-2015 at 12:33

haha, way to make light of it. I'm a 'super-taster', I'm fairly certain. Too bad the ptc test strips come in 100 packs... :)

Carl Scheele

chloric1 - 13-12-2015 at 19:41

The famous chemist Carl Scheel tasted most of his preparations. We should create the Scheele Tasting Guild in his honor.:P;)

[Edited on 12/14/2015 by chloric1]

ave369 - 13-12-2015 at 21:15

Quote: Originally posted by chornedsnorkack  
Also: competitive inhibitors of cytochrome c oxidase include besides cyanide also carbon monoxide, azide, sulphide and formic acid. Which of these is most dangerous?


Azide, I think. No known antidotes. Against cyanides, sulfides and carbon monoxide there is the general purpose antidote methylene blue and specific antidotes like acyzol (the Russian anti-monoxide). Against azides, none of there work.

And formic acid, being an mid-strength acid, can only covertly (without a tell-tale blister) enter organism as methanol. And agaist this, the antidote is ethanol.

The Volatile Chemist - 14-12-2015 at 15:35

Some fine antidotes :) I think there's a rather complex ethanol antidote, but before this was discovered, supposedly the antidote to drunken-ness was more alcohol...{cite:'Bob' on usenet://sci.chem, yarchive}

Mabus - 15-12-2015 at 12:03

Not an acid, but I tasted with the tip of my tongue an aluminium sulfate tablet a few weeks ago. It tasted more like battery acid than salt, guess it hydrolyzes pretty quickly.

The Volatile Chemist - 30-12-2015 at 14:24

I oft accidentally inhale an extremely small portion of anhydrous CuSO4 as it is an extremely fine powder. Nasty, tastes like fine sand. Hydrated CuSO4 tastes bitter, I used to be reckless with my prep of basic copper(II) carbonate two summers ago and eat lunch after mixing some up. :)

ave369 - 9-12-2016 at 16:47

I've found a Youtube video of a Russian-speaking MORON who tasted HF (the moron survived, so no Darwin award here). He describes it as "like tasting hot vinegar".

Dan Vizine - 21-12-2016 at 18:31

Quote: Originally posted by jsc  
In the old days using taste was considered a standard method in chemistry and students were taught to taste chemicals as part of their analysis.

Within reason, this method can still be used, assuming precautions are taken.



I couldn't agree more. There are very few acids that I'd wouldn't taste if suitably diluted. You can detect the taste very tiny amounts of acids quite easily and safely. Including HCN. I might shy away from acids based on selenium, thallium and tellurium. Or some weird biological toxin that happened to be acidic.

The Golden Book of Chemistry had an experiment where you performed successive dilutions of H2SO4 and NaOH and tasted them. I did this 50 years ago, I guess.

My former boss worked at DuPont a long, long time ago (when they did this kind of thing)....he mouth pipetted HCN soln, goofed and you know the rest...got a mouthful. In my youthful astonishment I asked him "What did you do?!!"...he deadpanned "I spit it out". You can probably taste it at a couple % of a hazardous dose.

DrP - 22-12-2016 at 02:29

Quote: Originally posted by ave369  
I've found a Youtube video of a Russian-speaking MORON who tasted HF (the moron survived, so no Darwin award here). He describes it as "like tasting hot vinegar".


I don't know why, but I've always imagined it to taste kind of teflony.

Would I try it?... err.... No! lol. I suppose in a dilute enough amount it wouldn't do too much damage... That Russian survived. Was there any lasting damage to him?
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