Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Ammonium Chloride from Urea

Ammonium Chloride from Urea

shr3k - 1-2-2015 at 14:55

Hi guys, another noob question... sorry.

Urea decomposes at 140-160 into ammonia and other substances. I read that it was easier to obtain Ammonia Chloride then ammonia for obvious reasons but cannot find a process to do that.

Also would feeding a pipe from the heated urea into say hydrochloric acid at 140-160 yield Ammonia Chloride or can the same be done to Nitric Acid to get Ammonia Nitrate.

Sorry if this seams stupid, i'm trying to research without much success

Oscilllator - 1-2-2015 at 15:15

Urea does decompose at high temperatures, however it doesn't decompose into just ammonia. Like lots of decompositions it is quite messy and many reactions are involved. I seem to remember from looking into it before that some cyanide compounds could potentially be produced, which has always dissuaded me from just wacking some urea in a steel pipe and heating it up to see what happens.

Certainly some ammonium chloride would be produced if you bubbled it into HCl, however I would recommend running the gas through a condensor first to try and get rid of anything with a boiling point higher than room temperature as this will make separating the ammonium chloride much easier later on.

blogfast25 - 1-2-2015 at 15:15

Quote: Originally posted by shr3k

Urea decomposes at 140-160 into ammonia and other substances. I read that it was easier to obtain Ammonia Chloride then ammonia for obvious reasons but cannot find a process to do that.

Also would feeding a pipe from the heated urea into say hydrochloric acid at 140-160 yield Ammonia Chloride or can the same be done to Nitric Acid to get Ammonia Nitrate.

Sorry if this seams stupid, i'm trying to research without much success

You can buy ammonia solution from many hardware stores and also eBay.

Your proposed process won't work.

[Edited on 1-2-2015 by blogfast25]

Zombie - 1-2-2015 at 15:27

Perhaps it's just me.
I don't clearly understand exactly what you are wishing to achieve..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ammonium-Chloride-500g-Patina-platin...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ceric-ammonium-nitrate-99-995-Resear...

You can buy either from Ebay.

For a lot of the fellas that think these compounds are difficult to acquire or "not needed for home use...
GO LEGIT! Start a research business. Just register as a real lab. Credentials are not needed UNLESS you are ordering ready made scheduled drugs.

Yes before the knock down begins I realize zoning, and safety procedures apply. There are many, and varried ways big bro can take a bite out of your arse. BUT why not cover as many bases as you can, and be able to sleep at night.
If your this interested in chemistry to begin with... Go Legit! Order freely! You're doing nothing wrong to begin with correct.

sorry for ranting. I had to get that out.

shr3k - 1-2-2015 at 15:40

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie

Perhaps it's just me.
I don't clearly understand exactly what you are wishing to achieve..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ammonium-Chloride-500g-Patina-platin...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ceric-ammonium-nitrate-99-995-Resear...

You can buy either from Ebay.

For a lot of the fellas that think these compounds are difficult to acquire or "not needed for home use...
GO LEGIT! Start a research business. Just register as a real lab. Credentials are not needed UNLESS you are ordering ready made scheduled drugs.

Yes before the knock down begins I realize zoning, and safety procedures apply. There are many, and varried ways big bro can take a bite out of your arse. BUT why not cover as many bases as you can, and be able to sleep at night.
If your this interested in chemistry to begin with... Go Legit! Order freely! You're doing nothing wrong to begin with correct.

sorry for ranting. I had to get that out.

Understood, I would like eventually to see how certain drugs are made, out of curiosity and a very busy Uni life with a lot of substance abuse, would be cool seeing what was in the stuff I was consuming daily!

But for now it's just plain ignorant messing about... I should probably take a step back before I blow myself up!

blogfast25 - 1-2-2015 at 15:42

Quote: Originally posted by shr3k

I should probably take a step back before I blow myself up!

Make that two steps.

Zombie - 1-2-2015 at 16:19

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by shr3k

I should probably take a step back before I blow myself up!

Make that two steps.

I am very new to all this as well but I am not ignorant.
I agree w/ Blogfast. Perhaps your interest in producing "drugs" is outweighing your curiosity in chemistry.

I have an interest on the how, and why the chemical interactions of drugs take place. That alone is why I sought out a "chemistry" forum.
I also read everything I can find on Neurochemistry, as well as watch on line lectures on Pharmacology.

I'm in no way drawing a line. I get it... Perhaps you would be better of reading on Erowid, and BlueLight for awhile. They have some chemistry, and much better reference as to "home chef" kinda thinking.

If the chemistry were your true goal, then many references you have made would have been different.
I tend to love everyone, and judge no one BUT I also see trees inside the forest. Some are in the wrong environment for growth. Please take no offense. A few steps back to re-examine can never hurt.

shr3k - 1-2-2015 at 16:33

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by shr3k

I should probably take a step back before I blow myself up!

Make that two steps.

Understood, initially I was researching the synthesis of MDMA/Mcat/2c-B etc and looking into how they were made.

I am currently off work with depression and anxiety and mostly I would imagine caused by my misuse of drugs throughout University.

I am purely involved in the chemistry behind it, and I have done extensive research in the field of Nootropics and tried Modafinil/Armodafinil a few times. Another 2 substances I am interested in learning what is inside.

I would never imagine putting my family through the ordeal of being caught making drugs and would be a life ender. I am an Computer and Information Security Specialist, just very curious with how my Uni life affects my presence. Perhaps the chemistry and research was just something to do to pass the time.

I'll take a massive step back and put everything away for a few weeks, while researching and learning on here. I have no desire to go to Erowid or other drug forums and would hate to have that on my browser history!!! Work monitor both PC's closely to make sure their data is not being stolen.

cyanureeves - 1-2-2015 at 16:40

wait but doesnt ammonia and nitric acid in fact produce ammonium nitrate? and wont ammonia be released from urea with addition of sodium hydroxide?he does have the right idea though kind of doesnt he? i know his question was about merely decomposing with heat but the bubbling part to both his nitric acid and hydrochloric acid will work wont it?that is if he succeeds in producing the ammonia gas.

Zombie - 1-2-2015 at 16:51

There's more to it. I mean you have some demon that is mis-guiding you at the moment.
Bear w/ me guys. Chemistry forum I know...

There is a clear dissociation in your thinking/life.
Seriously now... Find a REAL Shaman. A Mentor.
Go to whatever university is accredited in Human Nature studies, and talk to the HEAD of that department.
You want to volunteer as his prodigy. Get a cell phone just for this new aspect in your life, and give the number to no one but the NEW contacts you make thru this effort. Not even yore wife gets this number.
Every time that phone rings it is HOPE that is calling. It could change everything that has ever plagued your life.
You are obviously seeking some missing part. I am only offering one potential path to finding it.

In a sense this is science fellas... A potential solution to a real problem can not be ignored.
Thank you for your tolerance, and respectfully Shr... you are worth your best efforts.

[Edited on 2-2-2015 by Zombie]

[Edited on 2-2-2015 by Zombie]

shr3k - 1-2-2015 at 16:58

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie

There's more to it. I mean you have some demon that is mis-guiding you at the moment.
Bear w/ me guys. Chemistry forum I know...

There is a clear dissociation in your thinking/life.
Seriously now... Find a REAL Shaman. A Mentor.
Go to whatever university is accredited in Human Nature studies, and talk to the HEAD of that department.
You want to volunteer as his prodigy. Get a cell phone just for this new aspect in your life, and give the number to no one but the NEW contacts you make thru this effort. Not even yore wife gets this number.
Every time that phone rings it is HOPE that is calling. It could change everything that has ever plagued your life.
You are obviously seeking some missing part. I am only offering one potential path to finding it.

In a sense this is science fellas... A potential solution to a real problem can not be ignored.
Thank you for your tolerance, and respectfully Shr... you are worth your best efforts.

[Edited on 2-2-2015 by Zombie]

[Edited on 2-2-2015 by Zombie]

In fairness this whole journey was a pretty silly idea, but 1 thing has prevailed, I actually have more of an interest on the methods and chemistry then I did when I started.

Zombie - 1-2-2015 at 17:01

No offense meant Sir.
I often times cross boundaries that I have no passport for.

shr3k - 1-2-2015 at 17:07

Quote: Originally posted by Zombie

No offense meant Sir.
I often times cross boundaries that I have no passport for.

No you were spot on, Initial curiosity led to here and wanting to learn how to make drugs... Yes it was for pure interest and curiosity but it is also a very bad idea.

But that said, I still wan't to practice chemistry and have ordered a fair few things. But I'll stick to the fun side for now and stay out of the dabbling!

blogfast25 - 1-2-2015 at 17:16

Quote: Originally posted by shr3k

I write this as an experienced degreed chemist with 30+ years of experience.

The idea that somehow you will understand how said drugs are made or work (or what's 'inside' them) by 'researching' this on an amateur science forum is simply folly. You won't gain that insight here, not even if you did have the requisite academic training, which you don't have.

What you need is highly professional medical people who can guide you with whatever addiction problems you may have now or have faced in the past and any consequences you may be facing as a result of this.

No one here can help you with that. Learning the basics of chemistry won't either.

As regards being interested in amateur chemistry, fine. Beware: 'many feel called but few are elected'. She's a hard mistress, our Chemistry...

[Edited on 2-2-2015 by blogfast25]

shr3k - 1-2-2015 at 17:21

Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25

Quote: Originally posted by shr3k

I understand and am sorry for treating you guys without the respect you deserve, and I whole heartily mean that.

That said, My interest in Chemistry has grown and the thought of ever synthesizing anything bad all but gone.

I would like to learn the basics and maybe even grasp some of the information. I would very much like to remain a constant user/browser of these forums and will stay away from drug research.

I can't stand drugs these days and they had had a bad influence on my life. I cannot change that and I thought understanding them more would help, but it's just opened up old wounds.

Let's leave it and I look forward to hopefully learning some cool stuff!

Bert - 1-2-2015 at 19:13

Quote:

I would never imagine putting my family through the ordeal of being caught making drugs and would be a life ender. I am an Computer and Information Security Specialist, just very curious with how my Uni life affects my presence. Perhaps the chemistry and research was just something to do to pass the time. I'll take a massive step back and put everything away for a few weeks, while researching and learning on here. I have no desire to go to Erowid or other drug forums and would hate to have that on my browser history!!! Work monitor both PC's closely to make sure their data is not being stolen.

Computer & information security specialist- Who doesn't know how to browse anonymously?

Sir, if you are MASSIVELY trolling us, that was past the boundary for myself.

If you are indeed a drug casualty, hey! I grew up with the guys who came back from Vietnam (or Woodstock/Altamont/the Hashberry). I can understand why what you are saying veers between simply making no coherent pattern and utter fantasy, I've seen it before.

Your move, shr3k- But I am NOT donkey. Nor shall you be given waffles.

macckone - 1-2-2015 at 21:02

This thread seems to have drifted a lot.
Ammonium Chloride or Nitrate can indeed be produced by
running COOL ammonia gas through the respective acids.
So the first process of making ammonia from urea is valid,
as is the second process of absorbing ammonia in an acid.
The key is both the acid and the ammonia being cool, other
wise you are boiling your acid and your ammonia and get
a really hard to condense mess.

Now a better method of making ammonium chloride is to mix
solutions ammonium sulfate with calcium chloride. Both are
readily available pretty much everywhere. The calcium sulfate
will precipitate and then you can separate by decanting and
filtering. Then boil off the water and you have ammonium
chloride. Sublimate your ammonium chloride if you need a
really pure product.

vmelkon - 2-2-2015 at 14:08

If you are interested in using urea to make NH3, yes it is possible by heating in the 150 to 180 C range. From what I remember, the principle byproduct is biuret. I have it in my notes at home. I plan to do it someday. I bought cold packs from the pharmacy which contain pure urea pellets. I wasn't aware that some cyanide would be produced. This is something that should be checked to assess the dangers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biuret

Oscilllator :
"I seem to remember from looking into it before that some cyanide compounds could potentially be produced, which has always dissuaded me from just wacking some urea in a steel pipe and heating it up to see what happens."