Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Unusual Chemicals, what to do with them ...?

Unusual Chemicals, what to do with them ...?

Maja - 14-4-2006 at 08:47

Hi, I have a few questions ... I think everybody faced with this problem. When you have some chemicals ...but you dont know what to do with them

I have a few reagents(from old lab...) with what I don't know what to do and they are quite expensive nowadays... I have about 2kg of Nitrosomorpholine C4H8N2O2
at http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLN1576 here it cost A LOT OF .... 60$ for 1g... Why it's SO expensive...?
Second ... Also few kgs of PHENYLANTHRANILIC ACID. Maybe some suggestions and/or some syntheses involving those materials ? I couldn't find any syntheses with those reagents. So please, help me

Thank you.

EbC: Made title slightly broader, to welcome input not just on expensive chems...

[Edited on 15-4-2006 by chemoleo]

Douchermann - 14-4-2006 at 09:13

Just save them until you find a use for them. Where did you get those anyway?

Maja - 14-4-2006 at 09:18

As I said ... I had a chance to take a few bottles from an old lab.

unionised - 14-4-2006 at 11:01

I haven't checked nitrosomorpholine but I know a lot of the nitrosamines are carcinogenic. That makes them more difficult to handle and might explain the high price.

chemoleo - 14-4-2006 at 18:04

I have another odd one, benztriazole.

(without the extra R1,2,3 phenyl).

What can you do with it? I know it is used in photography, it looks pretty reducing, but I don't know what it can be used for...

The_Davster - 14-4-2006 at 18:27

I know theres an explosive which uses it in the synthesis; BTX.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/lanl2_a/lib-www/la-pubs/003100...
Easy if you can make picryl chloride.

BromicAcid - 14-4-2006 at 19:41

I've got 100 ml of Chlorotrimethylsilane that I have yet to find a use for. I used about 2 ml to make some nitrotrimethylsilane for some odd reason but have yet to find use for the rest. Any resonable suggestions?

ordenblitz - 14-4-2006 at 20:36

I have about 300 lbs of Guanidine hydrochloride I have been trying to find a good use for.
Anyone comes up with a good idea for a useful synth... I'll send you some of it.

Maybe an aminoguanidine something...

Sandmeyer - 14-4-2006 at 20:37

BromicAcid

You can do much with it, a good start would be to enolize acetone ( http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/orgsyn/prepContent.asp?prep=cv8... and simillar http://www.orgsyn.org/orgsyn/orgsyn/prepContent.asp?prep=cv7... ) and try to do an arylation of it with a aryl halide or a diazonium salt (copper catalysed), I haven't seen this in litterature, but chances are big that you can make phenyl-2-propanones, but beware, plain P2P is illegal to posses.

[Edited on 15-4-2006 by Sandmeyer]

The_Davster - 14-4-2006 at 20:45

Quote:

Originally posted by ordenblitz
I have about 300 lbs of Guanidine hydrochloride I have been trying to find a good use for.
Anyone comes up with a good idea for a useful synth... I'll send you some of it.

Maybe an aminoguanidine something...

lbs!!?? Is that a typo? If it is not I would definatly like to hear how you came into that!

I know it is a precursor to tetrazoles

Me, I've got some neodymium and antimony that I don't really have a use for. No ideas whatsoever for the neodymium, but the antimony I plan to make some chlorides of when I have a place to do it...

[Edited on 15-4-2006 by rogue chemist]

ordenblitz - 14-4-2006 at 20:57

It's no typo.
Originally acquired for the synthesis of 3,6-dihydrazino-s-tetrazine but that chemical is no longer of interest, so the GHCl collects dust.

Chris The Great - 14-4-2006 at 21:17

Sweet jesus! What country are you in, I would pay you for some of that! I'd use it to make aminotetrazole and nitrotetrazole, and also a very interesting high impulse rocket propellant of some complex structure which is the salt of triaminoguanidine. Despite having so little oxygen it has solid carbon in the exhaust, it has a Isp of 230 or thereabouts. I remember the synth looked doable but needed a fair amount of hydrazine for the triaminoguanidine, but nothing too exotic.

I just tried a synth of guanidine nitrate (urea + AN) a few days ago, and I would like to get that working, but I wouldn't say no to a pound or two of the chloride salt.

praseodym - 14-4-2006 at 21:17

Quote:

Originally posted by rogue chemist
No ideas whatsoever for the neodymium, but the antimony I plan to make some chlorides of when I have a place to do it...

[Edited on 15-4-2006 by rogue chemist]

Uses of neodymium include:

1) Neodymium is a component of didymium used for colouring glass to make welder's goggles.

2) Neodymium colours glass in delicate shades ranging from pure violet through wine-red and warm gray. Light transmitted through such glass shows unusually sharp absorption bands; the glass is used in astronomical work to produce sharp bands by which spectral lines may be calibrated. Neodymium is also used to remove the green colour caused by iron contaminants from glass.

3) Neodymium salts are used as a colourant for enamels.

4) Neodymium is used in very powerful permanent magnets - Nd2Fe14B. These magnets are more expensive, but lighter and stronger than samarium-cobalt magnets. Neodymium magnets appear in high-quality products such as microphones, professional loudspeakers, in-ear headphones and computer hard disks where low weight, reduced size or powerful magnet are required.

5) Certain transparent materials with a small concentration of neodymium ions can be used in lasers as gain media for infrared wavelengths (1054-1064 nm), e.g. Nd:YAG (yttrium aluminium garnet), Nd:YLF (yttrium lithium fluoride), Nd:YVO4 (yttrium orthvanadate), and Nd:glass.

6) Probably because of similarities to Ca2+, Nd3+ has been reported to promote plant growth. Rare earth element compounds are frequently used in China as fertilizer.

Maja - 15-4-2006 at 01:01

Thank you for that pdf ,but I am not interested into explosives. Nice thread.... Anyone can ask what to do with that or another reagent ...

Maybe some more ref's on that compounds ?

woelen - 19-4-2006 at 13:48

I also want to mention a few special chemical, which I have. I could not resist buying them, when I could obtain them for just EUR 7,- per liter, reagent grade quality:

2-methyl 1-propanol: CH3CH(CH3)CH2OH
4-methyl 2-pentanone: CH3COCH2CH(CH3)CH3
triethylamine: N(CH2CH3)3

Besides that, I also have 50 ml of N-(2-hydroxyethyl) piperazine.

If anyone out there knows interesting synths or experiments with these chemicals, then I would be very pleased. At the moment they are stored in their original bottles, unopened, collecting dust.

DeAdFX - 19-4-2006 at 14:24

I am sort of in the same boat. A while back I bought a liter ofr Triethanolamine N(CH2CH2OH)3. I think the only thing I found via search engine was mustard gas/war gas(search was done a year ago). Hopefully someone might be able to suggest something a little tamer

Chris The Great - 19-4-2006 at 15:19

Triethylamine is very useful for preparing esters of phosphoric acid from the chlorides and an alcohol. It precipitates out of solution as the hydrochloride salt, is filtered off, and the products distilled to remove any unwanted esters (mono or di or whatever).

12AX7 - 19-4-2006 at 19:24

Triethyl perhaps, but triethanol?

Sounds kinda sticky, in an polar way.. a flower of electronegative elements huh?

Tim

Maja - 20-4-2006 at 03:38

I think triethylamine can be used in Demethylation of Vanillin it yields protocatechualdehyde. Here is quote from rhodium.

Quote:

From Rhodium
Vanillin Demethylation with Pyridine and AlCl31

Anhydrous AlCl3 (9.7 g, 0.0724 mol) was suspended in a solution of 10g (0.0658 mol) of vanillin in 100 ml of methylene chloride in an apparatus protected from atmospheric moisture. While stirring briskly and cooling to maintain the temperature at 30-35°C, 22.9g (0.290 mol) of pyridine was added slowly. The reaction was vigorous; the resulting clear light orange solution of the reaction complex was heated to reflux (45°C) and maintained at that temperature with stirring for 24 hours. The solution, which had darkened only slightly during the reflux period, was cooled to 25°C and the product was hydrolyzed, while stirring and maintaining the temperature at 25-30°C, by the addition of dilute (15-20%) HCl until the mixture was definitely acidic to congo red indicator. Of the two phases present at this time, the lower methylene chloride layer contained most of the small amount of the unchanged vanillin, and essentially no protocatechuic acid, the latter was dissolved in the aqueous phase. Evaporation of the methylene chloride yielded 0.8 g of vanillin. Extraction of the aqueous phase with ether followed by evaporation of the ether left 7.9 g (87%) of pale yellow crystals of protocatechualdehyde melting at 153-154°C.

Using the cheaper triethylamine in place of pyridine lowered the yield to 61.5%

ordenblitz - 20-4-2006 at 17:47

The latest addition to my collection of impossible to get chems.

Old #72
mw- 178.49
99.89%

Now....what to do with it ?
The nitrate salt sounds interesting

[Edited on 21-4-2006 by ordenblitz]

Hf2.JPG - 183kB

The_Davster - 20-4-2006 at 19:06

Another one for me: D2O(100ml bottle, 2/3-3/4 full)...Might give that cold fusion experiment a try if I can find that site which gave specifics... Unless anyone else has suggestions.

chemoleo - 20-4-2006 at 21:52

D2O- you could prove its identity by growing bacteria in them, or rather, an agar-based medium thereof.... in D2O organisms grow slower, or not at all. Also, if you are after some metabolite, you could make deuterated versions of it.... which are of great utility in NMR (I.e. glucose, ATP, whatever). Not quite realistical on such a small scale though.

Ordenblitz... I don't get it... what IS it you are having? Old #72???

Ah got it... Hafnium metal... what on earth could you want with it? You could play a bit of inorg. chem... the lanthanides ... always fun, since they aren't that well characterised.

[Edited on 22-4-2006 by chemoleo]

skippy - 21-4-2006 at 13:16

I bought an ancient tin of lead arsenate at a flea market. The tin is really cool looking, which is the main reason I bought it. Its also cool to freak people out when you show them it what with the whole double whammy lead and arsenic mojo. But what the hell to do with it? Damned if I know.

12AX7 - 21-4-2006 at 18:21

Flow fluorine over it, distill off the AsF5 and dissolve in HSO4F.

Tim

jimwig - 22-4-2006 at 15:16

bennzatriozole is also known as Kodak AntiFog #1. It takes the light sensitivity down a notch or two. IfIRemember correctly. It helps reduce fog in both papers and films.

skippy - 22-4-2006 at 19:31

12AX7, I'm ashamed to admit I don't know what that would form. I looked into the matter on google and I gather that it would form a crazy super acid. Am I correct? Sounds like something nice and safe for the kids to do in the kitchen!

12AX7 - 22-4-2006 at 22:44

Ya- SbF5 and AsF5 are uber lewis acids, or whatever, basically they'd rather be AsF3 or SbF3, so you can imagine the oxidizing potential available. HSO3F (fluorosulfonic acid) just adds to the suspense, as it's already quite a strong acid. Wikipedia "superacid" entry has more detail than I shall go into, being off topic

Tim

Endo - 11-5-2006 at 14:21

I have a Kilo of Imidazole...

I have been thinking about looking up to see if diazo chemistry will work well with a secondary amine.

chemoleo - 11-5-2006 at 17:28

Imidazole is a great buffer, around pH 7, and doesn't have the problems associated with Tris and so on.
Plus, it is fantastic for chelating Ni2+ ions (and probably others) - in fact it is used to elute histidine-linked peptides/proteins from a Ni2+ chelate column.
Also, I am sure it makes some interesting salts with HClO4, HNO3, etc.

Are there recorded instances of where a secondary amine works for diazotation? That'd be new to me....

Endo - 12-5-2006 at 09:47

for Imidazole I found several different organometallic compounds.
Involving Cu, Co, Cr,Fe and Ag.

I will probably try making the perchlorate with some perchoric acid.
I have found some references to doing this neutralization in alchol.

The silver and copper look more promising for an energetic compound. Perhaps I can get the perchlorate to complex with some ammonium persulfate with added ammonia in the presence of copper.

I will probably try this tonight

Thanks
Endo

DeAdFX - 13-5-2006 at 21:28

Para-amino benzoic acid... Besides its commerical use as a sunscreen/nutrient could this be used as a subsitute for benzoic acid in whistling rockets?

The_Davster - 15-5-2006 at 15:36

Powdered tungsten.....

=SkyNET= - 15-5-2006 at 19:03

I wish I had tungsten.

I have some Cocamide.

woelen - 16-5-2006 at 14:42

Quote:

Originally posted by rogue chemist
Powdered tungsten.....

Dissolve this in 10% H2O2 and use the resulting solution of WO3 (or H2WO4) for interesting aqueous chemistry experiments. When you add the metal to an excess amount of 10% H2O2, then in a night time it has dissolved. Only use small amounts at a time, otherwise you may have a runaway, resulting in decomposition of all H2O2 and foaming of the liquid.

woelen - 16-5-2006 at 14:43

I have tirone and pyrogallol red. I know these are indicators, but for what? What interesting things I can do with these?

The_Davster - 16-5-2006 at 17:30

Was not with tungsten, but with tungsten hexachloride, that I made tungsten hexaphenoxide tonight. From Brauer. The tungsten hexachloride I used was really old and hydrolysed in parts, so I did not attempt purification as tungsten oxide would be contaminating.

Also learned that I really really hate the smell of phenol, especially in my basement.

EDIT: Wolean, just 10% peroxide? No acid?

EDIT: Oh thats weird...the hexaphenoxide is bright red, the isopropoxide which I just made is blue...

[Edited on 17-5-2006 by rogue chemist]

[Edited on 19-5-2006 by rogue chemist]

tungsten hexaphenoxide.JPG - 29kB

Maja - 17-5-2006 at 00:30

Quote:

Originally posted by woelen
I have tirone and pyrogallol red. I know these are indicators, but for what? What interesting things I can do with these?

http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/croweacinald...

Here is some uses for pyrogallol.

Vitus_Verdegast - 18-5-2006 at 10:41

???

Pyrogallol red is a dye!

not the same as pyrogallol!

Maja - 19-5-2006 at 10:06

Ups, sorry. Did not noticed. My fault.

mick - 19-5-2006 at 13:29

Back to imidazole. To purify, it sublimes under vac.

mick

Chris The Great - 19-5-2006 at 15:12

Quote:

Originally posted by DeAdFX
Para-amino benzoic acid... Besides its commerical use as a sunscreen/nutrient could this be used as a subsitute for benzoic acid in whistling rockets?

Novocaine, that stuff dentists numb your mouth with. There is a thread in this forum about the synth.

woelen - 20-5-2006 at 14:37

Quote:

Originally posted by rogue chemist
EDIT: Wolean, just 10% peroxide? No acid?

Indeed, just peroxide, no acid. The resulting solution, however, becomes somewhat acidic (H2WO4 is an acid).

The_Davster - 20-5-2006 at 15:16

I must admit, I had my doubts that it would work, but it did.
Also, tungsten hexachloride is fun stuff, if you can get it. From my recent experiments with it it seems like it reacts with alcohols to form blue compounds, and with phenols to make red compounds. I may have discovered its use as in indicator. All the products are surprisingly resistant to hydrolysis. The ethoxide has been under water for 4 days now, and there is very little tungsten oxide floating around(its yellow).

The_Davster - 26-5-2006 at 14:47

I can get some cool cyclics like cyclopropylamine and cyclobutanecarboxylic acid, anything interesting that can be done with them?

I don't know anything about potenially illict uses of them, so if they are used in drugs I will not get them. So let me know if they are!

[Edited on 26-5-2006 by rogue chemist]

Rosco Bodine - 10-3-2007 at 05:13

Quote:

So , did you ever try a double decomposition to convert
the hydrochloride to the nitrate , perhaps by using
NH4NO3 , or NaNO3 solution , mixed with a solution
of the guanidine hydrochloride ?

If there is an easy conversion to the nitrate , then that
can easily be converted to nitroguanidine by dissolving
the nitrate in cold concentrated H2SO4 , and then dumping
the milky solution over a large excess of crushed ice .
The nitroguanidine can be recrystallized from boiling water .

Nitroguanidine can be reacted with hydrazine sulfate to
form nitroaminoguanidine , which forms heavy metal salts
which are initiators .

Nitroguanidine also can be reduced to aminoguanidine by
powdered zinc and ammonium sulfate , or by electrolytic reduction . The aminoguanidine can be diazotized with sodium nitrite to guanyl azide and isolated as the picrate ....which is an effective base charge for detonators .

Or the aminoguanidine may be converted to tetracene ,
or 5-aminotetrazole by varying the pH at which the diazotization is performed .

From these various intermediates are routes to many different energetic tetrazoles .

Sauron - 10-3-2007 at 06:33

You can't go by sciencelab prices, they are outrageous for anything and everything and I am sure they are just a repack operation. If you want reference prices use Aldrich, Merck or Acros.

Also significant are whether or not container has been opened, how it has been stored, how old it might be, etc. Second hand reagents under the best of conditions do not hold their value particularly well as some compounds have a limited shelf life, you clearly cannot guarantee the condition of the contents, you probably cannot even assay them. Frankly if you called your local/state govt they's make you pay for them to haul them away to a hazmat disposal site. It's a dead albatross you have there. Not a gold mine. 300 lbs guanidine hcl but you aren't interested in explosives?

Rosco Bodine - 10-3-2007 at 06:39

There's always eBay if it's not a forbidden material ....

another one of those " as is " listings .

Rosco Bodine - 3-4-2007 at 14:42

Quote:

Aminoguanidine huh? Okay ...you got it

You may be able to convert the guanidine hydrochloride
via reaction with hydrazine ( in situ from the sulfate) to aminoguanidine . So far as I know the specifics for
this are unpublished and unconfirmed but this seems plausible and would be a worthy experiment .

It seems likely that aminoguanidine bicarbonate could be made and isloated from the reaction mixture of *any* soluble guanidine salt with hydrazine sulfate having been digested for a time at the appropriate pH , then treated with CO2 or sodium bicarbonate .

See the following thread ,

https://sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8144&...

about two thirds the way down the page , see my post
" A possible simplified method for aminoguanidine "

Di and triaminoguanidine compounds should be possible by increasing the amount of hydrazine sulfate proportionally .

SAM4CH - 9-12-2007 at 12:09

how to prepare WCl6 in Lab!!?

Rosco Bodine - 12-8-2010 at 01:04

Quote: Originally posted by ordenblitz

I have about 300 lbs of Guanidine hydrochloride I have been trying to find a good use for.
Anyone comes up with a good idea for a useful synth... I'll send you some of it.

Maybe an aminoguanidine something...

How about guanidine perchlorate ?

If that pallet is still collecting dust you could convert some of it to guanidine perchlorate. Get an equimolar solution of NH4ClO4 going at a boil, and slowly stream in an equimolar amount of NaOH with the loss of ammonia converting to a residual sodium perchlorate solution. Stream in your Guanidine Hydrochloride with stirring, and you should get guanidine perchlorate precipitating as crystals from the residual sodium chloride.

Methansaeuretier - 12-8-2010 at 11:06

I've got these for free and don't know what to do with them (all little amounts 10-100 g):

Silver cyanide
Acridin orange
Salicine
Indol-(3)-butyric acid
Nitroprussid-Sodium
Natural Yellow 18
Indigo carmine
L-Adrenaline
Basic Blue 12
Fuchsine
Rhodamine B
Malachite green
Orange G
4-Nitroaniline
Congo red
Aniline blue
Tryptan blue

The WiZard is In - 12-8-2010 at 11:57

Quote: Originally posted by DeAdFX

Para-amino benzoic acid... Besides its commerical use as a sunscreen/nutrient could this be used as a subsitute for benzoic acid in whistling rockets?

You could use it to preserve your cherries or other fruits.

This from the antipodes, —
Accession Number:
ADA131026

Full Text (pdf) Availability:
Size: 0 KB
Handle / proxy Url: No Full Text PDF Available

Potassium Benzoate for Pyrotechnic Whistling Compositions: Its Synthesis and Characterization as an Anhydrous Salt,

Corporate Author:
MATERIALS RESEARCH LABS ASCOT VALE (AUSTRALIA)

Personal Author(s):
Whelan, D J
Elischer, P P

Report Date:
Feb 1983

Media Count:
29 Pages(s)

Report Number(s):
MRL-R-871 (MRLR871)

Identifiers:
Whistling compounds

Abstract:
Potassium benzoate is one of the ingredients in the formulation SR 136 Whistling Composition. However, some ambiguity exists in the chemical literature as to its hydration state. In this investigation, it was established that potassium benzoate crystallizes from water as colourless plates containing no water of crystallization and it does not appear to take up water from its environment. Its DSC thermogram, over the temperature range 310 K - 750 K, consists of a single, sharp and symmetrical endotherm, occurring near 714 K and probably due to melting, the heat of this reaction being ca 213 J/gram (50.9 cal/gram). It can be prepared from stoichiometric amounts of benzoic acid and either potassium hydroxide or potassium bicarbonate.

Distribution Limitation(s):
01 - APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE

Drying it is going to take a bit of creative chemical engineering.

K-benzoate-1.jpg - 246kB

djh
----
IN ENGLAND NOW

DESPITE a lack of corroborative evidence, summer must have arrived,
because the chap up the road has set up his barbecue in the back garden. The
sight of this fearsome apparatus always reminds me of my introduction, many
years ago, to the name basic ritual of the Australian chop picnic.

The principle is simple: you take an ample supply of raw red meat, drive to a
spot where the bull ants and the tiger snakes are not too thick on the ground,
build a fireplace with the neighbourhood stones and collect a pie of dry gum
leaves and sticks. If you are a dedicated Aussie, you then light the fire by
rubbing two sticks together; if not, you use a match. The meat is placed over the
flames on a rickety, platform made of folded chicken wire and converted into
gritty carbon, which you hold in your hand and tear to pieces with your teeth,
manifesting every sign of enjoyment, Meanwhile a billy with a wire handle,
usually an old tin that once held kerosene or weedkiller, has been filled with
stagnant water from the creek and is now boiling. A handful or two of tea is
thrown into it at a precise moment determined by divination, a green gum leaf is
added to the potion as propitiatory magic, and the whole is then whirled around
to distribute the various solids, which by this time include a few bush flies, ants,
and perhaps a small lizard. The resulting stiff brown suspension is then drunk,
again with every expression of delight.

At first, I was in no position to protest. But after I got married and my wife, who
was a strong supporter of this ceremonial meal, began to inflict it on me, I
suggested that I might be provided with a small bacon-and-egg pie to eat while I
had the pleasure of watching other people appreciate their charred chops. I also
put in a plea for beer or lemonade in place of the curious bitter brown syrup, and
I was, rather pityingly, indulged in these whims.

But at least the Australian routine has one great advantage over the effete
British one, where paper plates and even knives and forks may be provided. The
ambient air is usually warm or hot, whereas attendance at this chap's barbecue
up the road means putting on three or four sweaters and taking along oilskins
and an umbrella.

The Lancet, August 29,1987

Random - 15-8-2010 at 13:34

What could I do with metal citrate salts like copper citrate, magnesium and calcium citrates...?

ldanielrosa - 16-8-2010 at 00:03

Methansaeuretier, the fuchsine is a nice selective dye that works well with periodic acid to test for glycerol and glycols- also ketones I think...

I only know about it from my interest in biodiesel.

Mildronate - 16-8-2010 at 01:04

I had similar problem, i had Azur I and Azur II

densest - 16-8-2010 at 07:40

Most of the dyes could be used in selective biological stain systems. Fuchsine, malachite green, congo red, and tryptan blue I'm sure of, and the rest are pretty likely. Congo red, fuchsin in acid, and the blues are commonly used IIRC. The dyes are sometimes used in combinations to color different types of cells in different ways or to distinguish different parts of cells.

Relating the binding of each dye to the chemical constituents of the cell parts might be interesting.

The dyes are often used in concentrations like 1% a drop at a time, so 100g is a lifetime supply for many people.

[Edited on 16-8-2010 by densest]