LESSONS LEARNED IN OUTFITTING A HOME CHEM LAB V1.0, 11/4/2000
=============================================================
0) Introduction
1) Lessons Learned
a) buying glassware and labware
b) obtaining chemicals
c) information sources and tutorials
d) stoppers, glass tubing and stopcocks
e) scales
f) rubber tubing
g) vaccume aspirators and plumbing fixtures
h) CBL - Calculator Based Lab
i) of ringstands and latticeworks
j) indicators
2) Sources
1a) BUYING GLASSWARE AND LABWARE:
---------------------------------
Here's my best price list for items I've located new.
When buying used, I like to pay between 20% and 50% of the
best new cost I can find, and generally base my offers for
items in that range. If a used item costs more than 50% of
what I can get it for new, I generally go for the new one.
(COMPARISON SHOPPING)
(AUCTONS)
1) biding in the midle of an auction, usually just drives the price up. Bidding at the begining to put it on you "items I'm bidding
on" list will free up a slot on "items I'm watching", but resist the urge to bid in the middle - that just drives the price up and
you're bidding against yourself in that case.
2) "sniping" often works - there is generally a flury of bids at the very end. If you decide your max bid, and that should be more than the
minimum incrament, place that bid 10-15 seconds before the auction ends. Yes, refresh several times, and calibrate w/ a watch w/ a seconds readout.
This usually will result in a win 80-90% of the time. You don't want to give another bidder time to see that they have been outbid, and one up
you. You will knowtice some prices spiking in the last few minutes as people get caught up in frantic bidding. Bid once, and at the last minute.
3) sighn in before bidding - saves time, and you could loose the auction while your id is being processed, if not.
4) Know what something is worth before bidding. Both retail and the going rate on e-bay. Watch and research before bidding or you will find yourself
buying something at more than retail. This can also be a good guage of where you should set your maximum bid. This will also tell you when you see a
realy good deal on an item.
5) every once and a while the market will get flooded by a particular seller who's putting up alot of an item. If it's in demand, the first
few will sell at very a very high price, and then the price will take a steep drop. If the seller posts something like "last few" (very
common), the price will spike again. Often if you write the seller, they will tell you how many of anitem they have, and may be willing to sell you a
unit direct at the average price they are getting for them at the moment.
6) if there is a rich market of an item and many bidders, you'll start to see names of people bidding against you on a regular basis. You can
contact these people and work out an arraingement to your mutual advantage. One example is you don't bid against me on this lot, I won't
bid against you on that lot. Another arraingement is if you see a large lot of something (this generally has fewer bidders and sels for a smaller
per-unit cost) is to get together w/ other bidders and say, leave this one alone, if I get it will sell you X% of it, at my cost, plus shipping to
you. This is less common, but I have done it successfully a couple of times. The weight of the lot factors in, if it's a heavy item, it becomes
less desirable as part of it will be shipped twice. If you buy a larger lot than you need on your own, you can put the un-needed portion up for
auction too.
7) be carefull about shipping charges - some sellers massivly inflate the "handling" part of this.
8) some sellers put up items w/ a min bid of what they sell them for retail. If you watch for a while, it's pretty easy to tell who these people
are. Their items being on the expensive side, a lack of bids and a link to a commercial web page are good clues.
9) If you see an item you are interested in, but that you think the seller is asking too much for, write and tell them. Bud don't bid. If they
get no bids, they may contact you (or you could contact them w/ a counter offer), or they may put it up again (second listing for the same items is
free) at a lower starting price. If you can point to a web site that has the same or equivalent item for less, retail, than their min bid, this helps
give you some negotiating leverage. Ditto for a recent max selling price of similar items on e-bay.
10) some people will put ludicrous reserves on items - it happens. If the reserve is not met, they don't ahve to sell to you (but they have the
option t sell to you if they want).
11) research other bidders - if you find a newbie (low number of feedbacks, bidding history - and check show all auctions for the past month worth)
with not alot of activity, you can probably outbid them easily. Also, note how much they are bidding for items, to deteermine what they are willing
to pay for an item, if they've made a large purchase recently and may be shy of making another, or placing high bids, or if they regularly make
large purchases they probably have deep pockets. If you are bidding against this latter type, yur chances are slim of winning, but sometimes you can
if the item is worth more to you than to them - don't expect it it to be cheap, however. One time I was suprised at what the bidders max bid
would have been and I would have won - I offered to back off in exchange for them selling me part of the lot, in that case.
12) research the sellers feedback rating and comments. If others have had problems with the seller, you might not want to do business with them.
13) when you win, or even if you don't - make a habit of asking if they have more of an item that will pass on at the same cost, and if they have
any other related items that they would be wiling to sell directly. I ahve extablished several relationships this way, where I was able to buy things
at better prices than I could have on e-bay.
14) for the best deals seek out the mis-labled, mis-spelled, poorly described and the mis-placed items. Sellers who make these errors tend to be
inexperinced. The most common mis-labeling is being too specific, frequently placing a brand name and model number in the descriptor, for example Pur
XYZ rather than "hikers water filter", unless you are searching for "Pur" and the other brands of filters rather than just water
filter or purifier, you would never see it, but that's the point! - alot of other people won't see it eithor!, hence fewer bids and a lower
price. Some of the most common items in this category are electronics and military items like seismic intrusion detection devices, radios and CBW
gear. When you do a broad keyword search, note manufactuer names, part numbers and mil id's and try those. Misspelled items are another edge, but
not as common. single vs double letters and vowels in particular will sometimes yeild results. Misplaced items are simply items that are in the wrong
category, so that a camera is listed in the area where refrigerators are listed.
(USING EQUIPMENT FROM OLD CHEM SETS)
(USING EQUIPMENT FROM NEW CHEM SETS)
(MAKING LABORATORY EQUIPMENT)
1d) STOPPERS, GLASS TUBING AND STOPCOCKS:
-----------------------------------------
Rubber stoppers tend to be expensive. Getting the correct
size for you glassware will at first seem a daunting task, there are
charts on a couple of the sites listed that tell you eithor dimentions
or what it fits - unfortunatly there are 2 different charts on
different sites... These sites are:
I tend to standardize on mostly 250 mL flasks and beakers, as that
size is about right for small experiments. #6 stoppers fit 250 mL flasks,
for the most part (some 250 mL flasks have a wide-mouthed opening that
require a larger stopper).
Stoppers come in solid, one hole and 2 hole varieties, and sizes
of 000 (smallest), 00, 0, and 1 and above. I think having 2 of each size
and hole configuration works well (that's 6 of each size total), with
more for #6 (or whatever size you standardize on for flasks) and more
for the size of test tubes you use.
The hole sizes in the stoppers are as follows: Stoppers #000, #00, #0, #1, hole size is 2mm. Stoppers #2 through #15 hole size is 6mm. When inserting
any object through the hole, it is imperative that the object be lubricated. We recommend our slicon grease for an inert lubricant (Part #G130). Use
extreme caution when forcing glass tubing through a hole. Rubbers stoppers are tapered, the larger dimension is the top of the stopper, the smaller
dimension is the bottom of the stopper. The dimensions are in millimeters (25 millimeters equals 1 inch). If it is necessary to enlarge the holes in
the stopper, first freeze the stopper, then drill the necessary size hole with a drill using water as a lubricant.
Go to your local hobby shop and secure some thin walled brass tubing.
Carefully (no bends) cut a 3 inch piece of the size that you want the hole in
the stopper to be. Put the 3 inche piece of tubing in a drill press, set for
one of the higher speeds. Turn it on and take a fine file, and while it's
spinning use the file to sharpen the brass tube. If you hold the file at a
tight angle, you will make the end of the brass tube RAZOR Sharp. This is the
key. Then take your stopper and put a drop of glycerine on the spot that you
want to put the hole at. Turn on the drill press and ease into the stopper.
The technique is not to go through on one pass, but to go a third, back up,
go another third, back up, and go all the way through. This helps spread the
lubricant through the length of the hole. Use a scrap piece of wood as the
backer, under the stopper. You must sharpen the brass tube FOR EVERY NEW
HOLE. If you try this and have problems, you are not getting the tube sharp
enough.(thanks to Tracy for this tip!)
6mm (7mm?)glass tubing fits most stoppers above test tube sizes (the "0"s)
but I havn't figured out what size rubber tubing fits that.... (YET!)
#4 stoppers don't seem to fit any glassware, but may fit 2 liter pop
containers which are perfect for reactions where you are bubbling a gas
through a liquid...
(working glass tubing)
(glass stoppers)
(stopcocks, glass and teflon)
stopcock greese is expensive, but a good general purpose lubricant.
My roommate (a chemist), indicated that vasaline or the silicon greese used to
pack bearings (automotive supply shop) make fine substitutes. It's used with
any glass stoppers/stopcocks, as in barets, sep funnels, etc. to seal vaccume
desicators, when inserting glass tubing into stoppers, and so on...
1e) SCALES:
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I was looking through the Ohaus discussin board and found others with
simmilar problems. Their Tech support people presented 2 sollutions:
blow out fouling by dust on all moving parts and the Aluminum vane
that's dragging on the magnets should eithor be bent slightly so it
doesn't drag on the magnets or the scale should be moved arround to
different parts of the bench until a spot is found that is more/less
level so that the vane hangs straight down between the magnets and
doesn't contact them.
1f) RUBBER TUBING:
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1g) VACCUME ASPIRATORS AND PLUMBING FIXTURES:
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1h) CBL (Calculator Based Lab):
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links to CBL programs can be found here:
1i) of ringstands and latticeworks:
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latticeworks: (thanks to Tracy, again!)
If you use a clamping system tha will fit over 1/2 inch conduit, thinwall (technical name 1/2 inch EMT), here's a substitute for the very
expensive lattice work that most small labs don't have.
Go to hardware store and locate some 1/2 inch floor flanges. Then seek out the electrical department and find some 1/2 inch condiut box connectors.
Take off the ring that comes with, you don't need it for this. Test the fit of the box connector to the floor flange. Some brands screw in very
well, and some take considerable force. Find the easy ones if possible.
Now you have a unit with four screw holes that you can mount on the back of a bench. Mount several of those on 1 foot centers. Install 3 foot pieces
of 1/2 inch conduit (or whatever size you need) into these. You now have a row of sturdy verticle bars to clamp to. You can connect them with
horizontal bars, clamp all your equipment to this. Look through the other 1/2 inch conduit fittings and you will come up with other parts that clamp
right into the system.
You now have the equivalent of $500 + latticework.
1j) indicators
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indigo carmine - pH 11.6 blue to pH13- yellow
litmus cubes - pH 4.5 Red, and 8.3 blue.
logwood
Methyl orange - acid-base indicator. The pH range is 3.2-4.4
Phenol Red
Phenothaline - standard acid-base indicator. The pH range is 8.2 (colorless) to 10 (pink).
Thymol blue
Thymolphthalein - pH 8.8 colorless to pH 10.5 Blue
SUPPLIERS:
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(AS&S) American Science and Surplus http://www.sciplus.com
best prices I've found on most items, however what they have is spotty, with gaps in
both coverage and size ranges. I have gotten great deals on some items, that were
exactly what I was looking for. This isn't allways the case. In particular, I have
had really bad luck buying any type of tubing from them.
** UPDATED **
(BL) Bryant Laboratories, Inc. 1-800-367-3141, call for a price list,
will sell lab supplies and chemicals to individuals. Still waiting for the price list.
FOUND WEB PAGE! http://www.sirius.com/~bry_lab/PROD02.HTM they sell most chemicals
to individuals, call for possable smaller quantities and items not listed. fairly good
selection stocked,but by default they don't seem to sell less than 500g or 1 liter,
chem prices are reasonable considering quantities - worth it if you can split them w/
others. prices on labware/glassware vary from really good to bad - asperators were
$5.90 - 1/2 of the best price I found and 1/4 of the other one I found. OTOH, a 50 mL
buret was $69.00 - most expensive one I've found - once again, comparison shop!
(BS) Blue Spruce Biological Supply http://bluebio.com/ has some glassware/labware,
at OK prices.
(CA) Corolina Scientific http://www.carolina.com They don't sell chemicals to
individuals, but have labware/glassware - count on the expensive end of the
spectrum, but if you are unable to locate something elsewhere... Of special
note is their online "world of chemistry" and "teacher world" there they have
some great online tutorial type material!
** UPDATED **
(CLS) Chem Lab Supplies http://www.chemlab.com/ 1-714-630-XXXX, rings but i have yet to
get an answer. *UPDATE* Well, no wonder! The number I had was wrong. They have 2
numbers: 714-630-7902 and 310-973-2391. They have a HUGE selection of chemicals and sell
to individuals, the only catch is that they will not ship the really hazardus stuff, you
have to come in and buy it over the counter (like metalic sodium). Prices on chemicals
are pretty good, prices on glassware tend to be on the high end. Labware falls in the
middle. The are distributers for Fisher Scientific and VWR Scientific and have other
sources. They will track down special items and chemicals and generally give a discount
off of catalog prices (like Fisher and VWR, not their own). They will also break case
lots of glassware and sell individual items. The smallest quantity in their catalog
tends to be 4 oz, but they may sell smaller quantities. *WEB SITE FOUND!* see top of
listing.
(CS) The Chemistry Store http://www.chemistrystore.com/ very nice prices, selection
is some what limited and minimum quantities that must be ordered tend to be large.
Worth looking at, especially if you can split the order w/ others. Many of their
chemicals are oriented toward candle making and fragrances.
*UPDATE*
(HL) Hagenow Laboratories, Hagenow Laboratories Inc., 1302 Washington
Manitowoc, Wisconsin 54220 phones disconnected, but they are said to be mail order
only now. Has very good reputation for having the best prices and selling to
individuals. Catalog is supposed to cost $2.00. (thanks -tomv- for this listing)
name just changed to Elemental Scientific, P.O. Box 557, Appleton, WI 54912-0571 This place does sell chemicals in small quantities and the prices for
both chemicals and lab stuff were not bad. Now that there is a new owner the prices may go up.
(PT) Pyrotek http://www.pyrotek.org/ sells chems and glassware. better sellection
of both than name would imply. glassware is overpriced. min order for chems is
generally 1 pound. Good selection of common acids at reasonable prices. Their
focus seems to be pyrotechnics, but there is a lot of organic glassware on the site
and I knowticed a number of chemicals that are controlled - so be carefull what
you order from these people. You might be doing business w/ uncle sam...
** UPDATED **
(NS) NASCO http://www.nascofa.com/prod/Home good sellection, many
unique items. Prices on glassware are not great, but has some good deals on some
lab items. Also a number of lab items not available elsewhere. They list chemicals
but will only sell them to schools. Homeschool links/reviews say they will (thanks
Daphne for this listing) 1/8/01 - "only sell to schools" knowtice seems to have
gone away.
(HTT) Home Training Tools - http://www.hometrainingtools.com/
My new favorite source! Much better prices than (SF) on most items - aspirators
for $12 ((SF) wants $20), burets for $13 ((SF) wants $35)... they sell chemicals
in 1 oz and 30 mL quantities (sometimes less) and DO NOT have HAZMAT charges for
anything! The selection is fairly good, but limited. selection of labware and
glassware is decent, but somewhat limited - no where near what (TES) or (NS) has.
Actually they want $1 for HAZMAT if you buy 2+ chems with a certain prefix...(thanks
to Daphne again!)
(PPC) Perfect Parts Company - these are the people that used to have displays in
hobby stores. If you call them, (410-327-3522) they will send you a catalog and can
tell you if there is a retailer in your area. Their Mail order is all being done by
Stevens International (856-435-7645) now. Stevins is kind of a pain to deal with,
slow to respond and not that helpfull. In many cases you have to buy a bunch of an
item at the same time, like 12-36 of the same size stoppers at once, or 6 test tube
holders or 12 test tube brushes... Glassware is generally sold induvidually, but is
quite expensive. Stevins also acts as a distributor, and can tell you stores in your
area that they distribute to, that Perfect will not know about.
(RL) ROWLABS http://www.rowlabs-scientific.com/shop.html They sell chemicals to
individuals in 250 mL quantities and up. Covers many of the basics, but glassware
is on the expensive side.
(SF) Science Fair http://www.sciencefair.com - these people are great!, good prices
and responsive fast service. If they don't have it, they will try and find it for
you and act as an intermediary between you and the big chem supply companies that don't
sell to individules. I imagine that parts listed as comming from (PPC) could be gotten
from them for much less. (10/27/00 update - prices on most special order items tend to
be expensive! - distilling flask was $5 more than PPC) They will not sell chemicals to
individuals unless you come in, in person, or if you can get a business to receive the
chemicals that are drop shipped from the suppliers. They also do not know chemistry,
so can be hard to communicate w/ at times, when you are looking for specific items.
(TES) Tri-Ess Sciences, Inc. http://www.tri-esssciences.com/
huge selection of items I havn't been able to find elsewhere, oddly, a few common
things arn't listed. In many cases their prices are better than The Science Fair,
however they should be avoided for any glassware product as these are *VERY* expensive!
look at their pricelist, not their catalog.
X = allread obtained
>X = have one, could use more
Wanted list:
============
petri dishes, glass (6-12)
glass slides, a box or 2
slide cover glass, a box
X imersion oil
X brush, test tube - $0.95/$1.50(SF) <== probably best new
brush, flask/beaker - $7.50(SF) - think (TES) has one in the $3 range
X brush, baret - $1.30(TES) <== probably best new
X test tube rack - $8.00(SF)
test tube holder - $1.30(SF)
X tube clamp
tongs, flask, - $6.50(rubber jaw)(SF)
X beaker
X crucible. - $2.75(AS&S)
>X scoopula's - $3.75?(TES) <== want a few more!
X ETOH burner - $5.95(AS&S)
X burner wicks - $2.00/6(AS&S)
>X wire gauze - $1.99-2.25(SF)
tripod - $5.00(all sources)
ring stands - $10.00(SF) <== HIGHLY DESIRABLE! (2-3)
X suport rings w/ clamps - $2.99-$6.99(SF)
clamps - $11.00(SF) - (batches of clamps can often be found on ebay for
much less) -
>X baret (1-2),
double baret(1),
>X flask(1-2)
that kind of attachment clamp you sent before (several)
X heating triangle - $1.99(SF - spec order)
X thermometers - $3.50(SF) - a couple, partial immersion
X mortar and pestal - $7.50(AS&S)
X evaporating dish - $3.00/2(AS&S) - one
X watch glass - $0.60-$1.25(SF - spec order) - 2-3 diferent sizes
X connecting "Y" tube - $2.00/4(AS&S) - few
drying tube - "U" shaped (1)
X tubing, glass - $2.00/20(AS&S) - bunch
X tubing, rubber - $2.00/20ft-$2.50/20ft(AS&S) - 20 feet
>X tubing clamps, pinchcock - $0.50 - 3-4
****************************************************
* On rubber stoppers, I am getting some from another
* person, the sizes below are what he doesn't have.
* I offered him a simpler breakdown on costs: size
* "0"-"000" @ $0.15ea, "1"-"6" @ $0.25ea and "7"+
* @ $0.35 ea ## Jeremy Alley <jfa210s@yahoo.com> ##
****************************************************
rubber stoppers, size/quantity:
000(solid,1 hl, 2 hl)/2x ea - $0.09(TES)
00(solid,1 hl, 2 hl)/2x ea - $0.18(TES)
0(1 hl, 2 hl)/2x ea - $0.22(SF)
1(1 hl, 2 hl)/2x ea - $0.28(SF)
2(solid, 2 hl)/2x ea - $0.30/0.35(TES)
3(solid, 2 hl)/2x ea - $0.40(TES)/$0.44(SF)
4(solid, 2 hl)/2x ea - $0.50(TES)/$0.51(SF)
((ASS) has #4 stoppers at $2.00/8 that are
solid by default, but you can snip the "nipple"
and turn it into a 1 or 2 hole easily)
5(solid, 2 hl)/2x ea - $0.56(SF)
6(2 hl)/8x ea - $0.67(SF)
7/none
8(solid)/2x ea - $1.07(SF)
9(solid, 1 hl)/1 ea - $1.29(SF)
10+/none
X test tubes - $2.00/5(AS&S) and up...
X test tube rack, wood <== (SF)
X pipets - $7.50-$15.00/180-250(various sources)
pipet bulbs <== UNABLE TO LOCATE
eyedroppers $0.25(SF)
>X glass stir rods $1.00(SF)
rubber policeman $0.75(SF)
thistle tube - $1.75(ASS)
*************************************
* grad cyl - preferably w/ bump guard
cylinder, graduater
X 50 mL, - $5.75(SF)
X 100 mL - $4.00(AS&S) <== 25 and 10 mL would be welcome too! - 1 ea
retort <== UNABLE TO LOCATE (usually sell on ebay for $30) - (1)
X condenser - $10.00-$50.00 depending on size and type(SF)
funnel, buchner - 120+ mm (may have it covered...) (1) must be at least 120mm
>X melting point capillaries - could use more... - bunch
X aspirator filter pump (vaccume) - $20(SF) (1) <== HIGHLY DESIRABLE!
X filter paper (may have it covered)
cromatography paper <== UNABLE TO LOCATE - bunch
X litmus paper <== $0.75?(AS&S)
boiling stones <== UNABLE TO LOCATE - small jar full
stopcock greese <== UNABLE TO LOCATE - small jar full
wash bottle - a couple
I should have the following items covered, working out final
details w/ the seller this weekend (11/4/2000). Prices listed
are what I worked out w/ the seller.
========================
>X melting point capillaries (2x) - $6.00/100
X Thiele tube - $5.50
>X crucible - $0.75 (may not have lid, (SF) has lids)
>X tubing, heavy rubber - FREE
X6x stopcocks - FREE
X beakers 50 mL, - $6.50/6
X 100 mL,
X 150 mL,
X 250 mL(2x),
X 400 mL
X flask, volumetric - 25 mL, - $18.00/6
X 50 mL,
X 100 mL (2x),
X 250 mL,
X 500 mL
X flask, boiling - 250 mL - $1.75
X flask, filtering - 250 mL - $5.50
500 mL
X flask, erlenmyer - 250 mL (x2) - $3.00
X flask, distilling - 200mL - $5.00
X baret - 50-100 mL (2x) - $7.00ea
>X funnels, glass - 90 mm (2x) - $2.25ea
X funnel, buchner - 65mm - $5.00
X rubber stoppers - 0-000 @ $0.15, 1-6 @ $0.25, 7+ @ $0.35
X I'm getting 38 stoppers for $10.30 from him.
X filter paper - $2.00/100 sheetstangent - 14-3-2003 at 04:16
btw: I bought a lot of sep funnels on e-bay - 6 of them. more than I need. would be interested in trading some for a retort. other arraingements
possible.
-tPolverone - 14-3-2003 at 11:32
Tangent, are you the author of this document "LESSONS LEARNED IN OUTFITTING A HOME CHEM LAB V1.0?" I ask because it seems like it could use
updating. A number of the web links don't work. Still, thanks for the advice you've given. It can be tough to outfit a home lab if you
aren't used to businesses refusing to sell you their products (i.e. many lab/chemical suppliers not selling to individuals).tangent - 14-3-2003 at 12:12
yes - I wrote this.
-tBromicAcid - 20-3-2004 at 20:54
Tangent:
Quote:
pipet bulbs <== UNABLE TO LOCATE
Same here oddly enough, I can find the large round rubber ones at some places but I'm just looking for the ones that look like stiff uninflated
balloons for pasteur pipets. Any help on locating what should be an all too common item?
Dropper Bulbs for Pasteur Pipets
Z-Row - 23-3-2004 at 15:00
BromicAcid:
I think I know what you're looking for. You can find them at <a
href="https://www1.fishersci.com/Coupon?gid=46797&cid=1328">Fisher Scientific</a>, <a
href="http://www.vwrsp.com/catalog/product/index.cgi?object_id=0025546&class_id=5004014">VWR International</a>, <a
href="http://sargentwelch.com/product.asp?pn=WLS73135%5FEA">Sargent-Welch</a>(VWR's educational subsidiary), or <a
href="http://www.labsafety.com/store/product_group.asp?dept_id=31383&cat_prefix=4WA">Lab Safety Supply</a>.BromicAcid - 23-3-2004 at 15:56
Holy crap!!! Thank you from the bottom of my chemically controlled heart! That's exactly what I was looking for!Hexavalent - 28-12-2012 at 10:13
I've just come across this thread now, and feel as though some of the more recently-registered members would benefit from it.
Thread bumped.Gearhead_Shem_Tov - 28-12-2012 at 15:41
I've just come across this thread now, and feel as though some of the more recently-registered members would benefit from it.
Thread bumped.
Excellent idea. Thanks!Vargouille - 28-12-2012 at 16:02
With the obvious exception that many of the links are broken. Heck, one of them even goes to a Japanese blog that may or may not belong to a
hikikomori talking about callgirls.
