Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Playing with EGDN

Nevermore - 31-12-2005 at 02:08

Like every year for new year eve SWINM prepares his experiment
this is the only period of the day when He can test energetic matherials outside in quantities bigger than 1ml, and ppl won't even complain!

so let's see what do we have here:

14,6 ml of "paraflu" antifreeze fluid of unknown composition "for alu radiator".
40 grams of ammonium nitrate fertilizer grade, dried and crushed in powder.
60 ml of Sulfuric Acid, drain cleaner quality, 96%.
a kg of ice
thermomether
pipette and some glassware.

First of all, let's try to identify the antifreeze fluid:
it is blue, doesn't smell, is a thick syrupy fluid, and they say contains EG.
test: trying to boil it to check the boiling point.
result: it boils far over 140°C which is SWINM thermometer limit, and never boils actually just evap off, the condense is a clear oily liquid.

so let's start the synth.
SWINM puts 60ml of acid and AN into the freezer until they reach 0°C (don't let the acid freeze..)
then they get mixed into a clean becker surrounded with the melting ice.
The temp pops up to 20°C and little fumes get off, then cools down to 3°C again making it a thick slurry.
In the meanwhile the antifreeze lays in the freezer.
At this point the antifreeze gets added with a pipette, while the nitrating slurry is being mixed with the thermometer, the total addition of 14.6 ml takes around 20 minutes keeping the temp at 10°C (yes i know, SWINM is damn cautious with things he doesn't know),which are followed by another 25 minutes of "le the stuff do their job".

After this time the slurry is dumped in approx 600ml of ice cold water, which is continuosly stirred for 2 minutes then allowed to sit, in the next 5 minutes the EGDN collects on the bottom as a white oily blog, in quantity FAR over what was espected (considering the unknown composition and the normal loss).
SWINM uses a pipette to suck the EGDN out and dumps into a NaHCO3 saturated solution, some bubbles evolves then the EGDN sets on the bottom again, it gets sucked by the pipette and again into a fresh NaHCO3 solution until NEUTRAL.

The EGDN is pipetted again into a shallow dish in order to lose the water and become a clear fluid with a yellow highlight (okok, should be clear only, but damn it is neutral, maybe some dyes got nitrated too giving the yellow tone?)

Now SWINM has a burping vial of neutral EGDN, approx 15ml, laying into a becker filled with water.

Interesting stuff is that the blue color is lost during nitration, and the result is perfectly clear.

SWINM plans to set off the EGDN in batches of 5ml absorbed in dry AN in order not to attract too much interest, around midnight of tonite, so that it will be confused with the other fireworks, set off will be insured by a straw filled with SP, around 200mg of Silver Nitrate/Acetylide, and 300-500mg of MHN.

i think i found why the EGDN is yellowish, it shows a ph of 5 now, i think is still fine, since will be set off in a few hours, and i dun have enough time to dry it after a new neutralization..

Happy new year to everyone!

h0lx - 31-12-2005 at 02:59

No, this can't be the pH, what makes it yellow. Mine is the exact same color always and it is always neutral or slightly basic.

EDIT: fixed grammar

[Edited on 31-12-2005 by h0lx]

chemoleo - 31-12-2005 at 10:47

Nice. YOur picture is sideways I guess.

How sensitive is it, as bad as NG? Letting a drop fall onto the ground, will it make a bang?


ON the note of the dyes - yes it's probably just some triphenyl derivative, which gets nitrated to nitrobenzenes and TNP. Maybe that's where you get part of your colour from.

kABOOM! - 31-12-2005 at 12:57

How powerful is EGDN? Is it as powerful as NC?

Anyway, have a happy new year everyone!!!

Nevermore - 31-12-2005 at 12:58

hello
is far less sensitive than NG
no, letting a drop fall won't set it off, it doesn't even with NG.
not even from a tall building.
i've been able to set off NG only by hammering it really bad on a steel plate..
no other ways..
drop it and set it off is a legend i suppose, or just could happen with NG at PH 1 or semifrozen...
and has about the same power of NG from what i read, NC can't be compared to any of them..
just easier to set off and less sensitive..
BUT volatile.



[Modificato il 31/12/2005 da Nevermore]

kABOOM! - 31-12-2005 at 14:51

could it be added to Nitromethane to become more shock sensitive? I'm thinking of a supercharged form of PLX, which really doesn't need any real supercharging ;)

...just thinking.

Nevermore - 1-1-2006 at 01:15

actually i think is a little wasting to sensitive NM with EGDN, being NM effectively sensitized by H2SO4 or epoxy hardener...
but i don't know if the two liquids are miscible, i suppose yes.

Chris The Great - 1-1-2006 at 03:35

EGDN is more powerful than nitro.

Lead block 650cm3, brisance 185% TNT, perfect O balance:

C2H4N2O6 -> 2CO2 + 2H2O + N2

Nevermore - 1-1-2006 at 03:59

7ml of EGDN absorbed on 20g of AN into a coffee plastic glass
ignited by a cap made with 500mg MHN + 200mg Double salts
made a loud sharp boom and an orange fireball
the result were a round hole on the concrete
approx 8cm radius parabolic shaped with the center deep around 3cm.
pretty powerful considering that the boom was much less than i expected!

Deceitful_Frank - 1-1-2006 at 09:39

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris The Great
EGDN is more powerful than nitro.

Lead block 650cm3, brisance 185% TNT, perfect O balance:

C2H4N2O6 -> 2CO2 + 2H2O + N2


I think it all depends on how you define power and we all know theres alot more to it than lead block expansion (I dont know where you got 650cm3 from but sounds a little exaggerated to me... 600 is more the figure) and perfect oxygen balance.

Plus "185% TNT" means nothing as far as I can see unless you would like to elaborate on wether you mean by mass or by bulk, velocity or gas expansion?

If you offered me a 10Kg of TNT or the same mass/volume of EGDN to do a blasting job I'd go for the TNT pretty much every time. Although EGDN may be more "powerful", TNT is ALOT more usable.

EGDN does interest me and after sourcing all the necessary chems, I have yet to make it. I have synthesised NG many times and have perfected my process to get 1.82g dry neutral NG from every gram of glycerol. I'd probably use a very similar process whilst minimizing loss of yeild through acid and water dissolution wherever possible but its what I would do with it when made thats been putting me off.

Due to its volatilty the same process that I use to make blasting gelatine (no loss of velocity over the pure nitric ester and incorporation of microbubbles to lower the density and ensure high velocity detonation) using distilled acetone as a solvent would result in MAJOR losses in the drying process that you just dont get when using NG.

I dont want to just absorb it into something shit like AN as then i may as well just stick to kinepack! Plus to fire it pure as a liquid and at >7000m/s you need confinement in steel and/or a HUGE blasting cap... (80g TNP) according to urbanski/federoff though they did state 8400m/s IIRC!

Ant ideas on how to make this no doubt excellent explosive usable and easy to initiate fully?

Rosco Bodine - 1-1-2006 at 10:48

It could be worthwhile to experiment to see what
sort of potential solvent / plasticizing / densifying
properties the EGDN may have with things like
R-salt or RDX , or the nitrated polyols like MHN or
inositol hexanitrate or even PETN or ETN . Some
interesting mixtures might result which could have
the property of partially melting upon gentle heating
and then setting solid on cooling to a dense and
highly brisant composite having easy initiation .

ADP - 1-1-2006 at 10:53

Nevermore I'm not sure what kind of antifreeze you may have used but I believe that many kinds of antifreeze not only contain ethylene glycol and a dye but also diethylene glycol.

This means perhaps not only is your product ethylene glycol dinitrate, but it could also contain diethylene glycol dinitrate which has similar properties and is misible with the former, while being insoluble in water.

Firstly is anyone aware of a method to separate the two via solubilites and chemically? (not distillation). I will soon obtain samples of both diethylene g. and ethylene g, in which I plan to nitrate both and examine similaries and differences.

FYI: Ethylene Glycol: BP: 197dC with formula C2H6O2 or HO-CH2-CH2-OH, while
Diethylene Glycol: BP: 245dC with formula C4H10O3 or HO-CH2-CH2-O-CH2-CH2-OH (to better reflect structure).

12AX7 - 1-1-2006 at 12:35

Possibly DG is more lipophilic so a light solvent such as mineral spirits could be shaken to dissolve it? If it takes some EG with, an addition of water might break that.

Just guessing...

Tim

Chris The Great - 1-1-2006 at 20:22

Quote:
Originally posted by Deceitful_Frank
I think it all depends on how you define power and we all know theres alot more to it than lead block expansion (I dont know where you got 650cm3 from but sounds a little exaggerated to me... 600 is more the figure) and perfect oxygen balance.

Plus "185% TNT" means nothing as far as I can see unless you would like to elaborate on wether you mean by mass or by bulk, velocity or gas expansion?


Chemistry and Technology of Explosives, vol 2 for the lead block.

The 185% TNT is for the brisance, which is a measure of the shattering effect and so velocity, gas expansion etc has nothing to do with it. It's measured by mass, like most tests. I beleive the 185% of TNT was determined by firing 100g EGDN on top of a lead cylinder and measuring the compression.

Nevermore - 6-1-2006 at 05:19

then being EGDN far less dense than NG could in part explain the effect...

Distillation of Ethylene Glycol from Antifreeze

ADP - 8-1-2006 at 18:11

I performed a distillation of antifreeze at 197dC (Ethylene Glycol's BP) and had wonderful results. The antfreeze had EG and DEG (a small amount I believe) in it.


I used a retort as it is easy to use and works great for the job.


Boiling at 197 degrees


After 2 hours or so, the final yield was 110ml (this pic shows after about 1.5hours)


Here is the final look at a bottle of antifreeze and a bottle of EG

In conclusion, distillation is very simple and easy and good to do if purity is of importance. The resultant product is very pure.

Rosco Bodine - 8-1-2006 at 23:04

The distilled product from antifreeze may have some
water in it , and may need to be dried before nitration .

A density measurement can be done and the results
compared with the chart attached , to get an idea of
the purity .

Attachment: glycol solutions density chart.pdf (348kB)
This file has been downloaded 1688 times

oneup - 23-1-2006 at 12:07

I just did the synthesis of EGDN, and my experience differs somewhat from yours, nevermore.
Everything is the same UNTIL i drop the still white EGDN in carbonate solution, it loses it's white color and becomes almost invisible as a colorless blob on the bottom of my vessle. I used 10mL EG and got 9mL EGDN, but some got lost becouse I didn't wait long enough for all the EGDN to settle to the bottom. I haven't tested it yet becouse I ran out of acetone peroxide to detonate it but I will compare it to nitroglycerin and post the results.

ordenblitz - 23-1-2006 at 18:28

Say... how did "someone who is not you", get a picture of something you did not make right after you didn't make it?

I'll bet the man won't ever figure out this type of clever subterfuge!

h0lx - 23-1-2006 at 23:12

I ran out of AN and I want to make some more of EGDN. Using KNO3. So I calculated the ractants to use and the numbers didn't seem correct. I calculated as 1 mol of MEG, 2 mol of KNO3, 4 mol of H2SO4(2 mol for forming nitric acid and 2 for absorbing 2 moles of water)

I got (rounded, decimoles)
13,2 mls of MEG(15,2g)
20g of KNO3
23,1 ml of H2SO4(39,8g)

Could someone correct me?

[Edited on 24-1-2006 by h0lx]

Boomer - 24-1-2006 at 00:04

C = 12, H = 1, N = 14, O = 16, K=101. Therefore 1 mol EG ( C2H4(OH)2) = 62g, KNO3 weighs 101g, sulfuric 98g.
15.2 g = 0.245 mol EG needs 0.49 mol = 49.5g KNO3. Use 40-50% excess for a nitrate/acid nitration.
Plus 4 x 0.245 = 0.98 mol (96g) SA of 100%. More to absorb its own water if it is only 96%.
Plus some excess again perhaps, but it absorbs more than a mol of water.

Try 15ml + 30g + 50ml for a start. This is the minimum amount of sulfuric, but too much dissolves the product.

h0lx - 24-1-2006 at 05:20

I will try with 30ml + 60g + 120ml today as my SA is only 94% and KN will dissolve more easily. I had calculated the MEG mass wron, I Calculated EGDN's

rot - 26-1-2006 at 13:51

Is EGDN more powerfull than Nitroglycerin or not? nitroglycerin has a VoD of 7700m/s i know but some say EGDN vod is <7300, some say it's 8000.

Boomer - 27-1-2006 at 00:17

It has slightly more energy content due to perfect OB, but less brisance and VoD due to lower density. It is 'thinner' than NG and therefore transmits detonation easier.
That is why some people found higher brisance/speed values for it. If you manage to get NG going full steam, it beats EGDN (except for energy as said, but a few percent theoretical heaving power are of no concern for someone using these comps pure).

blank - 13-3-2006 at 21:24

Last week I came across over 7L of industrial grade EG. Of course I then decided to make some EGDN.

I used:
300g H2SO4
100g NH4NO3
20G Ethylene Glycol

I premixed acid and AN and heated a bit to get some good thin acids. I cooled all chems in my freezer to 10ºC or under. I thin placed that acids in my ice bath and added the EG while stirring over a period of 20 min. I then let it sit for 20 more minutes with occasional stirring. During the nitration, the temp of the nitration bath stayed well under 20ºC. After nitration, I poured it into 1 L of cold water and stirred. The problem is that I had no bottom layer of EGDN. Instead I have some kind of yellowish precipitate. Some of it floats, some sinks. I poured a few ml into a seperate container and some droplets of EGDN formed. The droplets are reddish due to dyes in my sulfuric acid. I neutralized what I had and I am drying it in my dessicator right now. I will test it once dry. Does anyone know how to get the rest of my EGDN to seperate from the water and acid? It is sitting in an ice bath right now, I notice that droplets are slowly forming. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to decant off the acid waste and have some good EGDN. If not, does anyone know what I could do? Help is appreciated

blank - 15-3-2006 at 14:46

I see it is seperating out over time.

Baadpyro - 17-9-2011 at 02:44

Is it possible to make Blasting geltatin form EGDN, and NC ?
Is it safe?

hissingnoise - 17-9-2011 at 04:42

EDGN dissolves NC more readily, and at lower temperature, than does NGl but homemade NC (difficult to fully stabilise) will produce a dangerous, unstable gelatine!
High risk --- losing body parts --- no fun at all . . .


Ral123 - 22-6-2012 at 12:37

http://imageshack.us/g/861/dsc00129tq.jpg/
here are pictures of my egdn test. Mini test tube of the stuff initiated by about 0,5g Pb(N3)2. It was somewhat louder then what I expected, louder then the same volume of rdx. The wooden piece didn't receive any shrapnel. There were three tiny holes in the can(may be from the azide part). If the charge wasn't cylindrical, and was shorter the steel would have been penetrated. The ng guys can't make their stuff go high order in such small scale (unless it's some type of rdx dynamite) :D

QHarryQ - 22-6-2012 at 18:25

EGDN should have been abadoned because of the violent cardinal toxicity and high volatility.Campared with NG,this stuff is somewhat more unsensitive,but it sucks afterall.

Ral123 - 22-6-2012 at 21:28

FIrst egdn is the easiest high RE HE. You have to filter, dry and recrystallize solids. The ng doesn't work well in liquid form unless larger amounts, well confined and the detonator is like 2g+ of rdx. Trying to hammer test is very difficult, the thing doesn't go off at all sometimes, rdx is much easier to explode with a hammer. If you leave non neutralized ng for a while it becomes so sensitive, that it explodes when you let one drop fall from like 1m. I've had major runaway with 50ml egdn completed, and it didn't go off. I think that for a sealed container, egdn makes much more stable, predictable, safe choice.

Goorlap - 24-6-2012 at 13:57

Most liquid explosives are dangerous anyway. You can't store them as a loose powder, which is much safer.

Ral123 - 25-6-2012 at 02:59

You sound like a man who hasn't tried to detonate egdn on purpose. It's amolst mission imposible without primary. Loose rdx powder can catch fire withouth much difficulty and can be exploded with a hummer. I can throw plastic bottle with egdn out of like 10-th floor and still bet it wont go off. Well purified egdn can be extremaly stable in the freezer IMO. I just can't see any danger of storing well made secondary.

Kalium - 26-6-2012 at 15:38

The main issue I have with EGDN is the very high level of volatility. The low viscosity is good and so is the perfect oxygen balance.

Ral123 - 27-6-2012 at 02:49

And isn't egdn the best explosive to stuff in a pet bottle? It's not too great for dynamites that would stand in open. Egdn and it's compositions can take impacts from weights falling from twice the length that detonates ng. I challange you forum, tell me cheaper and more convinient stuff for a high RE explosion withouth corosive and sensitive binary stuff.

Adas - 27-6-2012 at 04:04

Isn't PGDN somewhat safer and less volatile? The oxygen balance is worse, maybe the power too, but it is less toxic and less sensitive, AFAIK.

Ral123 - 27-6-2012 at 04:43

Yeah, mix egdn with inerts and it's same s*t. PGDN is with density of 1.2, your AN:NM is more powerfull then that. I'm taking of cheap, safe convinent way to fill 200ml container with high RE explosive. EGDN-7390j/g, RDX-5700j/g, PETN-6400j/g.

Ral123 - 2-7-2012 at 10:37

5ml test of that wonderful liquid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XAvoWphC38&feature=youtu...
I begin to wonder if it's more powerful(volume basis) then very tightly packed RDX. I think it's at least noisier :D

[Edited on 2-7-2012 by Ral123]

dangerous amateur - 2-7-2012 at 11:19

I dont mean to be offensive, but your videos suck. Why not use such a thing here
http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00FCmEKVpnfaub/Flexible-T...

Fix the camera near the spot and take proper cover. Such brick pieces can be nasty.



Quote:

some EGDN and a visko


No primary?

And if there was one, how about separating maincharge and cap? There must have been about 7g of EGDN. Combined with a fixed primary this is pretty dangerous.

Ral123 - 3-7-2012 at 13:41

I know my videos suck, they are not so much for entertainment, but so people without experience with certain materials can get an idea what are we posting so much about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELXmCqirmQ0&feature=plcp

Kalium - 5-7-2012 at 20:32

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
http://imageshack.us/g/861/dsc00129tq.jpg/
here are pictures of my egdn test. Mini test tube of the stuff initiated by about 0,5g Pb(N3)2. It was somewhat louder then what I expected, louder then the same volume of rdx. The wooden piece didn't receive any shrapnel. There were three tiny holes in the can(may be from the azide part). If the charge wasn't cylindrical, and was shorter the steel would have been penetrated. The ng guys can't make their stuff go high order in such small scale (unless it's some type of rdx dynamite) :D

Did you extract your NaN3 from an airbag? If so, how did you do it? I'm seeing a lot of conflicting information on the Internet.

Ral123 - 5-7-2012 at 21:42

I bought it dirt cheap (20$-100g) pure analytical from a man who sells old lab reagents. It was in tin can like it's corn or something :D With very little NaN3 (like a gram) you'll be able to make a lot of ETN blast caps. Isn't the method ammonia->molten sodium->nitrous oxide gone give a little NaN3? He also sells red phosphorus I'm not sure how much should I give, because I don't need it much, just wana buy before it's gone.

Kalium - 6-7-2012 at 02:04

That sounds like a great deal! I suppose I could try to synthesise it (there's no way I could buy it in my country) but I'd rather buy an airbag online; they go for as little as $20 in the local area. Apparently they contain a mixture of potassium nitrate and sodium azide. After consulting Wikipedia, an infallible source, I saw that NaN3 is quite soluble in alcohol but KNO3 is not. Sounds like a valid approach...
I can't really help you with the red phosphorous since I don't know what it's for. It's not particularly rare, is it?
I'm getting quite a bit off-topic, aren't I?

Ral123 - 6-7-2012 at 02:52

Can't you buy online? The phosphorus is no big deal(only a mile long topic for it's synth and people making ridiculous setups to get few grams), used for meth, makes the most op napalm, nothing interesting there :D and it's one of the most efficient smoke producers. If the azide is mixed with KNO3, the KNO3 shouldn't be much, I guess it can be used without separation. Btw I think pretty much the same hummer blow is required for explode RDX-EGDN as for RDX only. That means that nice pure EGDN on paper is pretty much as safe as C4? Can someone give me example of a superior explosive to be used in liquid form?

Kalium - 6-7-2012 at 06:03

Don't forget that mixing EGDN with a powder reduces its sensitivity; take dynamite as a rough example. C4 is even more safe than pure RDX because of the inert plasticisers. EGDN certainly isn't as safe as C4 or RDX. That's not to say it's unsafe, I still recommend it. PGDN is slightly less sensitive than EGDN and PG is easier to find than EG but it isn't suitable for mixing with RDX because RDX has a highly negative OB. If I were you I'd make a RDX/NG (80:20) plastic explosive that has a better OB than if you used the other two liquid explosives.
The only online store I found that sells sodium azide to the general public is based in America, so that's a no-go for me. Besides, it was a 0.5% aqueous solution, so I would be getting 2.5g out of each 500ml bottle. :(
I don't know why I said that NaN3 is soluble in alcohol... I suppose that KNO3 can remain in the solution for silver azide synthesis since it would just remain there in the form of spectator ions. I remember seeing some pictures on NitricSynth's forum that showed the chemicals in an airbag in the form of red disks. I bet most of the contaminants can just be filtered out.
Wait, would some potassium azide be produced as well? Could someone confirm this?

[Edited on 6-7-2012 by Kalium]

Ral123 - 6-7-2012 at 20:23

I'm not sure if you're aware of the energy density of pgdn. RDX is way less safe then C4. I mix the EGDN with RDX so I actually have a chance of detonating it with a hummer. RDX explodes muuch easier then EGDN on paper. And with enough lead nitrate, you shouldn't worry about KN3.

SM2 - 24-7-2012 at 11:34

There is a pretty easy synth of sodium azide in CIA, Field Expedient methods of Explosive Prep.

plante1999 - 24-7-2012 at 11:38

Quote: Originally posted by Ral123  
I mix the EGDN with RDX so I actually have a chance of detonating it with a hummer. RDX explodes muuch easier then EGDN on paper.


With an hummer, I see...

[Edited on 24-7-2012 by plante1999]

Fantasma4500 - 20-9-2013 at 07:49

well.. sorry for reviving this old thread, but SM2, what you mean.. is this something available, a honey pot (attracts suspicious persons, IP's logged etc) or misinformation?
is it available or what? that sounds interesting, ofcourse..

testimento - 7-1-2014 at 23:28

Can EGDN be prepared with WFNA without sulfuric intervention?

Pard - 7-1-2014 at 23:58

Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
well.. sorry for reviving this old thread, but SM2, what you mean.. is this something available, a honey pot (attracts suspicious persons, IP's logged etc) or misinformation?
is it available or what? that sounds interesting, ofcourse..


No, they're just of the kind of manuals available on pdf sites and other type anarchist sites. Sadly they were repurposed by far end polticals. Groups like Paladin Press printed them.

Ral123 - 8-1-2014 at 00:22

Quote: Originally posted by testimento  
Can EGDN be prepared with WFNA without sulfuric intervention?

You'll get mononitrate mostly.