Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Golden Liquid

Golden Liquid

MrHomeScientist - 23-11-2014 at 18:14

I have a project in mind where I'd like to create a golden-colored liquid, or at least something that simulates one. My girlfriend is big into the Harry Potter books, and I wanted to use this golden liquid to fill a small glass bottle pendant as a gift for her. The book describes it as resembling molten gold, so that's what I'm going for. Any ideas for making a liquid with a nice golden color? Preferably not a precipitate, like lead iodide, since this would just settle out.

An alternative would be to make a gold mirror, analogous to the classic 'silver mirror' experiment (Nurdrage's video on it here ). I haven't found any references to creating a golden mirror, though. Anyone know how to do that?

Metacelsus - 23-11-2014 at 18:25

I have an idea: a solution of an alkyl xanthic disulfide or thioanhydride. Those have a nice golden color, and if you can get carbon disulfide are pretty easy to make. (Look in the prepublications section for my paper on them.)

Don't let her drink it, though.

elementcollector1 - 23-11-2014 at 18:28

Wasn't there something like this in Pretty Pictures? Some ammonium complex?

Oscilllator - 23-11-2014 at 19:13

Gold coatings can be done at home using a sputtering process (high temperatures and vacuums) but it is quite difficult for the amateur. Making an opaque golden liquid will probably involve a suspension of some kind preferably a colloid. Suspending finely powdered pyrite comes to mind, however getting such a fine powder would be very difficult with solely mechanical grinding.

elementcollector1 - 23-11-2014 at 19:54

Found it!
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14644&...
Very bottom of the page, apparently an ammonium iron phosphate suspension.
Although I don't imagine you'd get any luckier from drinking the stuff...

MrHomeScientist - 23-11-2014 at 20:11

Wow that ferrous ammonium phosphate looks gorgeous! That's exactly what I'm going for. It seems like that might settle out eventually, though. I'll have to try making it - I found a paper that states it's made simply with iron powder, phosphoric acid, and ammonia. They state it is 'greyish-green' though. They also use a hilarious acronym for the compound.

I'll look for your writeup as well Cheddite. Thanks for the replies so far.

diddi - 23-11-2014 at 20:55

@ Oscilllator
pyrite looks great as a crystal and would be perfect as fake gold, but it has a black streak, so the powder will be like heavy charcoal. it stains everything and makes a real mess in the lapidary workroom.

j_sum1 - 23-11-2014 at 22:44

Chloroauric acid wasn't good enough? It has the advantage of actually being gold!

Metacelsus - 24-11-2014 at 09:29

Does it have to be opaque?

Zyklon-A - 24-11-2014 at 09:56

Um cesium, duh!

Perhaps something could be added to it to keep it liquid at an even lower temperature than the pure stuff at 28.5 °C, 83.3 °F. It's actually liquid and would never settle out. Isolating it will be project to say the least.

[Edited on 24-11-2014 by Zyklon-A]

HgDinis25 - 24-11-2014 at 12:43

Quote: Originally posted by Zyklon-A

Um cesium, duh!

Suddenly the bottle drops to the ground. 100€ woth of Caesium having fun with Oxygen...
Suddenly the bottle breaks near water. 100€ woth of Caesium happily destroying the girl's face...

Zyklon-A - 24-11-2014 at 18:06

Well I was sorta joking, however it is doable, and if she is informed of the risks and is responsible I doubt accidents will happen. Additionally, the ampule could be stored in a glass box for extra safety, and if kids are around, it should obviously be out of reach and on a shelf that can't fall down.

bob800 - 24-11-2014 at 18:13

This: http://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/KIO3+HCl/ind... ! The color was so striking that I still remember doing the experiment years ago...

(woelen's pic)

[Edited on 25-11-2014 by bob800]

Amos - 24-11-2014 at 18:34

You could suspend the FAP(ha) in a yellow solution of some other compound to make it more like actual gold, and maybe you could look into some surfactants to keep it all suspended.

elementcollector1 - 24-11-2014 at 19:55

I'm actually very interested to see these results - wouldn't mind some Felix Felicis of my own...

Amos - 24-11-2014 at 20:42

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

Wow that ferrous ammonium phosphate looks gorgeous!

Watching your videos for some time, seeing your signature "gorgeous!" always makes me giggle. They really are well-made, though.

Jylliana - 24-11-2014 at 23:10

It's not exactly chemistry, but mixing (clear) glue with glittery golden nailpolish or yellow foodcolouring makes a nice Felix Felicis-like substance.

These vials would go nice with it, I think

bismuthate - 25-11-2014 at 04:17

What do you think of making a very concentrated solution of silver nanoparticles? They would never settle

j_sum1 - 25-11-2014 at 04:26

Well, my initial thought was gold nanoparticles but then it wouldn't appear golden.
What colour do silver nanoparticles appear?

bismuthate - 25-11-2014 at 04:59

Many colors, but golden is one of them. Gold nanoparticles can appear silver.
Using honey as a liquid for suspensions may work

MrHomeScientist - 25-11-2014 at 07:03

I'm glad this has spawned lots of good discussion!

Cesium seems rather hazardous for something meant to be worn around the neck

Points for actually being a golden liquid though!

That picture looks really nice too. Another great experiment by Woelen that I'll have to try. Also a little too hazardous for my use, though. Perhaps I could make something she'd display on a bookshelf instead.

Jylliana those are actually the exact vials I was looking at for the project. I was searching eBay for different small vials for another purpose and ran across those, and their shape is actually what gave me this idea.

Silver nanoparticles are also interesting but require materials I don't think will be simple to get (sodium borohydride). I found a very interesting and well made video about silver 'nanoprisms' while looking around: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agD5jfXua-o

Quote: Originally posted by No Tears Only Dreams Now

Watching your videos for some time, seeing your signature "gorgeous!" always makes me giggle. They really are well-made, though.

I didn't realize I had a signature mannerism, that's funny

Keep 'em coming! So far 'FAP' is the front runner - looks great and seems simple to synthesize. Yellow glue would be pretty simple too, and would be thick enough to not settle out. So many things to try!

bismuthate - 25-11-2014 at 07:42

Try using sodium citrate instead of
Borohydride.

jock88 - 25-11-2014 at 10:32

If you purchase 'gold paint' in a paint shop it will make quite nice golden liquid when mixed with white spirits.
It is very fine brass I believe, how exactly it's made is protected.
The paint I speak of is sold as two parts in a small cardboard box.

Mabus - 25-11-2014 at 10:42

Titanium nitride coatings have a gold-like color and it's safe. Though I'm not sure if a TiN suspension has the same color.

phlogiston - 25-11-2014 at 11:14

Not practical in the slightest, but a liquid with a golden appearance can be made by dissolving an alkali metal in liquid ammonia. The concentration needs to be high enough (>3M) or it will appear blue.

[Edited on 25-11-2014 by phlogiston]

careysub - 25-11-2014 at 11:44

A Felix Felis pendant would be nifty gift for my wife as well (big Rowling fan).

I am looking at this technique:

http://propnomicon.blogspot.com/2010/06/making-magic-potion....

which is powdered mica suspended in a colored fluid. It appears that a good gold color can be had from tinting yellow food coloring with a bit of brown food coloring.

If you have no brown food coloring red, yellow, and blue make brown - so then go heavy on the yellow to golden it up. I am also thinking of adding glycerin to thicken it if that seems to make a good effect.

I see that many colors of dyed mica are available as well. I ordered some gold mica from eBay.

[Edited on 25-11-2014 by careysub]

MrHomeScientist - 25-11-2014 at 12:04

Also a good idea! Though it does settle over time. I wonder how quickly? Mixing it into a thicker liquid should help.

I just had a thought: what about mixing the colorants (whatever they may be) in with clear casting acrylic? That would lock the particles in place at the cost of it not really being a 'potion' any more, but would still have the desired appearance.

Amos - 25-11-2014 at 13:56

Depending on how fine the particles are, settling might not be an issue. This is meant to be worn on a moving person, not sat on a shelf.

Oh, and while it may not be all that shiny, you can add excess(not sure what the ratio or reaction is) ascorbic acid to a solution of copper sulfate and heat it to form a yellow complex. Adding dilute sodium hydroxide solution to the yellow complex precipitates golden-yellow hydrous copper(I) oxide, which can be seen in suspension in the second picture here: http://imgur.com/a/3Mjq4

The precipitate is so fine that it takes several hours to settle again. It can't be dried or allowed to stay in the air long, or it will turn brown. But that sample pictured has been in a vial for months, so it's stable there.

[Edited on 11-25-2014 by No Tears Only Dreams Now]

bismuthate - 25-11-2014 at 14:15

I wonder if there are any liquid gold alloys. Galinstan and gold perhaps?

Or you could give your girlfriend NaK. Seems safe

[Edited on 25-11-2014 by bismuthate]

j_sum1 - 25-11-2014 at 14:29

Good idea. I am going to look up galinstan copper when I get a chance. That could be really cool if it worked.
J.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 25-11-2014 at 15:32

Quote: Originally posted by jock88

If you purchase 'gold paint' in a paint shop it will make quite nice golden liquid when mixed with white spirits.
It is very fine brass I believe, how exactly it's made is protected.

It's not protected. They dry mill brass with stearic acid as a lubricant.

If you're interested, what you're going to want to look up is gold-bronze, as that's generally how the pigment is known.

aga - 25-11-2014 at 15:47

Faced with a gold-coloured thing or actual slabs of Gold, i know which my wife would prefer.

She has horses, so maybe horses eat Gold.

Oh. I remember now. Yes they do, rapidly.

careysub - 25-11-2014 at 15:49

While we are discussing possible gold alloys in connection with popular entertainments - I thought I might mention the scene in Season 1 of Game of Thrones where Daenerys's brother Viserys got his head dunked in molten gold.

When I saw that, I felt that the gold melted way to fast, and wasn't realistically hot enough - gold melts at 1064 C which is a cherry red glow, and the molten metal was not glowing.

But then I looked up what the lowest melting point gold alloy was, and was surprised to find that 80% Au/20% Sn (basically making it "gold bronze") is a eutectic alloy with a melting point of only 280°C!

It is sold as gold solder for electrical applications.

I don't know if anyone in the ancient world made this alloy, but they easily could have. It is hard and brittle, but it can be used to make cast objects.

bismuthate - 25-11-2014 at 15:50

aga, words cannot describe how drunk you are. Write your thoughts down and laugh at them later.

aga - 25-11-2014 at 15:58

In the context, there are Chemistries other than Academic at play.

Jylliana - 8-12-2014 at 02:42

I'm wondering, MrHomeScientist, what did you go for in the end? So many suggestions and I'm curious, and I kinda demand a photo

MrHomeScientist - 8-12-2014 at 10:19

No progress yet I'm afraid. Very busy week and weekend for work. I'm hoping to have something together by her birthday next month or Valentine's day!

MrHomeScientist - 9-2-2015 at 07:05

Well a lot of things have happened in the interim, so I haven't been able to devote the time I wanted to this project. I attempted to make ferrous ammonium phosphate last night, and it didn't turn out anywhere near as pretty as the picture (last post on this thread: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14644&... ).

(Disclaimer: Very experimental below, so I didn't measure anything.)
My first attempt was done by first dissolving iron powder in phosphoric acid, then dropping in concentrated ammonia solution. This formed a greenish grey precipitate. I then tried oxidizing the iron to produce a different color (new test tube) - I added 3% hydrogen peroxide after dissolving the iron, heated to boiling to decompose any extra peroxide, then added the ammonia. This produced a dull yellow powdery precipitate. Closer, but still nowhere near as nice.

So it appears that platedish29's compound is ferric, rather than ferrous, and he must have made it differently. I'm going to try heating to see if anything dissolves and precipitates into glittery plates upon cooling, ala the golden rain demo, but I don't really expect that to pan out. If anyone knows of a better way to make this compound, I'm all ears!

[Edited on 2-9-2015 by MrHomeScientist]

blogfast25 - 9-2-2015 at 11:34

Quote: Originally posted by MrHomeScientist

So it appears that platedish29's compound is ferric, rather than ferrous, and he must have made it differently. I'm going to try heating to see if anything dissolves and precipitates into glittery plates upon cooling, ala the golden rain demo, but I don't really expect that to pan out. If anyone knows of a better way to make this compound, I'm all ears!

I'm not sure how you could have concluded the golden platelets could have been anything other than ferric in nature.

I've obtained something quite similar from concentrated Fe2(SO4)3 solutions. pH control is crucial here, as is probably overall ionic strength of the solution.

But definitely not easy to obtain...

Eddygp - 10-2-2015 at 14:23

I'm thinking about a specific concentration of iron(III) chloride

numos - 14-4-2016 at 18:31

Sorry to revive an old thread, but would it be possible to create a gold-mercury amalgam? Something like this? I'm interested as most of the suggestions create solutions and watery type results, to create something more liquid metalish, with high surface tension and almost no adhesion, this seems viable.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GguoKun9wbU/maxresdefault.jpg

elementcollector1 - 15-4-2016 at 05:26

Quote: Originally posted by numos

Sorry to revive an old thread, but would it be possible to create a gold-mercury amalgam? Something like this? I'm interested as most of the suggestions create solutions and watery type results, to create something more liquid metalish, with high surface tension and almost no adhesion, this seems viable.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GguoKun9wbU/maxresdefault.jpg

Well, yes, but then you'd have to deal with mercury. Not to mention finding enough gold to make a good color difference. Not sure how much it takes, or if the color scales proportionally to the concentration.

This isn't a bad idea, if you already have the above and something to ampoule it in. It would certainly make for a more permanent and 'golden' specimen.

pneumatician - 5-5-2016 at 07:08

good?

elementcollector1 - 5-5-2016 at 07:43

That's yellow, not golden...

pneumatician - 5-5-2016 at 17:22

is your pro monitor corrected with a hardware color calibration device???

is your icc profile loaded? the light in the room is the appropriate??

if all ok, don't be ludicrous, the pic is shot with a cheap mobile phone