Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Should the posts of post whores and other irrelevent posts be deleted from the forum?

BromicAcid - 7-9-2005 at 19:19

When I first started at this forum there was this understanding that unless something was both relevant and new that there was no reason to make a post about it. I mean, if you're not adding anything to the topic content then there is no reason to make a post to it. One-line quips were nearly unheard of. There were standards that we had, nearly 60% of our registered populace had posted and most of those posts, even from the people that only made one or two were of some measurable quality. But there was always the option not to post at all. Lately though I feel this forum quality has been slipping, especially from what I believe is just run of the mill post whoring, something this community just didn't suffer from to this extent ever before.

In addition to this post whoring there is also a somewhat sudden increase in the amount of off topic conversation in threads, the phosphorus thread for one had several posts in a row, that although relating to phosphorous, were irrelevant to its production. The thread on organisms growing at unusual concentrations degraded into talk of silicon based life forms breathing fluorine and there are numerous other less extreme examples where two or three topics in a row are irrelevant to the conversation. And then there are all of these freaking one-liner replies that are just ridiculous and often singling out a little irrelevant topic in the post before to dwell on, like: “…the sulfuric acid was distilling at a manageable rate but suddenly there was some flash boiling so I had to shut things down.” Then someone would post a follow up: “At least you didn’t get burned :D” It’s just ridiculous.

These things happen, things go off topic and occasionally we all feel the need to post one-liners. But as I said these events have been increasing as of late and if something doesn’t happen soon I feel this forum will forever deteriorate.

Or little quips like:
Quote:
Explain this to me, you are writing in a perchloric acid thread that you are concerned about barium toxicity? I'm missing something here! LOL :)

Idunno, this pretty well sums it up:

Well to be fair, the pitchblende was being refined, from tons down to what, half a gram...

Well the thing with our basement is it's an old masonry foundation that sits right in the dirt, so it's always basically 90% humidity. :o Outside, today was beautiful though :)

Isn't propylene g.ol just glycerin?.... :o

You'll have to compress that butane pretty well, lest it freeze the H2SO4. :)

Read the MSDS. http://www.google.com

Last one I was using, I took all the red wires and all the black wires on the mobo connector and joined them together for each electrode respectively. Better than just using just one wire at 30A! :o

Anyone wanna put down bets on when the whole set is going to go, completely? Ten dollars says two hours run time.

Uh, virgin, meaning unaduterated, hymen still in place. :) Like, virgin aluminum is aluminum fresh from the pot line. It's in Webster's.
12AX7

Of course each line being a complete post, minus the tag line. 12AX7, tracing things back I think you may be to blame for some of this, you post about things you hardly know about, and when you don’t know something about some topic you search for something, anything to post it seems, even if it is just some vaguely related piece of information that serves no purpose other then to further your post count. But it’s not just you, other people are at this as well, and I feel bad for singling you out like this when there are others (You know who you are… neutrino, spark gap, I’m keeping my eye on you) who are going down this path and following this trend, you’re just the biggest target.

Personally I think Chemoleo, Vulture, Polverone, Ramiel, Madscientist, and I am a Fish should be encouraged to go through and do some forum pruning and delete posts that are irrelevant and little one-liner posts that add nothing to the conversation at will (older posts that have shown themselves to be irrelevant to the conversation) or at least move them to some far off dedicated thread in Detritus that will quickly grow to over 12 pages. As it is not only 12AX7 but other members now joining in on the action posting little quips and factoids that detract from the forum.

So, should the posts of post whores, irrelevant posts, and senseless one-liners be deleted and pruned from the forum, something that has hardly been done except in extreme cases in the past?

woelen - 7-9-2005 at 23:18

In principle I agree with deleting posts of post whores and all other kinds of irrelevant things. The problem, however, with this is that the decision about what to remove can sometimes be hard. So I would suggest to keep posts if there even is the slightest doubt about its irrelevancy. By doing so, I think that still most of the irrelevant posts will be removed, but that on the other hand relevant information is not removed accidently.

Ramiel - 7-9-2005 at 23:32

The title of moderator was bestowed upon me as a joke, I hope we’re under no illusions here, and it’s radically naïve to consider me ‘up there with the royalty’ of the board. For this reason, I can comfortably speak as a Regular Joe board member about moderators, so:

‘What is the job of a moderator?’
To keep the board running smoothly, with as little fuss as possible, and as little deviation from the maxims of the creator as possible – when you think about it, a moderator would be doing their job best when there is no job to be done. In other words, ideally people wouldn’t post items that detract from the quality of the board.

I'm guessing the motivation of true post whores and trolls is to read over a thread again and again, and gravitate towards the replies to their posts. So Freud would just say 'If you begin to ignore little Hans where you would have previously scolded him for seeking attention: then the attention seeking behaviours will become more intense for a time. Finally, Hans will realise that behaving poorly doesn’t get him attention any more, and will seek other avenues of gratification.’
Simply ignoring bad posts has been tried. I think it worked… but the board was still clogged up with ‘mischief’ posts, and at-best-trivial information.

I've always considered it a cardinal sin to delete posts. It's the ultimate form of censorship. But if someone sees that their posts aren’t popping up on screen and aren’t being replied to, perhaps they’ll leave, or even better… moderate their own posting, so to speak, before they post. It seems the people are voting with their feet though…

Taaie-Neuskoek - 8-9-2005 at 10:13

I voted 'other', so I have to explain now:
To delete at this stage posts is rather rude, and should be done with great care, otherwise confusion will occur, as even in one sentence there can be some information...

I know the mod's/admins do have more jobs than just keeping this forum clean, but maybe they start to be a bit more sharp in the future, and when a thread seems to slide towards a chatbox, they can type some warning in red or something.

But don't take this a critic mod's/admins, the work you put in this and other forum(s) is already very good, and I appreciate the amount of time you've put into it!!

I think it is good that you noticed this Bromicacid, I also noticed it a few times, where I thought: Where was this whole thread actually about, and had to scroll up to see the title.

[Edited on 8-9-2005 by Taaie-Neuskoek]

vulture - 8-9-2005 at 11:09

Your observation is absolutely correct, Bromic Acid. Retroactive measures are going to take lots of work though.

It's gonna take a while to do that, plus I think it's best the staff deletes at its own discretion, that is, where old posts that are off-topic do not gravely interfere with the thread, are left alone.

I'm all for a more proactive and aggressive approach against future postwhoring. Preemptive strike so to say :D

mick - 8-9-2005 at 12:05

From personal experience
I have posted a load of crap and, I hope, some good stuff in the past.
Keep the place open to all and U2U or something might work.

mick

Chemists have a good sense of humuor.

[Edited on 8-9-2005 by mick]

neutrino - 8-9-2005 at 15:48

I never realized I was such a problem.

I will admit to being guilty of short posts (that's just how I'm used to writing).

I always posted under the philosophy of 'the more the merrier'--that any relevant, useful information should be added.

What do people suggest I do about all this? Fundamentally change that philosophy of mine? Stop posting altogether unless I can fill up a long post and elaborate more when I do post? Stop being so tolerant of people new to the fields we discuss?

Quantum - 8-9-2005 at 16:40

Well first off I really enjoy reading long posts. That is why I like to read BLTC on totse because sometimes tweakers will ramble on for hours on some topic or other. But this is of course not totse and we must hold ourselves to a high standard so that information is clearly presented and there is only one large topic on each reaction, chemical ext in order to make searching easy and make archival faster(just click save page as)

Perhaps the mods could just delete all one liners and off topic stuff but, having copied them, post them(giving credit) in one large fragmented reply by the mod in question so that people can ignore it if they wish but it will not be censored, just moved, and people can pick through it if they will.

Perhaps mods could title replies like that as "Scraps of the Thread" or something. The only problem is that the cronological order would be all messed up thus making the scraps confusing to read.

Perhaps it's best to just delete them or pm the offender and get them to expand upon their idea if merrited.

BromicAcid - 8-9-2005 at 18:25

Neutrino, you do post good stuff, and I like your posts, really things are not too bad from anyone the way they are, I just fear them getting worse, just reminding people that what we write here might be avalible for quite some time and we should make the most of it. I don't want people to write posts and be wary of only stating a useful piece of information or something that is relevent but not entirely on topic.

Lately though it just seems the number of these posts had been increasing and I felt the need to vent. I am not saying anything about deleting a post only hours or even days that it is made, but many of use read through older threads and once in a while we will run across a whole section completely off topic (For example, in the phosphorus thread toward the begining there are several posts in a row relating to sodium manufacture). Some of these can be moved, some should be outright removed (the main topic of this thread) and I think a number of threads could benefit from this, the DPPP thread could be considerably shrunk and still retain a huge size.

I'm also not saying the mods should go on some holy quest going through every old thread and deleting irrelevent posts. Just if they happen to be reading the thread and a post completely sticks out as something that should not be there. But remember, as Polverone once said "Even stupid questions can lead to good discussions." So there is a line to walk, so it's just the calling for deleting completely crap posts that I am asking for the opinion on (anyone remember acid test?)

I'm glad that I'm not the only one to have noticed this in a way, and in a way I am not because it means it got to the point where it is starting to get annoying to some and detract from the board. Never the less, let's just generate some discussion.

And Ramiel, you've always seemed like a good moderator to me, seriously.

Chris The Great - 8-9-2005 at 18:26

I don't think that it's so much short posts, more that alot of the recent short posts have very little content and none of it is directly related to the thread at hand. We have an entire forum for stuff not directly related to the topic at hand.

I don't mind short posts such as "check out this referrence (journal title + abstract or link or attachment)", or simple statements and questions, when they are related to the topic at hand.
I don't like "hey guys thats cool" or "check out this completely unrelated event that happened to me" type posts.

Also, since I am one of those to blame for our fluorine breathing silicon based friends, I'll try to keep my posts on topic. Often I will start on topic but slowly drift a little away, then someone will reply even more off topic, and then I'll reply completely off topic....
Auto-catalytic reaction of off-topicness!

I don't think that deleting posts is the answer, I think that everyone needs to make a little teeny committment to try and keep things more on-topic (and if they do start getting off topic start a new thread or carry it on in an existing thread, don't keep clogging the original thread with unrelated information), and short posts strongly discouraged (stick in something in your on-topic post, but discuss it no further).

tom haggen - 8-9-2005 at 18:43

I say go to town. I know I have posted a lot of crap in the past. I think if theres any question on whether a certain post should be deleted you should just save it on hard copy or something. Nothing like a clean board to promote new and efficient growth. ;)

Fleaker - 16-9-2005 at 05:39

I put 'other' because I believe it is dependant entirely on the posts relevance. If it is a post giving a link or some sort of sources, that should certainly be permitted. References are very nice. Even personal anecdotes that pertain to safety or other important experiences should be allowed as they can help prevent accidents.

I try to post useful and relevant ideas/experiences but I can't claim to be on topic everytime and to make long, detail-loaded posts.

The decision should be up to the moderator, but I do suggest the moderator send a PM/U2U to the offender in question and give him the chance to expound or expunge.


If it's irking you that much Bromic, perhaps we could make a standardized way to report info on experiments. Such as:

Subject:
Purpose:
Apparatus Required:
Safety/Disposal Considerations:
Data :
Analysis of Data:
Conclusions:
Additional notes:
Questions to fellow forum members:

This would seem most applicable to the person who posts his results, yet could also be used for follow-up experiments. I'm sure many could improve upon the above, but maybe a standard, concise, clear/organized report would be useful; nothing wrong with a professional-looking report, right?

DeAdFX - 19-9-2005 at 14:14

Yes as long as personal fueds and what not do not get in the way, if posts are fairly judged, if this does not evolve into nazisim and at the moment that is it... Also if the question involves anything like HAY HOW DO I MAKE BLACK POWDER LOLOL TIME TO BLOW n00bs UP. The solution should be quite obvious.

I think humor and sarcasim should be avoided to as this might turn into "Hay guys lets make a funny remark about this chemical reaction and in the process crap on this guys thread" I have seen this happen to other forums and it was only months before everyone started making "humorous" jokes. Well not involving chemical reactions/science forum but a computer forum.

@ Fleaker standardizing would be a good idea. As that would eliminate certain trivial questions.

BromicAcid - 19-9-2005 at 14:22

The professional looking reports would be kind of nice, however I think they would clog the board a bit. It would be neat to have a separate database where each person could enter experiments they did in detail and when you wanted to know if something had been done before then you could search it for a few key words and *bam* instant results on how it worked for someone else, a collective experiment database.

However like I said this would clog up this forum a bit if most experiments were posted here, expeically since I usually get 10 or 15 done a week, I mean, who really wants to read about barium cyanamide or distilling sulfuric acid, I put that kind of everyday information on my website as of late.

Really though I think this thread has made most of the people here a little more responsible for what they post, because a lot of the people here that started as kewls but got smarter along the way regret their first posts here when they look back on them, because this information is technically going to be avalible for quite some time, we might be stuck reading the posts we wrote for quite a while.

Fleaker - 19-9-2005 at 15:24

I've been coming to this forum (lurking you might say) since a few months after its inception and I wholeheartedly agree with you Bromic, the quality is slipping. It was always my understanding that this was a board where chemists, students, and all those with a profound love for chemistry itself could share ideas and information for the advancement of each person. That's what it's about to me, not post-whoring to get a new 'ranking'.

People clogging it up with trivial posts that have no relevance or as you mentioned bromic, discuss an insignificant point, is totally uncalled for and detracts from what we all are really doing.

I agree that if everyone started posting standardized lab reports the board would get a bit clogged up. However, the home preparation of various reagents/materials is of use and interest to fellow enthusiasts. Additionally, fellow members could add their own experiences and questions towards he/she that posted. Why not even go so far as to critique certain methods and analyze the mathematics behind the reaction(s). It's necessary for improvement that we question each others' results and methods.

That is one thing I wish I could see more of on this forum: math. Pouring several reagents together and getting a product is one thing, but knowing how much is going into the system, what it is doing, why, etc is far better. I think that some members of the board (sure some of you must be doctorates or just plain brilliant) take for granted the education and comprehension levels of others. I'm sure some do not even know the basics of stoichiometry let alone kinetics, thermal, etc. I'm not asking that we get into sigmoidal fits and other grad lvl chemistry, but just the basics pertaining to the experiment on hand.

I agree entirely that some of the board populus started off in the less, er, the less constructive (in most cases and broadly speaking) areas of chemistry, but that's what drew them in to the finer points and the higher levels of understanding. We all have a common interest in chemistry, some of us with more or less knowledge and varying circumstances and setups with which to pursue enlightenment. It's just my hope that we collectively can act like a scientific community by helping and correcting and sharing information rather than engaging in contests of ego which is to me, a fool's game.

That's my idealist rant....I can dream can't I?

chemoleo - 19-9-2005 at 16:31

Well I wouldn't say it's slipping as much anymore, I have already noticed definite improvements. :)

I fully agree with BromicAcid, the three core issues are
1) low/no information content
2) silly one-liners (which have seemingly no other purpose than to get heard and increasing postcount)
3) and constant joke-making making up the main point of a post

Sadly, only the lack thereof define the quality of a forum.
Jokes are great and all as long as they aren't constantly the point of a post. Some may think this is what makes the forum humane and friendly (oh yes you know who I mean) -, but it definitely DEcreases readability and quality.

Search something. Read an old thread, seeking out a specific bit of information. Doesn't it then seem quite irritating that the info is hidden amongst a fair bit of junk?

I never quite understood, why can't those (that are tempted by the above) confine their wit/humour, or their lack of knowledge on the subject or simply their laziness to Whimsy, rather than cluttering a perfectly decent thread? That's what it's for, within some VERY lax limits.


Ramiel - this is exactly what caused the problem - people *hoping* that the post-whores would moderate their own posting once noone would reply. It didnt quite happen though did it.

I am quite glad Bromic made this thread, making this issue public so that those concerned don't think they are being picked on by the mods - instead I think it's become increasingly apparent that it's in the interest of everyone that some restraint and thought is required before posting.
Yet I agree with Ramiel that deleting posts is generally a cardinal sin, but what else can one do, i.e. in the extreme case of AcidTest/TGC?
Or, when postwhoring (even when done intelligently where one feels much more restraint at criticising or deleting) gets out of hand?

A public appeal to 'the guilty' and a raised awareness of the issues may yet do the job!

Else... DELETION! :D

[Edited on 20-9-2005 by chemoleo]

Ramiel - 5-10-2005 at 01:56

Sort of on this topic... Since we all know that the post-count is a way to earn your stars, and higher post-counts confer higher status - Is there a way to limit which sections contribute to ones post count. For instance, posting on whimsy won't affect a revised post count, and possibly all those posts in the 'non-chemistry' section (like this one, which is in it's own special way, a post-whore event).

That way I could post in whimsy without the associated feelings of guilt, like low fat ice-cream (preferably cookies and cream). A sort of "I can't believe it's not whimsy", har har.

sparkgap - 28-10-2005 at 02:59

And after a good number of weeks since the original post.

Yes, I believe I may have been a bit too heavy on one-liner posts, and I am sorry if they have been counterproductive. I do try, as much as I can, to make sure people can learn at least a little bit from my posts. I also do not wish to contribute to forum degradation.

I need someone to give me a head-whack... :P

sparky (~_~)

vulture - 28-10-2005 at 03:35

Nevertheless, I've noticed Quince and 12A7X are both showing progressive postwhoring.

Heads up fellas, or no cookies for two weeks.

froot - 29-10-2005 at 01:12

Clicked other.

Yes I am not exactly a major contributor here, chemistry is merely a hobby for me, I wish I knew more so I could contribute more. But anyways...

The level of quality of this forum is very high, of the best I've seen and I must commend the mods/admin for the great job they're doing. I hope you guys don't mind but I use the Sciencemadness forum as a model for forums that I moderate regarding the excellent control performed here.

Sciencemadness has almost 3000 members and postwhoring/trolling is inevitable. Deleting dud posts will always be a contentious issue. 2 suggestions...

1. 'Cleaning' up stale threads, say, over a year old, leaving only contributional material for ease of reference. It may seem like a HUGE task but most of the stuff here is pretty clean anyway.

2. Change the text colour of non-contributional posts as and when they happen so that when reading, one learns to just ignore the, say, pink text. It may drop a subtle hint to postwhores that they don't really want to achieve a post count with their 'pink' contribution.
;)

Hmmmm. Maybe the vote was more 'yes' with a twist than 'other'.

Axt - 9-1-2006 at 23:48

I need to vent...

<b>FPMAGEL</b> tends to piss me off whenever he posts. It pains me to see his shit smeared into threads where replying to it will only breed more rubbish posts.

Joeychemist - 23-1-2006 at 12:59

I suggest the mods start cleaning the crap out of the Shaped Charge thread if you’re going to start anywhere.

Has anyone actually tried to read through all the crap in that thread lately?

It makes me sick! :(

DeAdFX - 30-1-2006 at 21:09

random thought... But the people who put there email address in there posts demanding that someone emails them the answer should get spammed to hell and back with beastality porn...:D

Magpie - 30-1-2006 at 22:15

That seems like unusually cruel punishment. I would think that a liberal dose of taunting and ridicule would do the job. But I don't really know as I don't usually read these kewl based threads. ;)

Chris The Great - 30-1-2006 at 23:48

Yes, but people who do that are vastly more likely to enjoy the bestiality porn, so it would only make them more likely to repeat the act in order to get more of the 'spam'.

Cleaning up the SC thread would be nice, there is a lot of crud in there.

chochu3 - 31-1-2006 at 01:54

I agree.

One post said I prefer 20/40 joints over 19/22, I could give a shit; a lot of people like to give their opinions which is one form of irrelavent posting or someone posting how a certain chemical is real hazourdous, I think we all know what we are doing and if one doesn't then one should download one of the many books posted about this type of info.

Some of the other post are of the type where one does not agree that a certain reaction will work. I gotten a few of these, but these are not so bad. I will always reply to these so a reference can be read and seen and further my knowledge among others.

The other reason its happening is because of the respect one gets from having more posts I believe (higher title). I hope one of these days I may have a title as such, but others will know I'm full of shit if my posts don't mean shit so remember this he-bitch.:mad:

I think the reason for this is because of the shutdown of the hive.

Another thing I like to add about post whoring is where one write a formula and another posts how it is not balanced.

Sorry for the going on and on and by no means do I portray myself as perfect. These are just the things I find should not be posted and are by no means should be a guide to delete such posts as the latter complaint could have helped someone in knowing how much chem should be added to another reactant or to avoid a different product.:cool:

[Edited on 31-1-2006 by chochu3]

CherrieBaby - 10-2-2006 at 01:14

I don't think that post whores should be deleted but I do think that irrelevant stuff should be removed from a thread, ideally with a link to the new sub-thread in the Detritus forum.

For instance, take a look at this
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4918&a...
Microwave ovens morphed into slagging off Brainiac. I notice that one of these was from 12AX7 again.

DrP - 10-2-2006 at 04:21

Hmm.. sorry :( - I started talking about Brainiac in that thread because of the solvents in the microwave suggestion - I'm sure it is OK and safe in practice but thought I'd mention that they do regularly explode microwave in this way. - the conversation just led on from there. I did put in a laughing face ':D' to indicate that I wasn't being all that serious, however, obviously all care would need to be taken to avoid any contaminant which could create a spark. Sorry - I guess as I'm quite a new member I'm still getting used to what is appropriate.

Sandmeyer - 27-2-2006 at 05:13

Quote:
Originally posted by CherrieBaby
I notice that one of these was from 12AX7 again.


Anyone can make a misstake now and then, but it takes a real genius to constantly post missinformation. It came as no surprise to see that he takes the Bible literally.

;)


[Edited on 27-2-2006 by Sandmeyer]

Rosco Bodine - 27-2-2006 at 12:40

Quote:
Originally posted by Sandmeyer
Anyone can make a misstake now and then, but it takes a real genius to constantly post missinformation. It came as no surprise to see that he takes the Bible literally.

;)



http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/jc_maxwell.as...

More on geniuses and the bible .

I have the answer, please read on _

franklyn - 5-8-2006 at 20:37

The important issue here is the dilution of informative and insightful
commentary with what amounts to memorialized instant messaging,
making it tedious to sift through what one can consider to be bull.

These issues are pandemic to all discussion forums on the Internet
regardless of editorial and topical inclination. It cannot be expected
that an enthusiastic adolescent is going to make observations having
the relevance that a 30 something working engineer will make. On the
Internet no one knows you're a dog.

A problem with strict adherence to this principle is that useful and
important threads become relegated over time far down in the
thread stack. I have seen threads of interest ( to me ) cited years
ago and probably forgotten.

The first post which opens a new thread must be the heading for
that thread or else it's sure to go off on a tangent discussion.
Establishing the etiquette of opening a new thread with a quote and
link as a reference would allow side issues and discussions without
irrelevant contributions in the parent thread.

To be fair, this can be remedied democratically in the following way.

Each individual post is identifiable and can be assigned an integer value
from say - 20 up to + 20. Anyone can cast a vote worth one count
plus or minus on any post, to either razz :P or to acclaim :D.
A running count is kept of the score. This has the effect of bringing to light
and the top of the thread stack, those threads of value ( with high + count ).
If you post low quality content, viewers can vote to razz you. Bad
content is automatically purged when the preset threshold of - 20
is reached.

This is precisely the method employed by some search engines to
establish relevance to a topic, the number of hits or visitations to
a site or page.

.

Nicodem - 5-8-2006 at 21:52

All these problems (if problems at all) could be simply solved by enforcing scientific discourse.

I know only of one forum where scientific discourse has been successfully enforced and maintained while most members were not scientists. Unfortunately that forum is now dead.
But the way this was achieved was very tedious and took a lot of effort from the moderators, the software programmer, senior members and so on. The result was however fascinating. New members were discouraged whenever they posted already answered questions (the famous “UTFSE!”), misinformation (by a “misinformation” label on the post), didn’t used at least the basic scientific discourse or were claiming without reference (by being flamed for it and given a good example). There were only two subforums where scientific discourse was not being a prerequisite to post, one was like Whimsy here and the other was impossible to discipline due to the special nature of the topic, regardless how hard the moderators tried. There were also the “karma points” that functioned similarly like Franklyn proposes above.

It was a very tough training and not all new members survived trough it, but those who did, matured to a higher level. I’m sure many ex members (many of them now part of this forum) can tell you the same. Furthermore the board software was of the most sophisticated form one can imagine and the programmer could make a fortune by commercializing it. It allowed for anything one needed, visualization of the SMILE chemical structure codes, multiple attachments (up to 10MB!) with pictures being displayed, simplified external links (to patents, medline, etc.) and internal links (with full reference).

What I’m trying to say is that there already is a known working model. No need to reinvent what already proved to work perfectly. The question is:
1.) Do members want to communicate in a scientific discourse at all?
2.) Do the administrator and the moderators want such a change?
3.) Can the board software be changed at all?

I would say some members don’t want scientific discourse, would prefer kewlish communication while many don’t even know exactly the esence of science is. So the answer to the first question is not that straightforward. The same goes for the second question. This would mean a lot of effort and more responsibility for moderators so it would be fully understandable to simply avoid any change. I have never noticed any noteworthy change in the board software so perhaps the answer to the third question is a plain negative.

[Edited on 6-8-2006 by Nicodem]

Polverone - 6-8-2006 at 00:45

Adopting strict moderation is hard, because to work it needs to be uniform as well as strict; otherwise people perceive favoritism, and I want to avoid actual and perceived favoritism in the handling of rule enforcement. Additional features for behavior management would be helpful; for example, on some boards the mods/admins can hand out time-limited probation during which members cannot post, flagging the offense that caused probation as well. This requires features in the board software that we do not have. I occasionally give time-limited posting bans but I have to manually set and unset them.

The board software has a number of unfinished features even though it's supposed to be in a stable release -- a stunning testament to its creators' vision, I'm sure. If I were starting the board today I doubt that I would use XMB, but my choices were more limited a few years ago.

I don't know PHP but I do have a fair amount of programming experience; the board could probably be customized given sufficient time, but right now I feel like I'd be starting with heavily flawed source material (though it is GPL, which makes customization easy, legally). Migration to other board software might be another option eventually; either all content here could be moved to static archives or I could try to write some software to migrate content to a new board, keeping it 'live.'

Almost all forum-type software is terrible for threads that are long and/or have multiple branches of conversation. Even the Hive's nice custom forum software didn't attempt to tackle this problem. For long conversations I prefer hierarchical replies rather than strictly linear threads -- you can easily see examples of this paradigm at slashdot or kuro5hin in 'nested' comment display mode. I think some mailing list archives also display this way. The important thing is that it always identifies the flow of conversation (who responded to what, and in what order) even when people do not explicitly quote what they are responding to.

The_Davster - 6-8-2006 at 10:54

I will get on my knees and beg for you to reconsider if changing to a slashdot like forum is ever seriously considered. Or send you, say palladium.
If people used the 'reply with quote' button effectivly the same effect could be had.

I was browsing Chemicalforums a while ago, and they have some sort of option that when you find a post helpful you give the poster a 'scooby snack'. It also works in reverse. I think this is what franklyn was suggesting, and I do like the idea, assuming it gets a better name than 'scooby snack'.

Polverone - 6-8-2006 at 11:07

I would not change to a slashdot-type system because it is geared to an article/discussion pattern; the only thing I prefer about it is the possibility to display replies with a structure that reflects the flow of conversation. Quote with reply isn't really the same. On a slashcode site, if 3 people reply to the same post, all 3 replies can appear nested at the same depth and adjacent to one another. With standard forum software, even if 3 people reply with quote to the same post, the 3 may be widely separated in the thread because there are other conversations taking place simultaneously. For example, if we have a discussion about hydrogenation that has two main thrusts, one on catalyst preparation and the other on difficult substrates, reply-with-quote will indiscriminately mix the two themes. Slashcode-type discussion can display them so that related topics and sub-topics are grouped together, and it leads to lower textual clutter because less quoting is needed to maintain context.

I have seen several sites with user moderation where people can encourage or discourage posts they see with a point system. It works poorly if there's a lot of poor posters moderating as well as posting (see again: slashdot) but it might work okay here, if we were using software that supported it.

12AX7 - 6-8-2006 at 11:20

Let's just move to alt.chemistry.sciencemadness. :^P

Every news client I've used (..OE..) supports threaded replies.

Tim

Magpie - 6-8-2006 at 13:47

I like the format here and find it very easy to use. I never have any trouble following the threads as they read like "people in a room having a conversation." I have read some other forums -- slash dot style I believe. I found them hard to follow and didn't like them at all. I like the fact that those interested in chemistry, for whatever reason, and of diverse backgrounds, can feel accepted here.

If a poster gets out-of-hand mostly senior members take care of that through ridicule, threats, etc. That's the way it should be. We shouldn't be overloading our moderators. They have enough to do as it is without getting paid for it.

I do wish new people would UTFSE, however, before starting a new thread.

Chris The Great - 6-8-2006 at 14:28

I have had one experience with the type of forum described (slash dot style or whatever you want to call it) and there was a simple option in the user control panel to display threads either in a linear fashion (as is most common) or nested and grouped by topic. So if it is implemented, I would make it optional since not everyone wants that type of forum.
I used to enjoy it but find that the linear display is easier to read.

Organikum - 6-8-2006 at 18:34

Fuck it. Its just fine as it is. For personal purposes I save threads in "print" as I get them whole and delete the noise*.

*includes many of my posts.


/ORG

PS: Don´t idealize the Hive. We all miss it and Rhodium and the others who stole it may burn in hell eternally. Osmium twice. But it was not we want it to bee. Or was it just what we wanted it to bee?

Anyways. Hey Rhodium you fucking bastard release the information you are now preholding to the ex-moderators and some "selected" ones (elitist asshole. you don´t even know how to make methylamine from hexa), release this information AND the locked threads which are much to nice. Come on! Give us the url and the password or just put it up on bittorrent. But you pisser don´t talk to anybody but to your alter ego Lili who doesn´t talk to anybody else. Fucking closet homos.

Rhodium you were entrusted as an archivist of the Hive and you stole the archives. You are not what we hoped you are.

This topic makes me so angry when I am drunk that I feel inclined to post Osmiums real name here. But who would pay for the children? Oh he doesn´t anyways? We should have known this.

[Edited on 7-8-2006 by Organikum]

Nicodem - 7-8-2006 at 04:19

The "linear threads" are way better than that complete chaos of nested replies. The forum is slowly evolving anyway. I mean, it is not regressing isn’t it.
But I still vote for the implementation of the "UTFSE!" rule. Not using the search engine by the newbies before posting is in my opinion an expression of disrespect to what others have already achieved and posted, and that is showing disrespect to the forum itself. Why should members be spoon feed?

PS: Org., you are taking this way too personally. Your feelings are understandable and shared by many but your response is not really mature. Perhaps you believe you see the whole picture and have your rights to be pissed, but I don't know what really happened and somehow I doubt you know all there is to know too. There is no need to wash dirty laundry in public, isn't it? At least, I hope it made you feel any better as that was probably the only think that you could gain.

12AX7 - 7-8-2006 at 14:31

Don't mind Org, I think he mentioned drunkenness. ;)

One forum I'm on has a check box when starting threads "Have you searched?". If you don't check it when posting, it pops up a dialog reminding you.

Tim

not_important - 25-8-2006 at 07:57

I'm going to toss in a few comments, now that I've been around for a few days, as a user of computer hosted discussions going back to BBSes of the early 1980s and Usenet.

First off, I want to say that this is a pretty well run system. I know it is not easy to keep a mostly open discussion board from decaying into chaos; it tends to make administrators cranky and to burn out. I t's not even herding cats, it's herding butterflies. So, good job, folks.

This sort of system is different than a conversational or topical commentary orientated one, such as slashdot, in a sense it can be closer to a library than a discussion.

The large number of topics seems to lead to a number of old, in a sense stale, threads; this can make it difficult to locate historical discussion, even with the search function. Topic drift means that a section of a thread may really belong to a different thread than the one it is in.

It might be useful if the forums could support another level of topic, so that 'Reagents and Apparatus Acquistion' might have subdivisions/subforums of 'reactive metals (Na,Mg..)', 'acids and bases', 'common organics', and so on. Get the number of threads down to where visual inspection can find the one you want.

A way to prune and graft posting could be handy - a section of (topic drifting but useful) messages could be moved into a forum where it was a better fit, leaving behind a stuf that states that messages have been moved 'here'. This would also handle those new threads that should have been in an old established thread, uproot it, tack it onto the end of where it should have been, leaving just the now locked starting post with an appended comment that it was moved and a pointer there. Try to avoid 'flame the n00b', a moderator judgement call if this is just an overeager posting to be redirected, or a case for Detritus.

One reason I like threads is that they give you something a bit like this without actual prune and graft, if the reply-to is used more or less properly then topic-drift tends to be easily skipped by when reading the main thread of conversation. But this is a subject that received no end of ... heated discussion back in the mid `80s.

I like the idead of the search pop-up when starting a new topic. It can be ignored, but at least it's a nudge that doesn't require adminstrator effort, and gives the administrators some backing when they have to cut a thread - 'you were asked if you had searched, and the topic is in this old thread'.

Better than the passworded sections would be 'blessing' a user to allow access to a section of the board, adminstrator managed bits of a user profile. Not only access, but optionally visibility of the area, new users don't even know about the area until they are blessed. Yes, this opens up the favouritism issue, true. But it removes the problem of passwords being given to people who perhaps shouldn't get them, and gives the forum management the ability to withdraw access when it has been abused.

Such a feature might work well with with user feedback rating. Enough thumbs=up from older/well-liked users would both tell a user how well their posting were received and possibly elevate them in 'rank', giving them access or posting-access to other areas (meaning some areas might be read-only to new users).

The "twit bit" concept seems to be missing from current discussion software. At the simplest, a (administrator set) twit-bitted user's posting would only be visible to that user and administrators. In fancier implementations twit-bitting someone would result in a whole new region of the board opening up, that was generally ignored by administrators and that ordinary users didn't or could choose not to see. the twitted users, thiking they had been given special access, tended to run wild there; but as only twits and trolls were around they tended to soon become bored with flaming each other and leave for rad BBSz where they could trade software and postage stamp sized p0rn GIFs. Ordinary users say none of this; as what are now known as sock-puppets tended to end up in the twit bin together they would happily leave their "well, I think UzErX is K3wl" postings under the delusion that they were accomplishing their goal.

Sorry for the rambling nature of this post, it's getting late and I'm not terribly coherent (and I need to find a new proxy yet).

Polverone - 25-8-2006 at 19:41

Most of the suggested changes are software features. All of those features are already present in other forum systems, if not the current system. Unfortunately, all free forum software (and almost all paid forum software) seems to be written in PHP (XMB is) or Perl. The former is an abomination and the latter I find at least unpleasant... so there's not been much enthusiasm on my part for customization. The related problem is that forum software is typically riddled with bugs and security holes, so I don't even get a nice canvas to start dablling on.

If there is forum software out there that is not written in PHP, and has a reasonably good featureset and low incidence of security or other problems, it might be worth considering a migration from the current system. Perl would at least be tolerable to work with for customization, if I could start with a reasonably good system. I'd even consider paying for good software, because implementing something robust from scratch is a huge undertaking. Plus member donations have taken the sting out of providing for the welfare of Sciencemadness as a forum.

not_important - 26-8-2006 at 02:16

I'll agree on the difficulty, and was either aware or suspected it would take a software change. I was just tossing in an outsider's view.

I've done some programming in PHP/SQL, more in Perl, a lot more in C, assembler, Forth, and Fortran. PHP has some good points, as well as annoying aspects; but I find it much less annoyance than C++ or Pascal. Or ASP.

DeAdFX - 27-8-2006 at 13:29

Quote:
Originally posted by Magpie

If a poster gets out-of-hand mostly senior members take care of that through ridicule, threats, etc. That's the way it should be. We shouldn't be overloading our moderators. They have enough to do as it is without getting paid for it.


I would rather have moderators as the police as opposed to "forum vigilantes" or senior members. If we have a random group of senior members, rule enforcement will be too random. I assume that the moderators/administrators of this message board want the rules enforced a certain way and to guarantee that senior members interested in maintaining the intelligence quotient of this board should ask for moderating privileges. This way if the moderator is a complete asshole, jerk or just plain incompetent his moderator powers can be removed. On the flip side sometimes people will only listen when there are 30+ other people saying the same god damn thing to them. Also compared to other forums, the forum seniors here seem to be much nicer[except in whimsy but that’s understandable].

Side comment. I also find forum vigilantes to be a little on the self righteous side. They are a little to willing to call people names (like asshole/dumbshit/fucktard/etc) for newbish mistakes. Now whether or not the person is a dumb fuck in real life I don’t think flaming someone out is the greatest way to say you are wrong. If a forum senior can clearly and patiently address the person’s mistakes without flaming them the first time around that would be great. If the newbie still doesn’t get it then that’s a different story....

Like all things in life when assholes start accumulating power the world is a shittier place…




[Edited on 27-8-2006 by DeAdFX]

S.C. Wack - 27-8-2006 at 15:27

Unfortunately, getting bitch-slapped is the only language idiots really understand. If the dipshits had any reasoning ability, others would not need to tell them to drink bleach and die. I'd rather see abuse of the abusers than any board changes. The idea of a perfect society where everyone is nice, blah blah, is just an idea and can't work because we're in the real world with real people.