Sciencemadness Discussion Board

How to Sell Chemicals Legally Online

SupaVillain - 28-10-2014 at 10:12

In the United States:

What are the legal requirements of manufacturing and selling chemicals that are legally to buy and possess over the counter? I see that people sometimes sell what they have their lab on here but to be able to be an actual long term vendor, what is required?

Can i literally just make reagents in my basement and sell them online?

I'm worried that people are required to rent a business place that is environmentally "okay" with manufacture of chems, have to have everything inspected by fire department for hazard safety, have a hazardous waste truck pick up your waste, and pay insurance and that not an investment that Im prepared to make.

Is it as easy as not revealing the manufacture of the chemicals to be on residential land or is it just the worry of certain chemicals and their waste that is a problem?

The only thing I know about regulations so far is what chemicals are and arent illegal and the fact that there are many that have to comply with shipping laws, for example, "conforming with ORM-D" type of crap you see.

I'm also not the type of person who would be interested in selling precursors that I would have to constantly report info to the DEA on, not looking for a hassle here.

Loptr - 28-10-2014 at 11:14

I am not sure if you will get a good answer, actually. The laws vary from place to place, and it also likely depends on the specific material. Any general sweeping guidance would likely be at the federal level intended to keep commercial interests in check.

I am sure you could probably ask Tom Holm from Elemental Scientific for a basic rundown. He is a member of this forum.

[Edited on 28-10-2014 by Loptr]

Dr.Bob - 28-10-2014 at 12:56

The biggest issue for legitimate companies is the DOT regs. Shipping anything that must be placarded as flammable, corrosive, oxidant, or other hazard makes for a nightmare of rules and regs, plus very high shipping costs, as most of those cannot be shipped by USPS, and must be shipped via UPS, FedUp or freight. It is not that you cannot ship those items, only that the DOT rules are about as complex of the tax codes. So the way you can ship things is variable on the amount, the EX number of the chemicals, the packaging, etc. And that is for domestic shipments, overseas hazmat is completely nuts. The way many Chinese companies ship things is that they ignore the laws completely, and ship Lithium or other hazards as "toys" or such. I have seen it done. But it is hard for the US authorities to arrest people in China, so they mostly just seize those orders if found at customs and you lose your money.

The DEA, HSA and such are not as bad as OSHA, EPA, local fire marshal, and the other alphabet soup that any chemical user has to content with. Unfortunately, it is not simple or easy to start a small chemical business. I know many people who did it, and most are now out of it. Between gov. regs and competition from China, there is not much space to make any money.

SupaVillain - 28-10-2014 at 13:43

It honestly seems like everything out there has a large list of cons and a small list of pros, so you might as well do what youve decided that you enjoy.

Loptr - 28-10-2014 at 14:38

Quote: Originally posted by SupaVillain  
It honestly seems like everything out there has a large list of cons and a small list of pros, so you might as well do what youve decided that you enjoy.


Check out the sellers on eBay. They are doing it.

If you are going to go ahead with it anyway, I would just stick to material that doesn't bring unwanted attention, and stay away from things that are blatantly dangerous and volatile.

Manufacturing Chemicals

tomholm - 28-10-2014 at 20:45

Developing something for commercial resale is a world apart from developing something for your own use. I'm not in any position to give advice, but you might want to consider the following:

1. Form a legal business entity, run it legitimately, or be prepared to lose everything you own when you get sued or shut down.

2. Think of your neighbors. Would you want to live next to someone who is manufacturing a bunch of chemicals (perhaps some dangerous or toxic if mixed) in their basement? Not to mention the zoning codes that would either prevent you or shut you down.

3. Who is the intended market? Food grade? Lots of regulations to qualify a product. Lab grade? Have to implement quality control and certify to certain grade/specifications. Hobbiest? Still need quality control and hope nobody misuses it or is injured by it.

4. Gov't regulations. OSHA, DOT, FDA, ATF. A lot to know.

Probably a lot more to consider, but you get the idea. Must be an easier way to use your skills and still enjoy what you do.

j_sum1 - 28-10-2014 at 23:28

Point taken Tom. But there must be some middle ground. For example if you are setting up some equipment to synthesise an element sample (K springs to mind) then it is little extra effort to do a few runs and bottle some extra for collectors.

Loptr - 29-10-2014 at 06:26

Quote: Originally posted by tomholm  
Developing something for commercial resale is a world apart from developing something for your own use. I'm not in any position to give advice, but you might want to consider the following:

1. Form a legal business entity, run it legitimately, or be prepared to lose everything you own when you get sued or shut down.

2. Think of your neighbors. Would you want to live next to someone who is manufacturing a bunch of chemicals (perhaps some dangerous or toxic if mixed) in their basement? Not to mention the zoning codes that would either prevent you or shut you down.

3. Who is the intended market? Food grade? Lots of regulations to qualify a product. Lab grade? Have to implement quality control and certify to certain grade/specifications. Hobbiest? Still need quality control and hope nobody misuses it or is injured by it.

4. Gov't regulations. OSHA, DOT, FDA, ATF. A lot to know.

Probably a lot more to consider, but you get the idea. Must be an easier way to use your skills and still enjoy what you do.



Those are a lot of good points. Once you start manufacturing something to sell, you obviously then fall into the commercial category, which is when all the government regulations start to absolutely apply to you, unlike personal use for hobby purposes which is something of a gray area.

If you then qualify as a commercial entity it is open season for the authorities to come and get you for zoning and storage violations, etc.

I don't think this is the best idea. If you are going to make element samples, then make element samples and not pass your self off as a chemical supplier. I feel this would end badly.

[Edited on 29-10-2014 by Loptr]

SupaVillain - 29-10-2014 at 11:25

Amazing, see this is exactly what I needed to hear.
Im honestly trying to find a way to use chemistry to make some extra money or possibly make it my job because id love to work in it.

I wonder if making bodybuilding protein and energy supplements that dont have to be FDA approved will be something that I could do without legal issues, since hardcore reagent chemicals seem to get all the attention. Powdered and liquid supplements will be totally overlooked i think. Although some chems are involved most things are edible and/or safe

SupaVillain - 29-10-2014 at 12:03

Okay so at first I thought about the possibilty of outsourcing/offshoring a chemical company to ship it to U.S., now im thinking why dont I just do this in Mexico, since ill be close to that border soon, and now Im wondering why chemicals are cheaper from china than mexico, anybody in the business know what the deal is? Could make it "owned" by a mexican so that U.S. authorities cant go after them for importing against regulations, theres all kinds of legal loopholes to make silly ideas like this possible. Really the only law that would be broken would be all the mumbo jumbo shipping regulations, and i could even have a code of moral conduct that only things that could realistically cause problems would be shipped properly.

its like doing the same thing but also owning the foreign country business that imports things to you. That would maybe even be profitable enough to make money to support a mailroom building that receives the chemicals and then LEGALLY ships/sells them to american chemists.

Whaddya guys think?

Maybe china might be cheaper than mexico regardless of the transportation costs because china doesnt have insurance or zoning laws or child labor laws while mexico has slightly more than they do

halogen - 29-10-2014 at 13:39

Even something as innocuous as tryptophan once proved to have a terribly poisonous contaminant. Unlikely, but things go wrong.

[Edited on 29-10-2014 by halogen]

aga - 29-10-2014 at 13:49

Is it just me (a Brit) or is it a North American Thing to just want to make stuff and sell lots of it ?

(i ask cos i have an ongoing argument with an American wifi manufacturer, i don't see their logic.)

Why not use your analysis skills, using your chemistry knowledge, and sell analytical Services ?

Upgrade your Income and sell a monthly paid flat-fee service.

Sure, some months you'll be Busy on the same wages, yet every Sale will simply increase your monthly income, whether the work happens or not.

Many slow months (not much actual Work) and Never a Poor month, as the money just flows.

SupaVillain - 29-10-2014 at 17:57

That is an amazing contribution Aga. Definitely going to look into that.

Dr.Bob - 29-10-2014 at 18:47

Quote: Originally posted by SupaVillain  
Okay so at first I thought about the possibilty of outsourcing/offshoring a chemical company to ship it to U.S., now im thinking why dont I just do this in Mexico, since ill be close to that border soon, and now Im wondering why chemicals are cheaper from china than mexico, anybody in the business know what the deal is?


The government in China does not enforce many rules or regulations. If an employee is hurt, they are fired. If the company pollutes, they bribe someone to ignore it. If they sell a chemical that kills babies, they ships chemicals with no regard to international shipping laws, and lawyers in the US cannot sue them (easily). And they pay their help about $1 per hour. So they can make and ship chemicals for less than the US. Also, if they ship you a chemical which is not as pure or the correct amount, you have essentially no legal recourse to get your money back. So caveat emptor.

Quote: Originally posted by SupaVillain  

Could make it "owned" by a mexican so that U.S. authorities cant go after them for importing against regulations, theres all kinds of legal loopholes to make silly ideas like this possible. Really the only law that would be broken would be all the mumbo jumbo shipping regulations, and i could even have a code of moral conduct that only things that could realistically cause problems would be shipped properly.


That is true, but if they track the shipments back to you and find you in the US, they can haul you off to prison. If you stay in Mexico, then you have the gangs to contend with.
Quote: Originally posted by SupaVillain  

its like doing the same thing but also owning the foreign country business that imports things to you. That would maybe even be profitable enough to make money to support a mailroom building that receives the chemicals and then LEGALLY ships/sells them to american chemists.

There are already companies in China (and Mexico to a lesser extext) doing this, you would have a lot of competition, and they might have friends and family in places that can cause you grief. Just look at the history of US companies trying to operate in China, they have been extorted, arrested, and been robbed by Chinese officials who did not want foreigners stealing their business. But you are welcome to try.

I welcome anyone who wants to work to make a living in the US. But the US has made it very difficult to run a small business in many business areas, especially those involving chemicals, hazardous materials, shipping, pharma, and sales. For a long time, you could run a software or computer business at your home and be left alone, but now I have heard of cities even targeting them for not having the right zoning, business licenses, taxes, OSHA specs, insurance, sales tax collections, and much more. That's why our economy is dying while China's is growing.

SupaVillain - 30-10-2014 at 07:50

Well all these issues on the table dealing with foreign competitors could be fixed by secrecy. Anonymously selling to the U.S. all that is required is for the secret operations to happen in another country and the US doesnt care about legitimacies of other countries or if it was made in a chinaman's basement they just care that it is shipped correctly.

zed - 30-10-2014 at 14:44

Mexico? Why not try Canada first, or India? These days, Mexico isn't the most wholesome place to live.

Though, I suppose there might be special business opportunities there. You could cremate cartel generated corpses (for a fee), and then sell the ashes for either Voodoo rituals, or for use in Chinese Medicine. Seems morbid. But, in Victorian times, there used to be a nice market for mummy powder.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-o...

[Edited on 30-10-2014 by zed]