Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Old insecticides

Old insecticides

I Like Dots - 9-10-2014 at 13:28

I found some old insecticides from the 80's. does anybody know anything about them? Are any of them useful for anything?
Maybe i will try to isolate the pure chemicals from the solutions.

Anyway, active ingredients from left to right.
Fenoprop, Acephate, Ethion, Chlordane, Bendiocarb

Dan Vizine - 9-10-2014 at 13:40

All I see is a toxic liability. Sorry.

xfusion44 - 9-10-2014 at 13:44

Maybe this would be useful in some way: "Acephate emits toxic fumes of phosphorus, nitrogen, and sulfur oxides when heated to decomposition."

I don't like those health effects of chlordane...

[Edited on 9-10-2014 by xfusion44]

Kitsune - 13-10-2014 at 05:02

From my limited knowledge of these chemicals, a few of them are definitely now banned and for good reason, the others should be. Unless you are highly adept with chemistry techniques and have a very good way of disposing of any waste; I'd leave them well alone, it's not exactly like there's any compounds that would be worth the risk. However interesting looking bottles.

Regards
Kitsune

Hawkguy - 13-10-2014 at 13:19

I have some ridiculously old insecticides as well in me garage. It's worth noting that DDT is an ingredient in one of them, labelled as "20% DDT solution". I'd recommend checking your bottles for any similar result, as DDT is hella nasty.

Oscilllator - 13-10-2014 at 15:03

DDT is nasty, but it's a lot more nasty for the environment than it is for you. Handle the stuff with caution and you should be fine. Just don't tip it down the drain!

Ozone - 13-10-2014 at 15:05

Acephate is still marketed in the US, see "Orthene" powder. It is a fairly good ant killer. When it gets old, it degrades to CS2 (hence the smell) and methamidophos, a pesticide several times more toxic (and hence, effective). When fresh, it's meh. When old, the fire ants (quite difficult to kill) come out and do the dance of death. Yessss.

Now, Mirex (less toxic than kepone, an analog) and chlordane are organochlorine pesticides that have been on the CLP list forever. They are highly effective, but are an environmental hazard because they are so stable and tend to bioaccumulate in adipose tissue. This stability, however, is why you want to buy an old home in areas known to have formosan subterranean termites--the old house piles are soaked in chlordane, which still keeps them from eating your house. For example, new construction in New Orleans is just a bad idea. With the exceptions of chloracne and liver failure, these aren't so bad. Chlordane has a rather nice smell...and, makes fire ants do the dance of death.

Bendiocarb isn't so bad, and is still marketed. It is much less toxic than the big-daddy carbamate, aldicarb, aka. Temek.

DDT isn't really too toxic to mammals, BUT, it is an CLP pesticide and was banned because it caused shell thickness in bird eggs. Most of Louisiana's pelicans bought it that way (which is why the La state bird was re-introduced from Florida). See also "Silent Spring" by Carson. It is hell on mosquitoes, though, and still saves thousands (if not millions) of lives from malaria, yellow fever, et al. in other countries.

Overall, I'd hold on to them. Do not attempt to do any Chemistry with them, though. You never know when you might really need to kill the hell out of some bugs (watch for waterways and discharge, though, most are hell on birds and fish) or treat some pilings when you build your house.

Cheers,

O3

[Edited on 13-10-2014 by Ozone]

Kitsune - 14-10-2014 at 14:16

Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator

DDT is nasty, but it's a lot more nasty for the environment than it is for you. Handle the stuff with caution and you should be fine. Just don't tip it down the drain!

From my time doing research into EDCs (endocrine disrupter compounds) I would say that DDT is of relatively (Certainly Relative) little danger to you, in any quantity; but even down to nanomolar doses it will be devastating in generations to come (Micromolar-Nanomolar doses are most potent). EDC damage is very evident in F0 (you) but piques at F3 (Great Grandchildren) and onwards; trials using mice, rats, rabbits, various "knock-out" animals, In vitro cells, even human epidemiological show a very daunting trend.

Personally from all have I learnt in this subject, I would seal those bottles tight and just use them as ornaments (Somewhere they don't stand a chance in getting damaged) or dispose of them very carefully using the correct, safe and environmentally friendly protocols set out by your local government.

I can steer anyone who is interested in this sort of thing in the direction of some fantastic/heavy/scary papers.

Sorry about being so down-toned but these compounds are seriously bad news; feel free to play with HCl, HNO3, HF and all the others but leave DDT well alone.

jock88 - 15-10-2014 at 08:41

DDT is still used 'out foreign' is it not? It is very cheap and effective.

I have some old Nicotine Sulphate. I might soak it into some tea leaves and have a good smoke. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhh.
It might be usable is those new fangle electronic/computer-controlled cigarettes.

hyfalcon - 15-10-2014 at 08:46

Quote: Originally posted by Kitsune

Quote: Originally posted by Oscilllator

DDT is nasty, but it's a lot more nasty for the environment than it is for you. Handle the stuff with caution and you should be fine. Just don't tip it down the drain!

That might explain some of the things I've seen over the years. They used to use this in prisons to "delouse" incoming inmates. Did you read anything about learning ability of those F1 and F2 generations?

[Edited on 15-10-2014 by hyfalcon]

Dr.Bob - 15-10-2014 at 11:09

The chlordane is the best stuff ever for termites as stated above. If it had only been used for that (as apposed to being sprayed everywhere), it might still be available, as it binds tightly to clay, so it really is not that bad for the environment, since it stays put around a house for years. I think treating a house once every 50 years is better then every year or 10, so it seems like a good trade off. DTT had it pros and cons, but is nearly gone, even in many undeveloped countries it is hard to find. Few of the newer sprays kill mosquito well, if you want to help humanity, find a good mosquito selective pesticide. And a treatment for Ebola while you are at it.

The others are a variety of bugs poisons and mechanisms. I'm happy to dispose of them for you...

Little_Ghost_again - 15-10-2014 at 11:24

This my dads area (kind of), he is an embryologist and he has always told me that what I eat and do affects my grandchildren. Now at 14 I find that mind blowing, that I have the right to do what the fuck I want to myself but the people who actually would pay the price for that are many many years from being born.
Makes you think dosnt it.

[Edited on 15-10-2014 by Little_Ghost_again]

Ozone - 15-10-2014 at 13:47

At this point, with respect to epigenetic changes relative to chemical exposure, I'm probably screwed already. That said, IIRC, they preferred to use lindane (hexachlorocyclohexane, mixed isomers, mostly gamma) for delousing the immigrants. It is also a CLP list pesticide with relatively low toxicity (for an organochlorine pesticide) and is not a noted genotoxin. It is environmentally persistent, however, and can bioaccumulate like most OC pesticides.

Interestingly, it was still the active ingredient in delousing shampoo (Rid, IIRC) when I was growing up (70's-80's). You could always pick out the kid with lice by the smell of Rid.

O3

jock88 - 16-10-2014 at 11:20

Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again

This my dads area (kind of), he is an embryologist and he has always told me that what I eat and do affects my grandchildren. Now at 14 I find that mind blowing, that I have the right to do what the fuck I want to myself but the people who actually would pay the price for that are many many years from being born.
Makes you think dosnt it.

[Edited on 15-10-2014 by Little_Ghost_again]

And if you had any idea what is being pissed onto vegetables and corn as it is being grown you would not eat any of those 'wholesome' 'natural' products.

AJKOER - 20-10-2014 at 13:37

I would try an dump a small amount in an container with a hydroxyl radical creation reaction going on (perhaps, a nitrate in sunlight, an acidified FeCl2 solution in sunlight, ....) in a place where the volatile (and likely cancer causing) fumes are far removed from anyone. See if this treatment can effectively decompose those stable insecticides/pesticides.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was also thinking about (most likely a bad idea also as is anything you do or fail to properly not do with an old insecticide/pesticide) make your own safer (at least to humans) pesticide. One could first prepare Copper ammonium hydroxide. The latter is conveniently made by treating a copper source with dilute ammonia and dilute H2O2 with a touch of sea salt (to act as the electrolyte) for its electrochemical based formation (easily identified by its royal blue color). Then, add seltzer water to form a solution of the widely used pesticide Copper ammonium carbonate. Apparently, Cu is very toxic to lower organism, but not so much to humans. Be careful on how you use it if you must, as it will kill fish in ponds with a high enough contamination, cats and even some dogs eating grass treated with this pesticide,.....You may also be able to use a spray version of this to address a bed bug issue.

I am amazed on how people think its cool to buy/cook with copper pots and such. I guess ignorant is bliss after all (like not knowning that those old pesticides are leaking into your home).

[Edited on 20-10-2014 by AJKOER]

Dan Vizine - 25-10-2014 at 14:04

Quote: Originally posted by jock88

......
I have some old Nicotine Sulphate......

Now, THERE's a poison for you. I don't think you can buy that anymore.

I read that coroners have said that people who self-deactivate with a glass of nicotine are easy to diagnose because they never have enough time to put the glass back down after drinking. Nicotine has toxicity in the vicinity of cyanide.

Dr.Bob - 29-10-2014 at 12:55

Children are poisoning themselves with people's e-cig refills lately, which are mostly nicotine and its salts in an organic/water solvent mix. Too many people don't realize how toxic nicotine is when ingested, and leave the bottle around children. Very sad situation, but you can certainly still buy nicotine at lethal doses, just not as a bug poison now.

jock88 - 29-10-2014 at 13:22

It was used back in the day for tape worms in sheep too. Some Nicotine Sulphate + Copper Sulphate. Not much room for error in the dose. Slightly too much and you had far too much mutton to eat for the next month.

Metacelsus - 29-10-2014 at 16:19

I wouldn't eat mutton from a poisoned, tapeworm-infested sheep!

j_sum1 - 29-10-2014 at 21:58

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese

I wouldn't eat mutton from a poisoned, tapeworm-infested sheep!

Now there's a quotation for you!

I Like Dots - 30-10-2014 at 11:32

Heres another one I have Rotenone

http://imgur.com/IRecSkq