Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Trace in soap making

deltaH - 16-9-2014 at 12:15

This might seem like a trivial question, but one which I am battling to find a reliable answer to (Google is sleeping on the couch tonight).

Some small intro first:

In soap making, the very important initial stage where the reagents reach a custard-like consistency (also the stage when they won't separate if left in a mold to react fully), is called trace.

The name suggests that it is... well... trace amounts of soap that has formed, but does anybody know [reliably] how much has occurred roughly speaking?

I mean, are we talking <1%, <10%, tens of %, you get the idea...

Some soap makers believe that most of the saponification has already occurred at trace, but I find this very hard to believe.

aga - 16-9-2014 at 12:33

I think the etymology of the term 'Trace' is most likely to be the point where you pull a stick through the mixture, and it has solidified enough to leave a 'Trace' in the now semi-solid mass.

When it is still Liquid enough, pulling a stick through it leaves no 'Trace' of it's passing.

Little_Ghost_again - 16-9-2014 at 13:09

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
This might seem like a trivial question, but one which I am battling to find a reliable answer to (Google is sleeping on the couch tonight).

Some small intro first:

In soap making, the very important initial stage where the reagents reach a custard-like consistency (also the stage when they won't separate if left in a mold to react fully), is called trace.

The name suggests that it is... well... trace amounts of soap that has formed, but does anybody know [reliably] how much has occurred roughly speaking?

I mean, are we talking <1%, <10%, tens of %, you get the idea...

Some soap makers believe that most of the saponification has already occurred at trace, but I find this very hard to believe.


In cold process soap trace or specifically light trace is the point that oils and hydroxide have combined, saponifaction has not yet completed and can in fact take 5-8 weeks to complete.
Hot process is different, you go past trace (quickly) to a point that oils and hydroxide have been COOKED out and the saponafication process completed, in hot process it is still best to leave the soap for around a week, but it can be used after 24hours

Melt and pour dosnt have trace as such, its already soap but in a form you can remelt and add things, you can use it as soon as its solid.
Purest's like myself regard anything but cold process as not real soap :D except clear hard soaps, they are really only doable with the hot process

aga - 16-9-2014 at 13:20

Little_Ghost_again ?

Is the the the Ghost of Little_Ghost or just an apparition ?

deltaH - 16-9-2014 at 21:00

Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  
Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
This might seem like a trivial question, but one which I am battling to find a reliable answer to (Google is sleeping on the couch tonight).

Some small intro first:

In soap making, the very important initial stage where the reagents reach a custard-like consistency (also the stage when they won't separate if left in a mold to react fully), is called trace.

The name suggests that it is... well... trace amounts of soap that has formed, but does anybody know [reliably] how much has occurred roughly speaking?

I mean, are we talking <1%, <10%, tens of %, you get the idea...

Some soap makers believe that most of the saponification has already occurred at trace, but I find this very hard to believe.


In cold process soap trace or specifically light trace is the point that oils and hydroxide have combined, saponifaction has not yet completed and can in fact take 5-8 weeks to complete.
Hot process is different, you go past trace (quickly) to a point that oils and hydroxide have been COOKED out and the saponafication process completed, in hot process it is still best to leave the soap for around a week, but it can be used after 24hours

Melt and pour dosnt have trace as such, its already soap but in a form you can remelt and add things, you can use it as soon as its solid.
Purest's like myself regard anything but cold process as not real soap :D except clear hard soaps, they are really only doable with the hot process


Ah, another soap maker I see, you might enjoy my choline soap thread*

I hear you and am aware of this myself, but it still doesn't answer the question, roughly how much has occurred? I am very tempted to make assumptions here, but they are, to be honest, very thumb sucked. The reason I need to know, is because I am working on another chemistry idea when I want to use only a partial saponified soap and I need only 10% saponification (very roughly) so was wondering if I can simply just target trace in the methodology of that other process.

*blatant self advertisement :o targeting another soap maker :P

PS. I will be publishing those experiments as soon as I have perfected and completed the experiments.

PPS. It's AWFUL that your account and posts got deleted, I'm very upset about it on principle. While I understand the need for spam deletion, it is still a very sad thing that has occured! With any luck, it is reversible... crossing fingers for you!

[Edited on 17-9-2014 by deltaH]

Little_Ghost_again - 17-9-2014 at 07:20

Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again  
Quote: Originally posted by deltaH  
This might seem like a trivial question, but one which I am battling to find a reliable answer to (Google is sleeping on the couch tonight).

Some small intro first:

In soap making, the very important initial stage where the reagents reach a custard-like consistency (also the stage when they won't separate if left in a mold to react fully), is called trace.

The name suggests that it is... well... trace amounts of soap that has formed, but does anybody know [reliably] how much has occurred roughly speaking?

I mean, are we talking <1%, <10%, tens of %, you get the idea...

Some soap makers believe that most of the saponification has already occurred at trace, but I find this very hard to believe.


In cold process soap trace or specifically light trace is the point that oils and hydroxide have combined, saponifaction has not yet completed and can in fact take 5-8 weeks to complete.
Hot process is different, you go past trace (quickly) to a point that oils and hydroxide have been COOKED out and the saponafication process completed, in hot process it is still best to leave the soap for around a week, but it can be used after 24hours

Melt and pour dosnt have trace as such, its already soap but in a form you can remelt and add things, you can use it as soon as its solid.
Purest's like myself regard anything but cold process as not real soap :D except clear hard soaps, they are really only doable with the hot process


Ah, another soap maker I see, you might enjoy my choline soap thread*

I hear you and am aware of this myself, but it still doesn't answer the question, roughly how much has occurred? I am very tempted to make assumptions here, but they are, to be honest, very thumb sucked. The reason I need to know, is because I am working on another chemistry idea when I want to use only a partial saponified soap and I need only 10% saponification (very roughly) so was wondering if I can simply just target trace in the methodology of that other process.

*blatant self advertisement :o targeting another soap maker :P

PS. I will be publishing those experiments as soon as I have perfected and completed the experiments.

PPS. It's AWFUL that your account and posts got deleted, I'm very upset about it on principle. While I understand the need for spam deletion, it is still a very sad thing that has occured! With any luck, it is reversible... crossing fingers for you!

[Edited on 17-9-2014 by deltaH]


This is a tough one to answer, There is no easy way to test how far the saponifaction has gone at trace, some will have taken place but how much will depend on many factors, do you use a hand blender or do you whisk or stir? it makes a difference because of the lengh of time that the hydroxide has contact with the fats/oils.
If you want to pm me a rough guide to your idea I might be able to help. My gut feeling is trace is beyond 10%.


I have an idea how to test for this, but give me a day or so to think it through.
In theory I would imagine a few simple experiments in a test tube should give you some answers..............
I am thinking along these lines at the moment


Add known concentration and volume of hydroxide at the same temperature used in your soap process, to a known volume of a single oil. stir then at a set time stop the reaction (maybe add acid???).
Actually this is flawed, but the point is to do several tests at different lenghs of time for the stiring then titrate to get the SP number.


OR

if you need to do something or add something at 10%, maybe you could just add 10% of the hydroxide stir until completely combined, do your thing then add the rest of the hydroxide.
Sorry but all guess work without knowing what your trying to do. Yes I come from a long long line of soap makers lol.
I use all three soap making processes but my favorite is cold process! I also make my own melt and pour bases. It was the soap making that got me into chemistry

deltaH - 17-9-2014 at 08:29

Yes, I too was thinking about a similar experiment, just thought someone here may at some time seen a reliable source to this where I failed to find any, it doesn't hurt to ask :)

It's fine, there's always a plan B is just to make the pure soap, then add it as 10% with the oil and use it quickly after adding the base. In the next step, this will all be mixed with an acidic solution, so will neutralise and so little additional saponification should have occured.