Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Plasmon-resonant fibers as plasma electrode filter

DonEM - 21-7-2014 at 04:58

If a noisy oscillation is set up through a plasma stream, will nano-fibers of the proper dimensions (for the proper plasmon-resonant frequency) coating the electrode create a notch filter for current-density waves in the plasma current? I.e., can I pink white noise in the current stream with nano-fiber coating on at least one of the electrode conductors?

This is RF work for sure, but perhaps more HV impulse, as in the output of a spiral pulse generator (of extremely high dV/dt in kiloVolts per nanosecond).

I suppose my question may boil down to "will surface plasmons modulate the current repulsed by the surface into the ion plasma stream to the other electrode?"

Or maybe, "Can the slope of the SPG impulse rise-time be dampened/enhanced by surface plasmons?" (As measured in the plasma current stream.)

I am only a bright enthusiast in the dumb-phase of a device-design to test non-ferrous inductive elements in the path of the plasma stream.

Be straight, be gentle.

[The retired-programmer type]

aga - 23-7-2014 at 11:22

Straight answer - no idea.

It's more physics really.
Have you built a spiral pulse generator ?

The questions suggest the need for experimentation, and if there are no relevant answers around, then you need to do the experiments to find out.

Praxichys - 23-7-2014 at 11:55

What prevents the nano-fibers from transmitting/recieving at their resonant frequency, since they will also be pumped with the same white noise the plasma stream is being pumped at?

Why not filter with an out of phase version of your white noise generator? I assume the notch is designed to pass any changes to the white noise. Or am I missing something?

DonEM - 24-7-2014 at 05:36

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
Straight answer - no idea.

It's more physics really.
Have you built a spiral pulse generator ?

The questions suggest the need for experimentation, and if there are no relevant answers around, then you need to do the experiments to find out.


Right... I'm designing the experiment yet --optimizing my shoestring budget... and reading a lot about physics experiments, which talk to me.

I've a number of nice shafts from old printers/scanners that will allow me to roll the simple double-capacitor with even tension on the foils/films to make an SPG.

The design will lean toward optimizing the leading edge for the load-coupling performance needed for the experiment (way out of scope for electronics forums).

The Army got the SPG to one million volts, with hellacious skew rates in nanoseconds. These are rough notes on mostly patent links on SPGs (and other vector inversion patents), plus some scratch links...

http://portal.groupkos.com/index.php?title=Spiral_pulse_gene...

The rise-time depends on a high-impedance circuit to reach high-voltage, and a plasma-discharge seems ideal.

Plus, it seems safer to experiment with radar-frequencies in a plasma chamber to avoid X-rays. Think evacuated peanut-butter jar vacuum chamber --nothing academic or sophisticated, just a home shop. Lots on youtube for cheap(ish) DIY vacuum solutions, pumps, gauges, etc.

Can you share anything about plasma work in this context?

DonEM - 24-7-2014 at 06:42

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  
What prevents the nano-fibers from transmitting/recieving at their resonant frequency, since they will also be pumped with the same white noise the plasma stream is being pumped at?


About nano-fiber afforded plasmon resonance frequency stability in a plasma current...

I'm not sure what loading factor the plasma really places upon the plasmon resonance (the conducting electrons resonating in wavelets).

I read there are a several types of plasma currents, like free-electrons traveling ballistically (between ionizing collisions), and then there is the ion-current. Each current in the plasma will have its respective natural resonance in the system, per wikipedia.

Part of the experiment's purpose will be to map out these plasma frequencies. The other part is to apply that knowledge and know-how to a study of materials and shapes toward macro-virtual-particle adventures (very small to man, but giant partcles to thin film patterned enticement in 3D). It's hobby madness.

And I certainly know that I AM MISSING a lot of things, know-how and knowledge. (Besides missing some sense.) Please feel free to brain-storm. Science madness loves co-madness.

However, while putting some thought on your reply, and aga (thanks) it comes to me I was barking up the wrong tree assuming the 'filter quality' of the plasma-stream was the point in the technology.

So, I should if I could start the thread over all ready. 'Nano-fibers' ---> should be ---> 'nano-structures,' and 'filtering' ---> should be ---> 'wave group transmission' (something-on-a-patent-I-saw'). This proves I'm an amateur.


Thanks for the suggestions... more response to follow in context, re.: wave-group resonators as wide-spectrum wave-channels' (my desparate terms).

DonEM - 24-7-2014 at 07:10

Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  

Why not filter with an out of phase version of your white noise generator? [CR]

I assume the notch is designed to pass any changes to the white noise. [CR]

Or am I missing something?


If I were brutally honest with myself, Praxichys, I know I am 'missing something.' (Just ask my Sisters!)

Thank you for the 'phase-shift' (to cancel the noise?) suggestion!

What I had failed to (yet) mention is that the experimental device is designed to be the maximized-as-humanly-possible-(and then some) high-frequency tera-Hertz noise source. The purpose will be to create magnetic fields in certain shapes/velocities.

The device is being designed to optimize the noise, to several octaves of power above the base frequency of a noisy ring oscillator. My question about a plasmonic-filter seems silly now that I reviewed the whole project purpose (after:) I posted a diarrhetic question.

Everything about this bucket-list project has been a reverse-engineering of what a friend shared before his brain faded after a big cerebral stroke.

Now I get it! I think I was wrong about what I was trying to design the experiment to do (on the plasmonic-resonance attentuation).

I am only designing, so far, on the black-box level, and I am an experimentalist, not a scientist, nu uh (wannabe scientist, retired, ADHD fortified bucket list adventures in the high desert). Plus, the black boxes needs be household grocery change-affordable. (Think Michael Faraday on power-MOSFETs.)

The entire interested-audience, though, may number at least from zero to a dozen people.

The same device is still in question, but it now seems really obvious (yet-another-mini-epiphany) that I need a different experimental design consideration than a 'filter.'

These epiphanies are when my self-learning goes, "Ah ha! That's what they teach in graduate classes!"

Wow. This forum has powerful juices.


Tanx!!!

Metacelsus - 24-7-2014 at 07:24

I'm not sure that this forum is the best place to find the information you need (though I may be wrong). Although we do have a few physicist-types, most of our expertise is in chemistry. May I suggest 4hv.org?

As for me, I have no idea. I did make a crude spiral pulse generator once (out of aluminum foil and polypropylene sheeting), but it was pretty wimpy and very unreliable.

DonEM - 24-7-2014 at 07:37

I'd like to close this thread on the basis of non-sensical context of the question. The question may relate to something, but I realize it didn't relate to the device I'm trying to design as a friend shared he had done.

This thread's question pertained to what conducting electron resonant patterns in conducting nano-fibers as an electrode surface could do to the qualities of a signal in a plasma conductor.

Scope of device:

The experimental device is to optimize everything about EM resonance toward tera-hertz stability with a programmatic interface of many octave lower, and real-time phase-lock on subtle nuclear harmonics (like the new quantum-atom clocks to that distribute frequency-division-error-real-time).

So, rather than a quantum-resonant (plasmonic) attenuating filter, the desired affordance the nano-tech was used for (reverse engineering of a dying friends disclosure) would have been a broad-spectrum clarity, or fidelity-of-coupling that is not asymmetrically loaded by the hosting system.

I'm not really qualified enough to discuss the concept I've seen in a patent wherein inductive-transparency (as this design needs) is afforded by a cluster of individual signal paths in a set conductors sized in diameter in a summation sequence. (Fibonacci sequence diameter span.) Somehow (way beyond me) when golden ratio separated frequency-notches are provided, as a cluster of notch frequencies a conductor will host, then there's some golden-magic at the destination of the conductor that re-creates the entire spectral envelop of the source signal from the Fib. set transmitted.


Thanks, and I'm sorry, for the noise.

DonEM - 24-7-2014 at 08:28

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese  

As for me, I have no idea. I did make a crude spiral pulse generator once (out of aluminum foil and polypropylene sheeting), but it was pretty wimpy and very unreliable.


Thanks for offering the materials you used, CC.

What is your opinion of SPG behavior if an A.C. power-signal is applied to the 'input' side of the double-spiral capacitor?

I think I 'grokked' some of the patents (especially one of the Army patents) to mean that the output-slope is a function of the shorting-slope of the charged double-cap, multiplied many times by the translation of the voltage on the output half of the double-capacitor.

So, 'shorting' through ground by an opposite charge should double the input slope, and produce an output that should also establish positive and negative swings as one bipolar pulse.

Am I missing something before I invest in two rolls of alum. foil and a couple rolls of polyproylene, hoping to test an A.C. SPG?

If bipolar operation doesn't work as hoped, it just means I need to build two SPGs per push-pull output, and use a pair of MOSFETs as a half-bridge, verses a fast H-bridge encapsulating an A.C. SPG version.

Wouldn't using 2 qty. SPGs of the monopolar-version (single-polarity pulse) make the max-freq. of the system twice as high, too, (maybe?)

I mean, for a given power-consumption to recharge the caps between pulses, wouldn't the mono-pulse pair have twice the current flowing to recharge for the next pulse, vs. one A.C. SPG doing double-polarity-time on the same dielectric?

Seems too that but a little bit of foot-print on a enhanced gallium nitride (eGaN, by EPC) super-transistor could have its gate slamed shut in nanoseconds by an on-chip vector-translation (Blumlein pulse shaper) burned into the eGaN architecture (which is a monolithic transistor).

The simple SPGs I'm negotiating ataboy-points with my sweetie, toward grocery budget reallocation, will configure as a high-voltage 3-phase push-pull supply. I'd like to toggle maybe +/- six volts on the SPG input, and wrap a high enough K for an output translation high enough to ionize partially evacuated air in a <s>peanut-butter</s> glass-jar. This will cross-fire phase-sections to implement a ring oscillator that produces a rotary-firing of the SPG ring through a floating center-node of the plasma chamber -- if the design ever evolves that far in versioned-prototypes (dragging along my learning curve). Characters welcome!

The floating center-point of the (rotating) 3-phase A.C. signal approaching on a plane through the plasma is anticipated to function as a frequency multiplier driven by timing functions of the phase components. This is demonstrated in the cross-fire reactor using asymmetric phase timing to generate 4th order harmonics in the shared-center of the multi-phasic system (a spoked wave guide, like a wagon wheel, with spokes not evenly spaced around center).


Tanx for the thoughts.

Metacelsus - 24-7-2014 at 09:17

As far as I know, spiral pulse generators only work when charged with a high voltage DC source (I used 7.5 kV), and then quickly triggered (I used a spark gap, but krytrons are ideal). You might get it to work with lower voltage, but you'll need to switch insanely fast. Getting a homemade spiral pulse generator to work even marginally is not easy.

If you put AC voltage across one, it will just behave like a normal capacitor.

Go ask on 4hv, you'll get a more in-depth answer.

[Edited on 24-7-2014 by Cheddite Cheese]

aga - 24-7-2014 at 13:08

I'm curious : what's the actual objective ?
High energy shaped/focussed EM pulses ?
RF burns are nasty, so beware.

Metacelsus - 24-7-2014 at 18:30

Let me repeat: RF burns ARE nasty (I've only had one very minor one, about 2 square millimeters, but it taught me that much).

DonEM - 25-7-2014 at 03:40

Quote: Originally posted by aga  
I'm curious : what's the actual objective ?


Objective: attempting to stabilize magnetic fields by their own inductive structures in a 3D field. The structure forms 'within' the resonant envelope, for whatever that means.

The delicacy of the resonance to be balanced upon its own center point of oscillation swings will be critical, and lots of tuning and reckoning out the kinks.

The energy model guiding the design (METAPHORICALLY ANYWAY, WITH SOME PRINCIPLES SUGGESTED) may be akin to the toroidal currents that simulations show may occur when the plasma mass of a star when it collapses under its own weight during super nova. This gets way deep into things I'm not even qualified to talk about... like the fact that the magnetic field intensifies, and the polarized magnetic medium carries also much energy as the literal sonic thunder of the entire stellar collapse. As a star shrinks <b><i>toward</i></b> infinite compression, the 'thunder in the polarized medium' approaches perhaps the same zone of coherence that cold-fusion researchers have observed.

My hay-seed intuition on steroids highlights the mechanism of ball lightning with synaesthetic sparkles.

The parallel model in the nano-tech world of science may be called a Skyrme boson. This too is mathematically way beyond me, making this a project that best is served by a stone-soup confab. I've not a clue how to organize a confab, academics can't go there with Newton in tow, and the coherence of the nuclear phonon with the EM envelope is crazy talk if you ask them.

If the Skyrmion, which is a hedgehog of charges, with a monopole-dielectric-charge-dot in the center of a magnetic vortex, is found in nano-film by scanning neutron beams.

Frank Znidarsic theorizes a solution to cold fusion frequencies and the resonant frequency Eugene Podkletnov, Ph.D discovered is the same scale-resonance. Podkletnov used a super spinning conductor. Cold fusion data was about oscillating platinum atoms that found that phononic coupling with the nucleus.

The phonon is the jello-like settling-time-of-a-disturbance of the nucleus. The black body energy of a matter lattice is literally the summation of all the stored phononic energy of the atoms. The phonon is the thermal energy storage dwell.

New science way beyond textbooks of graduate-level degrees is wrestling with the fact that the quantum model is Newton's figment. But will academia-mindset ever state that the duration of the quantum transition is not instantaneous, and that therefore, because it really in reality is not instantaneous, and therefore, a mathematical artifact is generated by the non-confluent model of the quantum that appears to be (drum roll) the fine grain structure of the universe.

I.e., Planck's constant appears everywhere in quantum physics because the non-confluent model of antique citational hierarchy creates the mathematical artifact, everywhere the non-confluence is maintained to remain citationally connected all the way back to Newtonian nobility --if you ask this hayseed, anyway.

This new science is sprouting everywhere... but the disciplines have yet to learn to communicate across disparate terms.

The nuclear phonon and the EM photonic energy find strata of matching speeds that produce the valence radii of the stratified electron cloud --per Frank Znidarsic's (EE) explanation.

Please do not think I attack academia because I'm not degreed and am dumb. These things ARE the struggle science always goes through when people do science by defense (of a thesis).

DonEM - 25-7-2014 at 03:53

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese  
Let me repeat: RF burns ARE nasty (I've only had one very minor one, about 2 square millimeters, but it taught me that much).


Add cataracts as another possible symptom caused by low level RF.

Plus, a spiral pulse generator could kill a human in a moment... very lethal potentials.

My God! I had never googled RF burns! Thank you, Cheddite for the safety issue.

A Faraday cage seems totally sensible for all the tests, until the parameters are set for some more dangerous phases.

But, the magnetic effects of cancellation resonance reach out very far. Helical Birkeland currents carrying current as plasma particles offset-their helical phase-spacing to cancel their own internal magnetic field, which cancellation throws the magnetic field of the Birkeland currents far out into space.

So, prudence seems to dictate that dangerous tests occur isolated in a mine, down a well, or on an isolated desert patch. I'm in the middle of high desert and hope to put the extended magnetic field tests where only some skinks and pack rats will be affected. Telemetry, remote control... expense, more delays... I love this retirement! They say that keeping a project alive will promote long life. Hell, I should live a few centuries by that reasoning, for all the work yet to do --to do this properly.