Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Aromatic OTC products?

Electra - 12-4-2014 at 16:44

I have some experiments that I wish to do that require various aromatic compounds. So far all I have is Toluene and Xylene. Seeking out Benzene(yes I know "carcinogenic"!), but it seems very expensive online. Can anyone else suggest any easy to get aromatic compounds that are loaded with side chains? Additionally, anyone know a reliable OTC source of benzene?

gdflp - 12-4-2014 at 16:47

You could try to distill gasoline, though breaking the azeotropes might be difficult to get benzene. Check out the benzene sticky thread in the Organic Chemistry section.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 12-4-2014 at 16:59

US based, or elsewhere? There are a lot of readily available fragrance molecules with aromatic groups and side chains of all sorts. Things like phenylacetic acid, coumarin, anisaldehyde, diphenyl oxide... anything specific you're looking for? All online, but not terribly costly, I think.

http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/c-88-aroma-and-flavor-mo...
http://www.creatingperfume.com
http://www.perfumersworld.com/listproducts.php?maingroup=Aro... (This one's Thailand-based but ships to US. Click "Aroma Materials" on the left to browse)

I am not familiar with any OTC source for benzene, sorry. One could synthesize it?

Mr_Magnesium - 12-4-2014 at 17:09

How about

Toluene oxidation to benzoic acid
Benzoic acid decarboxylation to benzene

Phenol is another aromatic compound that can be made from OTC aspirin.

Electra - 12-4-2014 at 17:23

I was thinking about making benzene.

When I say OTC sources I meant sources where I can walk in a store and buy them. On the net in the USA there are an infinite supply of various chems I could use for this reaction. If I'm going the online route, USA is irrelevant since I have good relationships with foreign suppliers that can get me most of these goods for cheaper prices than in the USA, and more often than not deliver them faster than the US sources could. Ordering chems online is just a hassle.

I have somewhat of a fascination with figuring out the various compounds I can make from strictly OTC store-bought products. It has so much more mystique to it than ordering chems online.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 12-4-2014 at 17:53

I'm aware of what OTC means, but the fact that you were searching for benzene online threw me.

How about salicylic acid from aspirin tablets, vanillin from artificial vanilla flavoring (or regular vanilla flavoring with a whole lot of other things), benzaldehyde from artificial almond flavoring, and aromatic FD&C dyes from food coloring.

macckone - 12-4-2014 at 18:06

Gasoline is not a good source of benzene.
Benzene is restricted for use in gasoline due to it's carcinogenic nature (.62%).
However gasoline is a good source of toluene and xylene.
Separating the toluene and xylene is probably not going to be
an easy task. Of course getting the toluene from gasoline,
oxidizing it and then decarboxylating would yield benzene.

Zephyr - 12-4-2014 at 18:50

Benzaldehyde is a good starting point for aromatic chemistry and can be obtained OTC as almond flavoring. The type I have can be bought at a grocery store for $6 per 60ml and is 78% benzaldehyde and the remainder is ethanol. This can be easily purified by distillation as benzaldehyde's boiling point is 178.1 °C. Benzaldehyde can be oxidized to benzoic acid which can then be used to make benzene. Another use of benzaldehyde is hydrogenating it to benzyl alcohol. Benzaldehyde can also make cinnimic acid by the addition of sodium acetate and acetic anhydride.

Bert - 12-4-2014 at 18:58

Quote: Originally posted by Electra  
I was thinking about making benzene.


If you search the site, you'll find a thread on completely OTC synthesis of a benzene based chemical that starts out with benzene produced from OTC materials- Benzoic acid and Sodium hydroxide.

IrC - 12-4-2014 at 23:07

You could walk into a walmart and buy cans of CRC Electronic cleaner, just under $5, fairly pure Hexane.

Fantasma4500 - 13-4-2014 at 07:40

and benzoic acid is as simple as benzoates (pyro chemicals site, food addition benzoate?) with HCl

not to mention you could take the benzoic acid and heat up with some copper salts in it to catalyse the pyrolysis into phenol which could then be distilled in full metal setup

Electra - 13-4-2014 at 12:26

Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
Quote: Originally posted by Electra  
I was thinking about making benzene.


If you search the site, you'll find a thread on completely OTC synthesis of a benzene based chemical that starts out with benzene produced from OTC materials- Benzoic acid and Sodium hydroxide.


I am very well aware of how to make benzene from benzoic acid, though I am running into one issue. I can't find any constant source that tells what temperature the sodium salt needs to be heated. Some sites say very high temperatures (500+) are needed, others say very mild temperatures are needed and CO2 will evolve. Does anyone have experience with this?

Bert - 13-4-2014 at 12:45

Oddly enough, a procedure was shown in the thread I refer to. Complete with pictures of the home made dry distilling aparatus, yields and percantage of theory.

Pickardjr - 13-4-2014 at 14:38

http://youtu.be/sYyw_hrXrZ8

Dr.Bob - 13-4-2014 at 17:36

Benzene is hard to find OTC, due to cancer suspect nature. That effectively keeps companies from using it in anything sold OTC. Getting much harder to get, even in a lab, due to OSHA, EPA, etc. We use small amounts of it, but have to get safety sign off that it is needed, and other solvents won't work. But there are few things that it will do that can't be done with toluene. That is available in many paint removers, cleaners, rubber cement thinner, etc. Good luck.

Bert - 13-4-2014 at 18:57

One of my favorite lube/penetrating/parts unsticking/icky sticky gunk removal products is Kano Kroil.

It's just listed as "proprietary ingredients" in the MSDS- But it sure SMELLS like Benzene...

Ax165Xj - 13-4-2014 at 19:03

Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
You could walk into a walmart and buy cans of CRC Electronic cleaner, just under $5, fairly pure Hexane.


By the way, hexane isn't aromatic.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 13-4-2014 at 19:17

Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
One of my favorite lube/penetrating/parts unsticking/icky sticky gunk removal products is Kano Kroil.

It's just listed as "proprietary ingredients" in the MSDS- But it sure SMELLS like Benzene...

If this is it, there's not much if any benzene. If the proprietary part was benzene, it would trigger regulatory disclosures in the appropriate section and the infamous "known to the State of California to cause cancer" line at the very least.

EDIT: There'll be plenty of aromatics, though, which can smell like benzene.

[Edited on 4-14-2014 by Etaoin Shrdlu]

Bert - 13-4-2014 at 19:24

I remember what Hoppes smelled like before benzene was removed (and it quit working super well). Kroil has a similar smell... Love to run analysis on it, know anyone with the gear and the time?

What CA doesn't know won't hurt them, in this case.

In the meantime, I've got quite a bit of Sodium benzoate and some benzoic acid on hand for pyrotechnic uses.

Etaoin Shrdlu - 13-4-2014 at 19:34

I can't unfortunately. We have a GC...but don't use the machine. Ever. It was acquired for one specific project then never touched again and it's not capable of the resolution we need for current analyses so we just send everything out as it sits untouched in a corner. Hopefully that'll change this year.

I'd be surprised to find benzene in a non-aerosol lubricant/penetrating oil since it evaporates very rapidly, but perhaps it was added for flow purposes. One never knows. If you have some on hand you could try to see if anything distills off around benzene's boiling temperature.

Electra - 14-4-2014 at 00:14

Benzene is hard to find in store but it is not hard to find online..... though it is incredibly expensive online.... $80 for 500ml including shipping on ebay for instance, ridiculous for such a simple compound. There are other USA sites but you're still looking at stupid rates unless you purchase 20L.

I think the talk about the carcinogenic dangers of benzene are largely overhyped. Many substances are carcinogenic. I think the benzene got so much bad stigma because it was found in food products. As long as you're not drinking it straight or inhaling the fumes, I really think there is no danger. People have used it to wash their hands before without issue. If acetone or toluene had been found in food products, they would probably have a similar stigma.

Bert, do you happen to have the link to that thread you mentioned? I did some searching but it must not have been good enough due to my lack of results.