hyfalcon - 3-4-2014 at 14:27
Get it while it's hot!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EXPANDED-TITANIUM-MESH-STRETCHED-SCR...
Zyklon-A - 3-4-2014 at 15:11
Thanks for showing that to me, I just bought one!
Mailinmypocket - 3-4-2014 at 19:04
I wonder where this person gets their MMO... I bought a piece two years ago and he has it on and off, same stuff always... But I'm curious as to where
it comes from! Sometimes they have some and other times absolutely nothing to sell on their page...
Get it while it's hot!!
Zyklon-A - 3-4-2014 at 19:12
Either way, it's a great price, If you think about all the chlorate, perchlorate, persulfates and pyrosulfate you can make with it.
[Edited on 4-4-2014 by Zyklonb]
Mailinmypocket - 3-4-2014 at 19:31
Taking chlorate to perchlorate with them with destroy them from what I remember. Platinized titanium or platinum wire anodes are required for that
goodness 
Zyklon-A - 3-4-2014 at 19:39
Oh, yeah, I was thinking if Pt.... Still I only planned on chlorate anyway. I have about 2 lbs of perchlorate right now.
macckone - 3-4-2014 at 20:19
yes thanks I bought two.
hyfalcon - 4-4-2014 at 02:33
One thing I have to warn you about. You have to give these anodes a good soak in HCl/H2O2 to get the deposits off this material, but it comes out of
an overnight soak absolutely blue black in color. Not a thing wrong with the anode material.
Zyklon-A - 4-4-2014 at 04:04
How concentrated does the hydrogen peroxide need to be? I ran out of all concentrations exept 3%.
sbbspartan - 4-4-2014 at 07:22
I've never actually used hydrogen peroxide to clean them before. I just let them soak overnight in 30% HCl, and they come out perfectly clean. The
orange powder is gone and the resistance goes way down.
His sheets have definitely been used before though. There are certain spots where the mmo coating has worn off, and the titanium metal is visible.
However, at the price he's selling them at, it's hard to complain.
Fantasma4500 - 4-4-2014 at 07:38
you can heat it on low heat setting just below boiling point of water to remove water, vacuum or a fan sucking out water will increase evaporation
rate alot
a phone charger connected to a computer fan shooting air upwards placed on top of a beaker is incredibly k3wlish but seems to increase evaporation
rate at least 2 times, possibly 4 times
gregxy - 4-4-2014 at 09:38
It looks like you can get new anodes in various shapes direct from China. (much more than most of us can use)
There is also platinum plated Ti.
http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=prod...
sbbspartan - 4-4-2014 at 10:09
I've bought MMO anodes, platinum anodes, and lead dioxide anodes from China/Alibaba before. At minimum, the best price I could get on MMO was roughly
2-3 times as expensive as what Laserred sells it for, even in semi-bulk.
If anyone is interested, I sent laserred a quick email with some questions. Here's his response ---
"I bought them several years ago at an industrial auction, no idea what they were used for or if they were even used at all. They had years of dust on
them from storage so they'd been sitting around for quite awhile. That being said, what I have now is all I have and can't get any more."
He has a bit over 200 sheets left.
macckone - 7-4-2014 at 14:07
My two sheets just arrived and they looked pristine condition.
I don't think they have ever been used.
I plan on ordering more.
They only last so long.
Mailinmypocket - 7-4-2014 at 17:47
Last batch of chlorate made with this sellers MMO anode (probably my 15th batch), these anodes are, as they would say, "the bomb". 293g in 48 hours,
not bad
Zyklon-A - 7-4-2014 at 18:00
Wow! Nice, I'm running a small test run as I type. Less than 120 grams of KCl, which can produce a maximum of 192 grams of chlorate, if there are no
losses, which is an unrealistic assumption.
BobD1001 - 7-4-2014 at 19:31
Mailinmypocket, How have the anodes held up over that time, have you had to use several strips or still on the original? Mind sharing the dimensions
of your anode/cathode, cell size, and current?
I have purchased two sheets of MMO sheet from Laserred, and I recently borrowed a friends shear press to cut a few strips out of the sheet, several 1"
wide, and a few 2" wide. Pretty exciting to see how beautiful a product they can produce!
Mailinmypocket - 7-4-2014 at 21:34
Firstly, the set up itself is quite crude. Both anode and cathode are made of MMO, cathode is a bit wider but I don't have the measurements on hand
right now. I will post them later. If I had to say? The anode is about 1-1.5 inches wide and the cathode perhaps 2-2.5 wide. They are not welded to
titanium since I have/had no access to welding that type of thing so the MMO just protrudes through the top of the ziplock 750ml tall round container.
Like these:
http://www.ziploc.com/Products/Pages/TwistLocContainers.aspx...
Anyways... It holds 750ml of liquid and runs on a modified PC power supply, 5v 10A I believe it is. These containers hold up amazingly well to the hot
cell liquor after repeated runs and I have only cut two pieces of MMO from the original sheet, which are the electrode I still use now. They don't
seem to have degraded at all. Throwing in some potassium dichromate helps greatly.
I'll post more details when I'm actually around the parts to measure. It's very simple to build a crude cell that makes chlorate easily though...
Dichromate, PC power supply, almost saturated KCl, let run... Top off when the liquid gets low with some slightly acidified KCl... Let run... Continue
and after a day or two you have a thick layer of chlorate.
I did find that the electrodes were further apart from each other at the bottom of the cell, so making some Teflon "string" by twisting Teflon tape
made for a good way to secure them at an even distance from each other... If that makes sense.
Zyklon-A - 9-4-2014 at 08:10
Mine has been running for about two days now, but the solution has turned yellow. Is this normal? The yellow stuff is completely soluble, I've tried
filtering a few times, but only white potassium chlorate is left behind. It's running on about 5.3 volts and 4.9-5.1 amps, the solution stays at
about 55°C by itself so every 8 hours or so, I Pour it into a beaker, and heat it till boiling for about 5 minutes, to disproportionate the
hypochrite- ion to chlorate and more chloride:
3 KOCl → 2 KCl + KClO3.
It's actually quite dark yellow. Like piss yellow. At this moment, I'm not really worried about it, just wondering what's happening, as long as it
makes pure chlorate and the MMO doesn't deteriorate, I'm happy.
[EDIT] It's a MMO anode and cathode, BTW.
[Edited on 9-4-2014 by Zyklonb]
hyfalcon - 9-4-2014 at 17:18
That's whatever process coated out on the MMO. Remember, this is USED MMO. So whatever process it was in before that it was taken out of left some
of the process product on it that must be removed first if you don't want it contaminating your product.
Mailinmypocket - 9-4-2014 at 17:46
It always becomes yellowish after a while, even after cleaning the anodes and using the same ones many many times I have had it go yellow. Now, mind
you those times were just tests without dichromate so on a normal basis the liquid in my cell is always yellow. Why are you stopping it to boil the
solution? I mean... I understand why, but you don't need to. That's usually the way people to to convert bleach to chlorate via metathesis.
Have you checked out woelens page on chlorate cells?
Zyklon-A - 9-4-2014 at 18:27
I did read it a while ago, I will read it again though. I soaked the anode in HCl for about two hours, does it need to be in there for longer? I
don't know why I boiled it, I wont do it anymore.
Mailinmypocket - 9-4-2014 at 19:19
I think that should be okay if you need to clean them. Never did it myself though. Honestly when I received mine from laserred two years ago they were
never cleaned. Just cut to size and built into a cell. They seemed to work very well so I never bothered cleaning them. They get scrubbed with water
and a toothbrush after a run just to clear off the salt and what have you.
Zyklon-A - 9-4-2014 at 20:25
Ok, I'm starting to see many small crystals of potassium chlorate falling out of solution! Many thanks Mailinmypocket and everyone else for you help.
hyfalcon - 10-4-2014 at 04:41
The HCl/H2O2 mix I used after cleaning about 8 of lasered's electrodes looks like week old piss from someone that was dehydrated. This solution
started out water clear. I'm sure I have SOME titanium compounds from the limited exposure of the edges where these were cut, but it would be a very
limited amount. I'm curious what it might actually be.
MrHomeScientist - 10-4-2014 at 06:46
What does everyone need such huge amounts of chlorate for, anyway? I see all these threads about chlorate cells (some very large scale), but almost
nothing about using the product for anything. I've only ever used it for the "screaming gummy bear" demo, and as a source of oxygen gas. I'm curious
to know what everyone's end use is.
hyfalcon - 10-4-2014 at 06:49
It's the feedstock for the go to oxidizer used in any large pyrotechnic display. You need lots, and lots of perchlorate for making stars and what
have you. Perchlorate, in pyrotechnics, is used in pounds not ounces.
This is just a starter kit: http://www.skylighter.com/mall/product-details.asp?id=2523&a...
[Edited on 10-4-2014 by hyfalcon]
[Edited on 10-4-2014 by hyfalcon]
[Edited on 10-4-2014 by hyfalcon]
Zyklon-A - 10-4-2014 at 07:18
Exactly what hyfalcon said, I use lots of chlorate and perchlorate in fireworks.
MrHomeScientist - 10-4-2014 at 07:32
Interesting, I've never worked with pyrotechnics. Thanks for the info.
Varmint - 10-4-2014 at 08:02
The danger is stopping at Chlorate.
Consider:
Chlorates are like hyperactive children, ready to go off with the greatest of ease (sensitivity), surrendering it's 3 oxygens ever too easily. In
fact, according to some studies, even spontaniously (especially when sulfur is present).
Perchlorates are like the big burly older brother, it takes significantly less to get "him" upset, but when he does, he's got 4 oxygens to do battle
with.
This makes perchlorates much safer to use, but there is one place chlorates still reign supreme: Pyrotechnic colors. Chlorates and well established
formulas tend to produce richer, more vibrant colors. There are of course the same range of colors available when using perchlorates, but they tend
to me more washed out and less vibrant.
Interestingly, the chlorate color formulas tend to be more simple, while the perchlorates tend to be more complex, this is a direct offshoot of trying
to produce richer colors with perchlorates.
DAS
hyfalcon - 10-4-2014 at 11:03
Here's something to go with at pretty good prices too.
http://www.aedenterprises.com/Titanium/CPGrade2Sheet.htm
Fantasma4500 - 15-4-2014 at 07:37
i suppose varmint meant it takes significantly MORE to get 'him upset, just in case anybody didnt figure that out themselves
ive ordered home a 5V 20A (i recall i to be?) power supply and hope to get something going some day again, ill try adding some sodium dichromate
solution to it and just scrape out the KClO3 this time instead of boiling the solution, which when i get to think about it is quite counter-productive
im gonna try with glass container topped off with seemingly acryl lid, where the titanium strips leading to MMO and Ti plate will be heated then
pushed through the lid, secured with epoxy, then have a handy rock holding it down, perhaps have this thing sealed in a big plastic bag with dilute
NH4OH (yes.. that stuff is extremely handy) to catch the chlorine gasses, not sure if im gonna go with leading it through anything this time to catch
the gasses.. it can be done so easily youknow
not doing it without lid because of the fact that ClO with NH4OH creates not just chloramines but also hydrazine at one point which is just entirely
no go
about sulfur with chlorate.. i recall reading something about chinese use KClO3 Al and S in their firecrackers, im supposing the reason this is
do-able is because there is no H2SO4 within the sulfur they use, lets not mention bombay ''event'' where they used many TONNES of that mixture
you cant just mix many tonnes of that stuff with LUCK..
im thinking that if you dumped sulfur into toluene while boiling it all, then added some NH4OH (ammonia is possibilities!) and shook it around, then
poured off the liquid to be re-used for another batch it could potentially destroy all the H2SO4 stuck intercrystalline in the sulfur
perhaps ballmilling sulfur with 1-2% CaCO3?
Zyklon-A - 15-4-2014 at 08:27
My first batch of chlorate is done, yields were about 80% based on the amount of initial chloride added in the beginning. Since it was such a
small batch (~30 grams), I have not bothered with re-crystallization, but will combine it with my next batch, and re-crystallize then.
My cell operated at only 45-60*C, so I boiled it to disproportionate any potential hypochlorite. I hope to get a good PSU soon, but until then,
I'll just have to deal with bad yields, slow runs, and the need to boil it.
I have 10 lbs of 90% sulfur with 10% bentonite, which is acid free I believe. I have done several hammer tests with potassium chlorate, and it has
never gone off.
hyfalcon - 15-4-2014 at 10:09
Look, I don't know how many times I'm gonna have to repeat myself. DON'T MIX CHLORATE AND SULFUR, PERIOD!!! It's unpredictable and too much of a
risk in fireworks.
Zyklon-A - 15-4-2014 at 10:43
Talking about a .5 gram test, I expected it to detonate, I was ready. Nothing happened though. I never mix chlorates and sulfur for real
fireworks.
Bert - 15-4-2014 at 10:47
You are mixing Sulfur and Potassium chlorate? And can't get it to fire from a steel on steel impact?
Your experience is VERY unusual.
