Sciencemadness Discussion Board

need your help about documentary project.

Winterlight - 21-3-2014 at 16:06

Hello. Im currently studying old case that took place 2002. and i need your knowledge with chemisty part. at this point i dont tell you any "personal" details about the case since i want neutral science answers. i will tell you rest of the story later but now i want to focus about only this part of the story. you how ever may know what case im talking about. there is very limited ammount of evidence on public and also on officials since it took place at 2002 and the site didnt have cameras and stuff, but this is fact:

-Detonation happened in mall.
-Explosive was ANNM,there is no official fact what was used as primer.
-The charge was 2-3 kilograms.
-it was packed in plastic bottle
-There were also shotgun pellets added.
-Detonator was not recovered but it was still writed in official that it was made from R/C car transmitor.
-Guy travelled over 30 kilometres with materials in backpack by foot and public transportation


thats all official stuff that is fact,rest is speculation without good proof. i have made conclusion about material that i have, that primer was probably AP.

So if we stick with the AP/ANNM setup how stabile would you consider of that?

there are 2 different stories when he setup the charge,one saying it was setup as blasting ready 16 kilometres from the site.

Second eyewitness claimed that the bomb was setup at the site,in shopping mall toilet,second floor.

the story goes that the guy was in second floor and went to first floor with elevator,then putted the bomb on ground and sitted on bench,little bit later it was moved ON trash can and boom.

Another eyewitness tells that after it was putted on trashcan the guy went away and few seconds later came back and then it detonated.

There was no cameras so its hard to tell what is true.

now you know the story pretty much and now i need the help.

how stabile is AP/ANNM?

what you think how easily 2002 R/C car transmitor as detonator can take false singnals?

how safe is it to carry around setup ready to go off around the town with all electric equipment around?

AP/ANNM setup, is it packed usually in two different cartridges or is it just mixed as one?

What are results of mixing it together and mixing it separate cartridges?

i belive shotgun pellets were somehow around it in separate cartrigde or space but how would it react if you mix them same cartridge?

How stabile is AP and ANNM even if they are not setup?

Does the shopping mall with 2002 electonic devices have any effect on stability at all?

The fact why i see this interesting is that there are 4 different theories but none of the include any kind of chemisty explanation as backup the theory.

Metacelsus - 21-3-2014 at 16:31

Generally, we don't speculate on the manufacture of explosive devices. How do we know that you aren't just looking for information on how to blow up a shopping mall?

If you can provide more information on the case (it seems like you have it), I might be willing to comment further.

Turner - 21-3-2014 at 16:42

Who are you, it seems like English is not your primary language, what country are you from, where do you live right now? What is it that you are doing (I know making a documentary, but for what?)

Mixing AP into ANNM as one mixture is not really feasible. A detonator was probably made with AP as the primary explosive.

Although I am not sure why you want such exact details that seem to be regarding the construction of a device and detonating mechanism, are you just trying to learn to make a bomb with AP and ANNM and detonate with R/C car transmitter and receiver?

roXefeller - 21-3-2014 at 17:01

In a dream I planted a ANNM bomb in the mall...:o

NeonPulse - 21-3-2014 at 18:48

Did they catch the guy? An rc car receiver can only be used in a short distance 16km is not possible fir that. Errant signals may be able to set it off nowadays with so many different signals floating around but in 2002 not everyone had .mobiles. No way would you want to be close to 1kg+ of annm.. so as you said was possibly used as an initiator but it is not safe,stable of reliable for annm. Do you havefurther details, like where and if anyone was killed or maimed by this blast? It would be very likley.

Zephyr - 21-3-2014 at 18:57

I think that he was caught, considering the details that they know, for instance that he traveled by public transportation. And if they knew what he looked like, or even had a general description, the authorities would not have stopped until he was apprehended. Also, if he were not caught he probaboly would have attempted another attack and further increased his chances of being caught.

NeonPulse - 21-3-2014 at 19:46

Did they catch the guy? An rc car receiver can only be used in a short distance 16km is not possible fir that. Errant signals may be able to set it off nowadays with so many different signals floating around but in 2002 not everyone had .mobiles. No way would you want to be close to 1kg+ of annm.. so as you said was possibly used as an initiator but it is not safe,stable of reliable for annm. Do you havefurther details, like where and if anyone was killed or maimed by this blast? It would be very likley.

Bert - 21-3-2014 at 20:05

Quote: Originally posted by Winterlight  

thats all official stuff that is fact,rest is speculation without good proof. i have made conclusion about material that i have, that primer was probably AP.

So if we stick with the AP/ANNM setup how stabile would you consider of that?

there are 2 different stories when he setup the charge,one saying it was setup as blasting ready 16 kilometres from the site.

Second eyewitness claimed that the bomb was setup at the site,in shopping mall toilet,second floor.

the story goes that the guy was in second floor and went to first floor with elevator,then putted the bomb on ground and sitted on bench,little bit later it was moved ON trash can and boom.

Another eyewitness tells that after it was putted on trashcan the guy went away and few seconds later came back and then it detonated.

There was no cameras so its hard to tell what is true.

now you know the story pretty much and now i need the help.

how stabile is AP/ANNM?

what you think how easily 2002 R/C car transmitor as detonator can take false singnals?

how safe is it to carry around setup ready to go off around the town with all electric equipment around?

AP/ANNM setup, is it packed usually in two different cartridges or is it just mixed as one?

What are results of mixing it together and mixing it separate cartridges?

i belive shotgun pellets were somehow around it in separate cartrigde or space but how would it react if you mix them same cartridge?

How stabile is AP and ANNM even if they are not setup?

Does the shopping mall with 2002 electonic devices have any effect on stability at all?

The fact why i see this interesting is that there are 4 different theories but none of the include any kind of chemisty explanation as backup the theory.



They didn't catch him, he caught himself, or so it was thought at the time. He was on roguesci.org, we assumed it was a suicide bombing. This kid and phone, the dark side.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myyrmanni_bombing

Your questions imply you question if he intended the outcome? What do you believe instead... It is said that malice should not be assumed where ignorance or stupidity will suffice as an explanation. Particularly true of the young, I fear.

1: AP/ANNM stability?

AP is not something I would transport for 16km assembled to a charge. Or use at all. ANNM is not a terribly high risk without a sufficient detonator. Some news stories mention this kid as being associated with use HMTD instead of AP. HMTD is in some ways worse, particularly in contact with some metals.


2: I have no idea what hardware/software the firing circuit comprised, if it was a cheap, expendable toy and never intended for safety critical use, likely not a very safe system.

3: Not safe or wise to carry armed remote command IED through high RF environments!

4: Only person who knew true device particulars is believed to be dead. If AP was the detonator and ANNM was the main charge, detonator likely a small capsule or package inside a container holding main charge. Not impossible main charge was comprised of several containers in close proximity, only one of which would need to hold or be in contact with detonator.

5: Some who did not have access to NM have mixed AP directly into AN as sensitizer. If NM was available , sensible person would minimize use of the most dangerous component (the AP) in detonator only. Sensible people also believed to not carry activated remote command IED's through large RF infested modern cities or busy shopping malls-

6: Physics knowledge and desire for highest performance dictates projectiles at immediate outer edge of charge for maximum vellocity and destructive effect. Plenty of dammage still may be caused by less than optimum geometry, easier/quicker to mix projectiles into propelling charge. Witness the brothers Tsarnaev. Hard shotgun pellets with AP grinding between them possibly would go off. No chemical instability from contact of AP and common metals, if he used HMTD there could be reactivity issues

7: Same question as #1. Same answer: AP bad, ANNM not so bad. Both in same package, bad.

8: Same question, essentially as #3. Same answer: Don't know what he had or what RF was present, but one may suspect it was not a good environment for carrying around such a device.

OK. Tell us your 4 theories.


[Edited on 22-3-2014 by Bert]

Winterlight - 22-3-2014 at 01:00

Quote: Originally posted by Cheddite Cheese  
Generally, we don't speculate on the manufacture of explosive devices. How do we know that you aren't just looking for information on how to blow up a shopping mall?

If you can provide more information on the case (it seems like you have it), I might be willing to comment further.


like bert allready cracked up what case it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myyrmanni_bombing

i can translate 4 public theories to you

1)shopping mall was not decided blasting site, he was only waiting in there to come dark. this theory includes that the setup was allready made from the 16 kilometres away,and was then carried in there to wait time pass and after dark move up.

2) is that it was in purpuse in mall at the time,it was meant to planted there but the detonation was planted to do after closing time.

3) then its the suicide bombing theory,no need to say anything about that

4) is just theory that includes killing people but not suicide.

Sorry about making it look like in your eyes that i was asking advice how to do it. i even tried to find forum rules about this kind of speculation but didnt find them,you can lock this up if you think it violates rules. as fact i dont know enought chemistry even obtain the incrediments.

I belive you can now clearly understand why i asked the questions. thanks for Bert for good answer. And im sorry if i put my questions so it look like that im asking help for making one.

Metacelsus - 22-3-2014 at 04:25

OK, now I am placated.

It is plausible that the device went off by accident. ANNM is generally stable, but AP is not. If the person had a remote detonator, but was still killed in the explosion, then the explosive was probably not detonated as intended.

Mixing AP and ANNM is a bad idea, and increases the chance of a premature detonation.

PHILOU Zrealone - 22-3-2014 at 05:37

AP is very stable if you speak of Ammonium Perchlorate.

If you speak of CTAP (cyclo-triacetonperoxyde) then it is moderately stable...It is a sensitive explosive (especially to friction and shock) ...although I have some cristals left alone (1g) in a 500ml PET plastic bottle for years (10 years now)...but I don't play with them nor open the bottle.

About the mixing of ANNM with CTAP....CTAP is very very much soluble into nitromethane and the friction/shock/flame sensitivity is strongly reduced in dissolved state than in the cristal state.
I have had long time ago a 100g batch of CTAP dissolved into 100ml NM that volatilised without explosion from a strong fuse (NaClO3/C/S/CaCO3-black powder 5mm diameter and 50cm long) nor visible flame (CTAP does make a yellow glow when burning because of negative OB)...The PE plastic container was integer not even deformed by some heat...all the contain had dissapeared. It was observed from a safe distance of 50 m.

packetforger - 22-3-2014 at 11:45

Unless I am mistaken, from old roguesci.org postings (I have the archive on a local webserver as a reference) the explosive he was using was APAN (acetone peroxide mixed with ammonium nitrate - commonplace mix at the time, and very unsafe), with lead pellets as "shrapnel". Allegedly he was transporting it to set it off in a nearby forest, the shopping mall was merely on his route there.

APAN was regarded, at the time, as a "safe" way to use AP in larger charges, and also as a cheap material for blasting things. "rc" probably had no malicious intention, and was likely just wanting to see what the shrapnel effects would look like (many roguesci.org members experimented with claymore designs and the like over the years) against trees.

Personally, I regard this as a very tragic accident that occurred due to someone being incredibly incompetent with their safety procedures. I know a few people who have admitted to doing incredibly stupid things with energetics during their youth, that only in hindsight they realized put people in danger.

If it was to be a suicidebombing, why bother with a remote control detonator? The suicide bombing theory makes no sense at all, given the facts. And it being a deliberate bombing has been ruled out by most people. A tragic, utterly avoidable accident in my opinion, given the facts known.

* Also around that time there was the "phone" incident in Sweden, the kid who literally obliterated himself with absolutely massive amounts of acetone peroxide. I still remember the photo of the AP drying under lamps... Massive, terrifying heaps of it...

Bert - 22-3-2014 at 12:35

Agree, a suicide bomber seems unlikely to bother with remote controls.

Also agree that people often use inexact descriptions, calling a compound volatile or unstable instead of shock sensitive and similar.

It is a tough call. Some people get too comfortable with explosives, others are just too inexperienced to know what should worry them.

I knew a person 30 years ago who worked for a summer in a quarry where blasting was done regularly, he helped and quickly learned how safe and simple using explosives was.

The guy "borrowed" some 2 lb. sticks of mining explosives and electrical caps from his workplace and played with them, using them like big firecrackers. He later rold me how had hung them up in trees by the cap leg wires and fired them for fun where they didn't damage anything but his neighbor's peace of mind.

I knew nothing about how he had spent his summer vacation- We talked about other things in early fall, and I reloaded a box of cartridges for him to go deer hunting with. That made him so pleased, he came to my Halloween party with a nice house present: A paper shopping bag with a 2 lb. cartridge of Gelmax and an electric blasting cap with the leg wires no longer shunted. My apartment was 8 blocks from the state Capitol building. There was a huge Halloween party outside the door with around 60,000 people nearly shoulder to shoulder for many blocks all around, multiple bands and beer gardens with several police on each block all using radios...

He had just walked right through all of that carrying his paper bag without a care. I sometimes wonder what became of him.

VladimirLem - 22-3-2014 at 12:48

guys...i wouldnt help the threadstarter

at the country where im from there where some documentarys about these stuff (guys who blow up shit as a hobby) and they only took the weirdest guys for interviews and only viewing parts where they told bullshit
i fucking hate the (TV-/radio)media....so let him search for infos at the nearly unlimitid internet for himself...

and dont forget, it could be a fucking ATF or even worse some maniac (breivik u know)

Fantasma4500 - 22-3-2014 at 13:15

im talking to a guy and have been doing so for some time, the kind of person from a country different from the country most of us on SM are from
linked me to a picture of 420g AP drying
luckily got him guided onto mixing that shit INSTANTLY up with AN, he then filled it in 40g amounts into cardboard so it looked like firecrackers, not sure if he added initiator to it, but...
1:1 APAN vs. pure AP
420g
ive said it before and ill say it again: AP's sensitivy and properties are misunderstood and overrated, however, its one of the most dangerous explosives and sadly also most simple

people really need to have some respect for these kind of things, told him to slap one of those things on a metal plate; he did. blew a massive hole in it approx 50 x 50cm wide
had him thinking about what would have happened if the 420g would have gone shit
back in time i had my super k3wlish classmate lighting off about 0.1g armstrongs mix made with matchpowder confined in aluminium foil with a long match, the ringing ears he got made him NEVER underestimate the power of explosive materials
showing him what armtsongs mix put into zinc metal battery casing, then digging up the fragments from it didnt just shock him for life but also me, we found razor sharp pieces of zinc metal, when it was dragged against a piece of paper it made a clear cut..

very impressive -- safety is within the amounts made, stored and used aswell the sorroundings

Metacelsus - 22-3-2014 at 13:24

Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  

About the mixing of ANNM with CTAP....CTAP is very very much soluble into nitromethane and the friction/shock/flame sensitivity is strongly reduced in dissolved state than in the cristal state.


I agree that it is safer once it is dissolved, but the act of mixing it together is hazardous.

As for APAN, it's an even worse idea.

This being said, I have no personal experience with organic peroxides (nor do I ever plan to obtain it).

Winterlight - 22-3-2014 at 13:35

Quote: Originally posted by VladimirLem  
guys...i wouldnt help the threadstarter

at the country where im from there where some documentarys about these stuff (guys who blow up shit as a hobby) and they only took the weirdest guys for interviews and only viewing parts where they told bullshit
i fucking hate the (TV-/radio)media....so let him search for infos at the nearly unlimitid internet for himself...

and dont forget, it could be a fucking ATF or even worse some maniac (breivik u know)


Like i said i dont want to know any alternatives like what is better ect. I dont want to hail this guy who did it and give credit to it anykind. i dont want anyone to get provoked about this theard. i dont want to give bad reputation to this forum,or any other forum in anyway by talking about this. also i dont want to make any hobby chemist or chemistry look bad,or give anykind of stain to a group. like i said im fine if it will be locked. i dont want to violate any federal laws or any forum rules.

And i think i got few good answers. seems like i might be wrong with the setup, and it seems that it might be even more unstable,if it was the setup what packetforger talk about. odds look at this point more for accident caused by careless behavior (since he even went such a public area with explosives)

Im gratefull about those few good answers. as a post starter i kindly ask that dont post material like planning or making this kind of explosive or anykind action that would hurt people.this thread is not right for that kind of stuff and i hope there will never be that kind of topic.

thanks for the answers.

PS: and yes,i would have futher questions but since there is so much people worrying about this topic,ill do my own research for now on.
i will apoligize everyone who didnt like this topic,but im also glad there is people who got worried in this kind of times.




[Edited on 22-3-2014 by Winterlight]

packetforger - 22-3-2014 at 13:43

I believe the OP in this thread is legitimate, it has been ~12 years since the tragic incident outlined, and so I guess local filmmakers (is OP a film student? I kind of think he might be...) are considering making a documentary. After all, such an incident is fairly well remembered in Finland - just ask any Finnish member of the amateur chemistry community and they will be able to elaborate what they know. IIRC, "rc" was heavily involved in some local chemistry forums.

After Breivik, some Finns involved in this hobby who bought off the "czort" supplier recieved "visits" from police about their orders (all customer logs were handed over, supposedly.). I guess in a few years we will have Norwegian film students coming here to ask us about Breivik and about our opinions on the device he built.

Antiswat:
Acetone Peroxide, and HMTD for that matter, are fairly well documented as being very unsafe materials to work with. I personally know one person who has been injured by organic peroxides, leaving him with permanent nerve damage - and have spoken with a few others who have told all kinds of horror stories of premature detonations, "spontaneous"* explosions, and the likes.

I myself have handled them on a number of occasions out of at first youthful ignorance, then later, trying to quantify how nasty these materials are. I never was able to obtain consistent results, even when being careful about repeatable procedures, etc. I swore to never go near them again after seeing how easily initiated by friction and "small" impacts they can be - and I was experimenting in sub-gram quantities. I even had some samples that staunchly failed to detonate, causing panic (for me) as an unexploded device is a nightmare situation - it could potentially go off at any time.

A couple of years ago an associate handed me two "crackers", which he had carried in his backpack for over 100km in cars and buses over bumpy roads and suchlike, each containing ~1 gram of HMTD. A small quantity, but enough to cause permanent disfigurement. I spent the next two days coming up with ideas of how to safely dispose of these things with none of the usual equipment people who experiment with EM's have at their disposal, having had given up the hobby. Probably aged me a couple of years.

420 grams of acetone peroxide is absolutely suicidal. That is "phone" quantities of material, the amount that would absolutely wreck your day. That pile, if ignited, would self confine pretty much right off and go high order (although, I have seen up to 5 grams in a pile simply deflagrate when a lit match is thrown onto it, but that was probably due to dampness.). A stray park, lightbulb fusing, idiot friend walking in with a lit cigarette, something falling onto it, etc... Recipe for disaster.

* Spontaneous in this context meaning where the cause was never determined.

Winterlight - 23-3-2014 at 10:36

yes OP is trying to get to school to study filmmaking. (and before some troll says that when i dont get there i will start blowing ppl up just letting you know that i have 2 good degrees,work, family, im not in anysort of beliver,i dont have anykind of extremism,i respect life and i have told many times in this topic that this is not about building such a thing or developement of the idea for better one)

as more and more i study this more and more it becames mythbusters stuff. with unlimited ammount of money,knowledge and licenses i belive it might be cracked in no time, what it comes to accident caused by chemicals used in case.

however i found usefull videos on youtube where people are smashing both AP and HMTD with hammer and i belive it might be possible to count the force by filming same kind of hammer hit over and over again and counting frames,i read that that different purity affects sensitivity but that is something i need to ignore. if that proves somekind of succes i think its also possible to count force that happens when you move around with pellets in somesort of cartridge,that how ever i undestand can be hard since i cannot know the weight,size or how tightly they were packed,i assume the force is different if they can jump in cartridge.

Aint gonna be that significant document,since all holes are not covered,but that would need lots of funding to hire professionals to do the chemistry and testing then ofcourse license to do it and gather the materials,somebody to with electric knowledge to analyse possible detonator effect,then get the some police evidence. and yet i think there would be holes.

but im far more than happy with the answers and fact that the chemistry part can be solved,like i said all the public records focus on the criminal profile or mental state mostly and whole thing had absolutely huge impact on Finland and chemistry because criminal profile showed (atleast on media) that he was there to kill people (however his dad writed book about it called "Petrin matka myyrmanniin" "Petri´s journey to myyrmanni. focusing on theory it was accident by the behavior and knowledge about his son,it also speculates the timeline and parts in timeline that has no official knowledge) and like i said i dont try to justify this guy,carrying such a thing in public seems even at this point pretty much murder on happening. i just want to show if is there a possible to accident and what kind of chance there is.

anyways i thank you all for answers and will focusing my own research now,maybe if this gets good enough, i will post results here and ask your opinnion about the parts you could answer without breaking any laws. or maybe i got huge ammount of funding and hire you as professionals be part of it.

anyways thanks and good luck.






[Edited on 23-3-2014 by Winterlight]

Uuh!

flashmanc - 23-3-2014 at 15:46

It takes some nerve to ask about such information... There's nothing that you should care about.