Sciencemadness Discussion Board

usage of acetone for blasting gelatin

ecos - 19-3-2014 at 15:26

Hi ,

while preparing blasting gelatin i found two ways :
1- pour NG over NC and keep stirring
2-dissolve NC into hot acetone then add NG after it cool down

I don't understand the benefit of acetone, is it used as a solvent then it will volatile ?

I made a lot of searches but couldn't find an answer for my question

[Edited on 19-3-2014 by ecos]

Bert - 19-3-2014 at 19:14

Ecos, I suggest you restrict yourself to asking questions in the "short question quick answer" thread. The day you ask a question worth starting a new thread over, a moderator will notice and bust one out for you. If you keep starting a new thread for EVERY question, the moderators will notice that too- And may remove your posting privileges.

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Acetone is an efficient solvent for nitrocellulose, even the more highly nitrated grades. It's a processing aid to speed up production, then is evaporated out of the mixture.

Nitroglycerin also will dissolve nitrocellulose of course, but rather slowly compared to acetone. Warming a large ammount of nitroglycerin in a factory setting to speed the dissolving/gelling process is a bit dicier:othan warming up some acetone and nitrocellulose...

The acetone doesn't really need to be heated to dissolve the nitrocellulose, it just speeds the process up a bit.

ecos - 20-3-2014 at 00:07

Thanks Bert, I will take care next time to post in the "short question quick answer" thread, I was not aware of this.

just to finalize the point , so what is the quantity needed for acetone to dissolve 10grams of NC ?

I started to see that it doesn't 100% dissolve all in acetone ! so i should keep adding acetone till all NC disappear ?

NeonPulse - 20-3-2014 at 05:22

you can use excess acetone to dissolve your NC and just let it evaporate until it is the desired consistency, but you do need to shift the outer layer that formed as to expose a fresh area as to open it up to evaporate.
Simply adding the nc to your ng is probably easier but takes longer. Methyl nitrate is a far better solvent for nc in my opinion but is far more volatile than acetone and the methyl nitrate blasting jelly needs to be used very quickly though as it fast becomes useless via evaporating MN if not made airtight.
The methyl nitrate will also attack some plastics so its best to test if its compatible before use. egdn is also a pretty good dissolver of nc too. but you MUST have your nitrocellulose neutral for safety reasons. go that extra mile to ensure this.

Bert - 20-3-2014 at 14:41

What is the source of the nitrocellulose.

Home made? If so, how did you make it- And purify it?

ecos - 21-3-2014 at 00:12

yes , it is homemade

i followed theses steps : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ5q9G1lHUc

but in the last step i boiled the NC in water then dry it

[Edited on 21-3-2014 by ecos]

Bert - 21-3-2014 at 23:51

You didn't use a base to neutralize acid residue in the cotton? Just boiled it in water and dried it?

Please tell me you do not have this stored inside your parents home or anywhere a fire or explosion could injure innocent bystanders?

ecos - 22-3-2014 at 01:41

man !

ofcourse i did neutralization !!! , after that i boiled it to get out the extra remaining acids

plus i do that in my roof , I have a separate room for this !

[Edited on 22-3-2014 by ecos]

Bert - 22-3-2014 at 06:53

Hope it's a big room with a fume hood-

Please take your lab sample of nitro and NC to a safe place now. Spread them thinly on a large sheet of cardboard, light a down wind edge and burn them. Take your phone or a friend's phone and video the burn- Post it to youtube and PM me the link. You may make more later, perhaps. But not until you have learned some theory, a student lab is pointless without theory- And notes.

Go look at the sections on nitrocellulose and smokeless powder manufacture in Tenney Davis' Chemistry of Powder and Explosives- see what is done commercially to stabilize nitrocellulose.

Ask some more questions after you have found answers to the below:

Look for the solubility information for different solvents and NC of different degrees of nitration. Think about why your NC behaved as it did on trying to dissolve it?

Then look for a chemical BESIDES the bases- carbonates, ammonia, etc. that could be put into the later (2nd) boiling water bath to help desorb acid residue from the fibers and ensure a longer stability. Come back with a name.

Then ask some more questions based on these readings. Write the questions carefully, well enough so someone who doesn't know much of what you do will understand, without assuming anything. Go over what you write, think of how to say the most with the fewest words. Spell check it when finished.

This is your homework for the week- If you don't do the homework, you will not get to go on to the next class.

Class dismissed!




[Edited on 22-3-2014 by Bert]

Fantasma4500 - 22-3-2014 at 12:47

if you decide to use the NC for mix-secondaries then you need to neutralize it more than just well or use it straight away, as many other secondaries gets quite sensitive with acid present...

you could perhaps dissolve the NC in acetone and add some drops of NH4OH solution, then let it dry out and crush up the dried out plastic

if you use NC for main charge -- no problems
but mixing NC that has not been boiled for several hours in NaHCO3 solution is just a bad idea

Metacelsus - 22-3-2014 at 13:27

Quote: Originally posted by ecos  

of course i did neutralization !!! , after that i boiled it to get out the extra remaining acids


If any acid remained, you didn't neutralize it.

Bert - 22-3-2014 at 15:37

The technology to make good, long lasting NC was well known before WWII. I have WWII US 30-06 ammunition loaded with wartime single base powder that is still just fine, only a little lower velocity than the new stuff- WW II surplus IMR powder is still being sold & used by reloaders around here, very little has gone over the edge and degraded.

It's all in COPAE. Nothing out of reach if you can read the books, have chemicals to make NC, the ability to heat water and can piss, you can stabilize this plenty well for a little storage.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2415

ecos - 25-3-2014 at 09:09

Quote: Originally posted by Bert  
Hope it's a big room with a fume hood-

Please take your lab sample of nitro and NC to a safe place now. Spread them thinly on a large sheet of cardboard, light a down wind edge and burn them. Take your phone or a friend's phone and video the burn- Post it to youtube and PM me the link. You may make more later, perhaps. But not until you have learned some theory, a student lab is pointless without theory- And notes.

Go look at the sections on nitrocellulose and smokeless powder manufacture in Tenney Davis' Chemistry of Powder and Explosives- see what is done commercially to stabilize nitrocellulose.

Ask some more questions after you have found answers to the below:

Look for the solubility information for different solvents and NC of different degrees of nitration. Think about why your NC behaved as it did on trying to dissolve it?

Then look for a chemical BESIDES the bases- carbonates, ammonia, etc. that could be put into the later (2nd) boiling water bath to help desorb acid residue from the fibers and ensure a longer stability. Come back with a name.

Then ask some more questions based on these readings. Write the questions carefully, well enough so someone who doesn't know much of what you do will understand, without assuming anything. Go over what you write, think of how to say the most with the fewest words. Spell check it when finished.

This is your homework for the week- If you don't do the homework, you will not get to go on to the next class.

Class dismissed!
[Edited on 22-3-2014 by Bert]


I think my NC has much Nitrogen (more than 13% N) which made it insoluble!

i checked the "Preparation of Pyrocellulose", the most interesting thing , he didn't use sodium bicarbonate for neutralization , he only tried washing and boiling.

thanks for the reference and the HW :)