Sciencemadness Discussion Board

Fustration with ETN

TurboZfreak - 11-3-2014 at 14:05

Hello All,
I have attempted 2 different ways to synthesize ETN. First attempt was with Kno3 with Hso4. the trouble I had was the kno3 would not dissolve, I later attribute that to being low temp. I keep the acid at 5c. I discarded that. My 2nd attempt was to use 36ml 98% hso4 with 17ml hno3 96%~ which was distilled from hso4 98% and pure kno3. After the acids were mixed I put them in the freezer to bring them to -5c to start and they with in a 500ml beaker in a salted ice bath. I added 6g of erythritol, .5g every min or so to keep the temp under 15c, I only once had a spike to 21c but it came back down. After final addition I stirred mix for an additional 20mins and then crashed on to water at 10c. ETN or what I think was ETN precipitated immediately and I cooled the solution to 5c just to make sure all was done. I then filtered though double coffee filter. Then I used sodium bicarb solution to neutralize it and then washed 2 times with distilled water. I Let it dry for 7 hours and I got a nice fluffy batch of crystal. Total weight came to 3.25g. I subjected a small amount to the hammer test and received a small report. I figured it was good so tried a small amount under flame test and all it did was melt.... This is where I got lost. I recrystallized it with 40ml methanol heated to 45c in a water bath and all of it dissolved then I crashed it again into distilled water at 10c. Again it precipitated very well and I cooled it to 5c just to make sure it was done. Filtered and washed twice. Hammer test again I get a report but under flame just melts with no flame. Am I misunderstanding the deflagration properties of ETN? From what i have read in numerous places is that ETN can be used as a Primary/Booster? Is that not correct? I had planned on using it as a Primary to RDX. I have used HMTD in the past but I am not a fan of organic peroxides. Please any input would be appreciated.
Thanks

packetforger - 11-3-2014 at 14:23

ETN is a secondary, however in some circumstances it can make the DDT (deflagration to detonation transition). I would not rely on it in any way as a primary explosive though, as you will wind up with a lot of unexploded devices if you do!

TurboZfreak - 11-3-2014 at 14:30

Quote: Originally posted by packetforger  
ETN is a secondary, however in some circumstances it can make the DDT (deflagration to detonation transition). I would not rely on it in any way as a primary explosive though, as you will wind up with a lot of unexploded devices if you do!


What do you recommend? Is ETN a waste of time then since I can make RDX very easily? Should I go back to using HMTD as a primary? My biggest concern with HMTD was it is very corrosive and I was warned that this could cause premature detonation and or weak or no detonation. The cap which I have used with mixed results is 1g of RDX using an arbor press to compress it, and .8g of HMTD with a sprinkle of gun powder/black powder as initiator. The tubes I have used are both 1/4" aluminum and copper.

packetforger - 11-3-2014 at 14:53

ETN is certainly be cheaper than RDX in the long run, in my opinion, if you are making caps.

I would advise using plastic cap casings over metal as well, drinking straws worked fine back when I experimented with such things. But that is because of a near morbid fear of all things metal near my energetics!

In my opinion you should look into a better primary than organic peroxides. If you have access to inorganic nitrites (f.ex: sodium nitrite) you can, with some work, go as far as azides or similar. The user "Microtik" is a verifiable expert at this, so read over his posts.

TurboZfreak - 11-3-2014 at 15:20

Quote: Originally posted by packetforger  
ETN is certainly be cheaper than RDX in the long run, in my opinion, if you are making caps.

I would advise using plastic cap casings over metal as well, drinking straws worked fine back when I experimented with such things. But that is because of a near morbid fear of all things metal near my energetics!

In my opinion you should look into a better primary than organic peroxides. If you have access to inorganic nitrites (f.ex: sodium nitrite) you can, with some work, go as far as azides or similar. The user "Microtik" is a verifiable expert at this, so read over his posts.


Just looked into DDNP and Lead Azide, both look relatively straight forward. Any pros and cons to either?

roXefeller - 11-3-2014 at 15:40

As Rosco would say, lead azide is unequivocal. If you were to go with one before the other, go lead azide. It needs very little to set off the RDX or ETN in the cap and doesn't take a fancy (or frustrating) or frustrating design. See this thread (https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=43...) to get a feel for the two.

NeonPulse - 11-3-2014 at 16:10

i would reccomeng going with the lead azide as its initiating abilities are great, its easy to prepare and a little goes a long way. as for ddnp i havent actually made any because it seems to be a bit overrated and more difficult to prepare and get right i recall reading about several failed attempts and low yeild. lead azide is the winner. ETN is a great secondary and if you heat it in foil you will get a report.

jock88 - 12-3-2014 at 18:50


You could try making exploding bridge wire detonators. You would just need ETN. It should be easy to do as ETN is more sensitive that PETN (usually used).
A capacitor and some high voltage needed. All safer in the long run as no primary is needed.

Fantasma4500 - 13-3-2014 at 07:46

im really not quite the fan of people implying something they have no experience in will result in alot of charges gone shit

if you use more than a 2mm fuse to attempt to set it off you will have quite the success
overkill is reliability, and it has been shown that even 2mm visco could set off ETN, so a straw sized strand of rocket fuel sorrounded by ETN wrapped in aluminium foil should do

another member had posted a picture about using 3 pieces of 2mm visco fuse to initiate it

try taking the absolute tip of a knife of ETN then dump it in aluminium foil and wrap tightly then hold into a flame with pliers etc.

i think what could have gone wrong with your synth would happen to be that you used HSO4, usually H2SO4 is used and i dont know much about 'HSO4's properties, sounds strange?
you could let the nitration mix stand for 22-24H at 5*C (aka fridge) covered by aluminium foil in the top
using cold water to dump the mixture into and let it stand for an hour both when recrystallizing and just neutralizing

also, shoot the ppt in the filter with water so it all gathers in the bottom/center of the filter, this should increase yield as theres often a smaller yield loss by stuck ppt in the filter

another interesting thing.. if you recrystallize above mentioned material with acetone as in just letting it evaporate off it is quite resistant to shockheating

packetforger - 13-3-2014 at 11:21

Antiswat - many years ago, when I used to nitrate a lot of polyols, I did a fair amount of attempts to get ETN to work as a primary, with no real success except getting it to undergo a low order detonation.

ETN, and many other nitrated polyols, can undergo low order or high order detonation. High order detonation is where they actually go bang with their full potential, wheras low order is a "weak" detonation with significantly lower VoD. This is important to note, as both "go bang", but only one of those is useful for any real work.

If you have some method of getting consistent, high order detonations of ETN from a fuse and no primary explosive, I am all ears. Until then, OP and others should simply work on their cap designs and using superior primaries to organic peroxides.

TurboZfreak - 13-3-2014 at 18:26

Thanks all for the input. Antiswat, you were correct, that was a typo it is h2s04 "SF" was just frustrated and forgot the 2.

I have found another way to detonate from using a different approach with very stable materials. I am working on a full write up with 5 witness plates, etc. I have pressed 10 of these so far and all have fired. Still trying to confirm if they are going high order. I dont want to waste any of my rdx testing it just yet. I was successful in 2 attempts to det some vaselate "90% KCI03, 10% Petroleum Jelly. First charge was 50g then 2nd was 225g. Both were impressive. I will not reveal info just yet because I dont want to start a flame war.... But.. hold tight, it will come soon when I have concrete write up and evidence. :D

Fantasma4500 - 15-3-2014 at 09:37

please film the charges and link to it..
not to mention if you use metal that could potentially go in your direction, as in faced downwards and not away from you then you should take cover

also, its H2SO4, or as bfesser would have rageeditted it: H2SO4